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Children of the Fatherland: MP conversion game

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Irsh Faq said:
I find it hard to reconcile these positions. If, despite the Persians getting help from Byz, launching a pre-emptive attack, and being helped by major bugs with your armies, you have successfully defended every single valuable province and are now recapturing your old land and Roman Syria, it does not seem like you are weaker than Persia alone in theater.
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I am weaker than Persia and Byzantion. The only reason I have held is that they have had to simultaneously fight of bloody half-the-map Russia!, had vR be AI that session, or not felt like helping me, I would have been done for.
 
FrozenWall said:
I am weaker than Persia and Byzantion. The only reason I have held is that they have had to simultaneously fight of bloody half-the-map Russia!, had vR be AI that session, or not felt like helping me, I would have been done for.
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Persia and Byzantion together is a completely different thing. I think it is not that unusual in a MP game for one player's realm to be weaker than two others put together. Personally I find it odd that you feel the only way Egypt can exist as a viable and defensible nation is to be a superpower capable of fighting fighting off several nations at the same time by itself - since you being a superpower stronger than many of your neighbors put together is probably a large part of what led to half the map ganging on you in a world war.
 
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Ah, it is good to see, that after a long hiatus, the CotF boys are still slinging the propaganda around. Although I am disappointed that Golle is not more involved. I assume he is biding his time.
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Trust me, Im as ivolved as my status ans non-entinity in the world allows!
 
Irsh Faq said:
I think it is not that unusual in a MP game for one player's realm to be weaker than two others put together.
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You can count in Croatia on my side, and I'd still lose. There is a massive difference between 400.000 in one clump and 400.000 streching from one edge of the map to the other. The fact that we have equal numbers simply does not mean we are equal in military power, even tho one might think it should.

since you being a superpower stronger than many of your neighbors put together is what led to half the map ganging on you in a world war.
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You're right, because Persia and Byz never attacked me back when I was half their size and took my land, oh wait...

restore your status as unchallenged superpower in the Middle East
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If I have ever been "unchallengable", how come I have never won a war?
 
The fact that we have equal numbers simply does not mean we are equal in military power, even tho one might think it should.
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You don't have equal numbers. You have twice as much manpower as either of them, roughly, or so I am told.

FrozenWall said:
If I have ever been "unchallengable", how come I have never won a war?
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Never won a war? :wacko: I recall you winning a war or two against KOM at least. That's how you came by Antioch in the first place isn't it?

But anyway, by unchallenged superpower I mean that your peace offers was designed to make you alone stronger than your Middle Eastern enemies put together. I am willing to accept that the distance makes you somewhat weaker than them both put together currently, but I don't think this is such a crippling thing as you seem to (the being weaker, not the distance). As I said, one nation alone being less strong than two nations put together isn't wildly unusual and crippling. It's not like KOM alone could fight off Russia and West Rome at the same time, or Persia would be able to fight off you and KOM at the same time. Yet somehow they manage to survive.

I'm sure I don't need to remind you, but since you asked, you lost the last war when not only your neighbors but also nations as distant as Denmark piled on you to finally bring you down. And even that peace left you one of the three strongest nations in the game.

So I guess I don't buy that you need to be restored to superpower status, at expense of naitons smaller than you, to even have a chance.
 
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Irsh Faq said:
For my part it is partly because I am assuming that Croatia will be stronger once Poland finishes recovering from being burned to the ground by its kings. I may be wrong in this, I don't know. But as of recently I heard that Poland was not yet producing much income for you, whereas it doubtless eventually will if you manage to hang onto it, so it is a matter of time and Croatia is not doomed to being a minor power with its current borders.
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The Polish lands have indeed finally recovered. However, my new manpower level is about 130k. KoM's is about 250-300k depending on his king. Even with the old Constantinople demands, we would merely be equal in manpower.



Irsh Faq said:
I find it hard to reconcile these positions. If, despite the Persians getting help from Byz, launching a pre-emptive attack, and being helped by major bugs with your armies, you have successfully defended every single valuable province and are now recapturing your old land and Roman Syria, it does not seem like you are weaker than Persia alone in theater.
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Persia and Bulgaria both have to split their time attacking Frosty and defending against me and vR. They only have half their military attention on Frosty, and he was still pushed back at the beginning of the war.



Irsh Faq said:
Persia and Byzantion together is a completely different thing. I think it is not that unusual in a MP game for one player's realm to be weaker than two others put together. Personally I find it odd that you feel the only way Egypt can exist as a viable and defensible nation is to be a superpower capable of fighting fighting off several nations at the same time by itself - since you being a superpower stronger than many of your neighbors put together is probably a large part of what led to half the map ganging on you in a world war.
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I find it odd you continually refer to the Egyptian-Russian part of the war as a single entity, but always separate Bulgaria and Persia in their MP numbers. Bulgaria and Persia function as a single entity with identical foreign policies. Separating them as you talk of them is a logical fallacy. One has never attacked Egypt or Russia without the other at his side. Thus, when you consider that they together have about 500k manpower all centered in a very small area, and Frosty alone tops out at about 400k manpower spread out over half the map, Persia and Bulgaria are MUCH stronger than Egypt in the middle east.


Irsh Faq said:
You don't have equal numbers. You have twice as much manpower as either of them, roughly, or so I am told.
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You've been told wrong. Quite wrong. KoM has topped out at 300k before. Persia topped out at 400k before. Frosty has topped out at 450k before. It is a far, far different situation than it seems you have been led to believe.
 
OrangeYoshi said:
I find it odd you continually refer to the Egyptian-Russian part of the war as a single entity.
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How so? I separated out Egypt as much as I did Persia and East Rome.

You've been told wrong. Quite wrong. KoM has topped out at 300k before. Persia topped out at 400k before. Frosty has topped out at 450k before. It is a far, far different situation than it seems you have been led to believe.
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Okay, who is right? KOM said he and Persia have ~400k together, and said specifically that they both together were about equal to Egypt alone at the start of the war in simple numbers. You are saying they have 700k together, way more than Egypt. Clearly someone is way off in their estimates.
 
Irsh Faq said:
Never won a war? :wacko: I recall you winning a war or two against KOM at least. That's how you came by Antioch in the first place IIRC.
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Nope, one of his kids inherited the Byz title and he switched to that character. The Antioch guy got illoyal and pledged to me. The same with all my expansions, I have attacked rebellious AI, sniped vassals, inherited stuff, recieved land in diplomatic deals. but never won a war. I am a diplomat.

but I don't think this is such a crippling thing as you seem to (the being weaker, not the distance).
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And yet, I always lose the wars?
As I said, one nation alone being less strong than two nations put together isn't wildly unusual and crippling.
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Being unable to defend myself is quite crippling.

one of the three strongest nations in the game.
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That depends entirely on how you define "strongest". I am a giant on clay feet walking on stilts. Again; never won a war.
at expense of naitons smaller than you
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Since they have been allied the entire game, and tried to take my land the entire game, I admit I do not see them as separate. I see one Perso-Byzantine nation, since they are never separate in their actions. If they could be separated they would not need pruning. Me and Russia on the other hand have only been speaking to each other on a continuous basis for a session or two.

You realize of course the initial maps are never what you end up with. I never actually expected to actually gain back all they had taken from me, but when haggling you dont start low. There has since been much bartering, as always, and we are waiting for the Europeans to tell us what they believe is an amicable peace.

Okay, who is right? KOM said he and Persia have ~400k together, and said specifically that they both together were about equal to Egypt alone at the start of the war in simple numbers. You are saying they have 700k together, way more than Egypt. Clearly someone is way off in their estimates.
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It depends on the current king and steward, and varies wildly between sessions. After the last peace I was about equal to Persia. When this current war started they were about 120.000 bigger than me. Even at my strongest I was barely larger than the two put together.
 
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FrozenWall said:
Nope, one of his kids inherited the Byz title and he switched to that character. The Antioch guy got illoyal and pledged to me. The same with all my expansions, I have attacked rebellious AI, sniped vassals, inherited stuff, recieved land in diplomatic deals. but never won a war. I am a diplomat.
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Holy Lands and Balkans Peace Process: The Camp Dukas Accords
The Syrian coast, the islands (including Duke titles), and Tangiers, to the Caliphate.
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Seems odd to write a peace treaty without a war?

Being unable to defend myself is quite crippling.
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If being likely to lose a war while fighting alone against two neighbors at once equates to being unable to defend oneself and being crippled, then I would think every nation in the game except Russia (and possibly West Rome?) is near-permanently defenseless and crippled.

Come on. You get what I'm saying; that you're stronger than either one of them alone, but you argue that in order to even be survivable you must be stronger than both together. That seems ridiculous. Switch shoes and it is shown how ridiculous it is. KOM isn't stronger than you and Russia together, yet he has survived so far. Loire isn't stronger than Denmark and Bavaria together, yet it is not defenseless and crippled.

a third manpower number which agrees with neither KOM's nor Yoshi's
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I give up trying to understand the manpower.
 
Irsh Faq said:
I give up trying to understand the manpower.
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The manpower in CK fluctuates rather heavily, and as such you can get two vastly different numbers for the same nation just by measuring at different points in time.
Naturally all the parties you got numbers from measured at a time where the number was convenient to help their point.
There is basetax which directly translates to manpower and does not fluctuate, so if you know the basetax you have some kind of objective "average" manpower.
Unfortunately combined basetax of a kingdom can not be seen in the ingame user interface.
 
Irsh Faq said:
Come on. You get what I'm saying; that you're stronger than either one of them alone, but you argue that in order to even be survivable you must be stronger than both together. That seems ridiculous. Switch shoes and it is shown how ridiculous it is. KOM isn't stronger than you and Russia together, yet he has survived so far. Loire isn't stronger than Denmark and Bavaria together, yet it is not defenseless and crippled.
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Egypt and Russia do not act as a single entity.

Denmark and Bavaria do not act as a single entity.

Bulgaria and Persia do act as a single entity.
 
Kolibri said:
The manpower in CK fluctuates rather heavily, and as such you can get two vastly different numbers for the same nation just by measuring at different points in time.
Naturally all the parties you got numbers from measured at a time where the number was convenient to help their point.
There is basetax which directly translates to manpower and does not fluctuate, so if you know the basetax you have some kind of objective "average" manpower.
Unfortunately combined basetax of a kingdom can not be seen in the ingame user interface.
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For example, I gave the maximum I had seen the nations at since the start of the big NAP after the Russia war (not counting the Persian necromancers that got Persia's MP up to 600k). Frosty gave the MP numbers strictly at the start of the war. I'm guessing KoM gave the MP numbers at this point of the war, which are often misleading due to whether or not regiments are mobilized, attrition, etc.
 
OrangeYoshi said:
Egypt and Russia do not act as a single entity.

Denmark and Bavaria do not act as a single entity.

Bulgaria and Persia do act as a single entity.
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So? It doesn't really matter whether they follow a similar foreign policy or not - and given that they have both lost significant territory to Egypt, one might expect a similar foreign policy against Egypt. But even if they were one nation, being weaker than one neighbor isn't the same as being defenseless and crippled either. Everyone who borders West Rome or Russia seems to prove that point.
 
Irsh Faq said:
Seems odd to write a peace treaty without a war?
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Wuh? It was not a peace treaty. It was a diplomatic treaty for cleaning up the map after Antioch pledged to me, and I decided to give east Anatolia back to KoM. There was no war involved. Where did you get that from?

land taking dispute
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They attacked me, I want reparations, they want to dismember me. All reasonable goals from our own individual points of view, lets just leave it there.

a third manpower number which agrees with neither KOM's nor Yoshi's
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Again, manpower is not a constant like in other paradox games. If your stewart dies you can litteraly loose a quarter of you mp from one day to the other.

So? It doesn't really matter whether they follow a similar foreign policy or not - and given that they have both lost significant territory to Egypt, one might expect a similar foreign policy against Egypt.
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Identical policy, they have never done anything as a separate entity.

Point of order; the Syrian conflicts started back when I was smaller than the two of them, and they attacked me and took my land session 6, long before I could have a chance at defending myself, before I took Jerusalem. Their losses are a result of me fighting back against their never ceasing aggression.

All their losses are their own fault, yet they come sniveling when the kid they used to give wedgies in grade school returns for payback years later and turns out to be twice their size.
 
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Irsh Faq said:
So? It doesn't really matter whether they follow a similar foreign policy or not - and given that they have both lost significant territory to Egypt, one might expect a similar foreign policy against Egypt. But even if they were one nation, being weaker than one neighbor isn't the same as being defenseless and crippled either. Everyone who borders West Rome or Russia seems to prove that point.
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Russia doesn't declare war on every one of its neighbors every few decades.

You're comparing the geopolitical situation as if the actions of the rulers doesn't matter. It does. vR doesn't behave like KoM. Carillon doesn't behave like Foels. Ike doesn't behave like Frosty. Golle doesn't behave like Jakalo. You can't take one of the most important factors in politics - the behavior of the rulers - out of the equation when you consider the world's geopolitical situation.
 
FrozenWall said:
They attacked me, I want reparations, they want to dismember me. All reasonable goals from our own individual points of view, lets just leave it there.
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Well I'm just opposed to two of the three strongest nations in the world taking big chunks of territory off weaker neighbors. Byz partisanship plays a factor but it's mostly that.
 
Foelsgaard said:
I have three neighbors: One is a monster and one is a bastard.
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I'm not condemning the fact that you act as a single entity. Up until this point, Croatia and Russia have also acted as a single entity (usually).

I'm merely pointing out that the actions and alliances of rulers must be taken into account when considering the geopolitical situation of neighboring states.
 
Irsh Faq said:
Well I'm just opposed to two of the three strongest nations in the world taking big chunks of territory off weaker neighbors. Byz partisanship plays a factor but it's mostly that.
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But the three strongest nations in the world are the HRE, Russia, and Persia. Actually, you could replace the HRE with Bavaria, depending on advisors. Considering Frosty as one of the strongest nations is again a fallacy. He is spread so far out that he could lose a war against myself or Spain if he were invading us.

For example: I only have a quarter or a third of his manpower, but I have it all in one place. It only takes a month or two to go from Poland to Zadar. It would take Frosty 4 or more months to walk all the way across his empire, and he could never bring 150k to bear against me at one time. I would always have local superiority.
 
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