Children of the Fatherland: MP conversion game

[King of Men]

"Hey OY, want to join my big anti-Russian coalition I'm forming?!"

And if you knew Russia and the Caliphate were going to attack you, you would never dream of looking for some allies to help you out? As it happens I still have the PM I sent you, after I heard that Frosty would be coming for us:

If, hypothetically, Russia or the Caliphate were to be aggressive, how would you feel about adding your forces to a coalition and gaining some land from them?

Note the conditional! I proposed a defensive alliance.

[FrozenWall]

Those Christians. So cute.

To our defense that particular cartoonist is a quite poor representation of the teachings we espouse.

Note the conditional! I proposed a defensive alliance.

You then decree offence is the best defence and invade, making that label quite meaningless.

gaining some land from them

Ah yes, so you yourself had a preprepared an alliance with a plan to take land in a defensive war. Sounds suspiciously similar to another case recently condemned by some certain parties...

[OrangeYoshi]

luls

Those Christians. So cute.

Keep worshiping your moon gods! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

@ KoM: And a point of question, if I had joined your defensive alliance, would this "war of pre-emptive defense" have dragged me in on your side?

Although I am curious where you heard that Frosty was getting all aggressive all of the sudden.

[King of Men]

@ KoM: And a point of question, if I had joined your defensive alliance, would this "war of pre-emptive defense" have dragged me in on your side?

Had you joined us, two things would have changed: Firstly, we would have felt a lot more secure, and might have thought it un-necessary to do the pre-emptive strike. Indeed, as demonstrated by these negotiations, diplomatically it is better to be attacked than to be the attacker. It was only our feeling of having a very bad tactical position that we needed to redress somehow that made us go for the pre-emption.

The second thing is, having agreed to help us you would naturally have had input on our strategy. If you had refused to join a pre-emptive strike, for example, but agreed to help us if Russia attacked, we would have accepted the loss of tactical surprise in exchange for a larger total manpower pool.

[Gollevainen]

and again, Finland was not send any PMs

[oddman]

Also, I never took your lunch money! I wasn't even involved in that war!

The lighter green colour seems to imply your taking my lunch money.

Which is an equally baseless accusation, and the Andalusian court resents this misrepresentation of Andalusian-Loire friendship.

[FrozenWall]

misrepresentation of Andalusian-Loire friendship.

The comic implied my lunchmoney was taken, and that al-Andalus was kept out of the conflict. Loire was presented to me as a part of the coalition, in spirit if not in deeds.

[Foelsgaard]

I was perfectly happy with just the Fatimid vanilla startpos in the levant. When I reached it I offered Foels long-term peace and recognition of our border, he in not to veiled terms informed me he intended to take it away from me. So expecting he would do exactly what he told me he intended to do I started sniping his vassals so he would have less regiments with which to attack me, and thus I gained most of Iraq as buffer for the coming assault.

You took Jerusalem, stole a bunch of other vassals and then arrogantly asked me to be your vassal-ally in return for nothing.

[FrozenWall]

You took Jerusalem, stole a bunch of other vassals and then arrogantly asked me to be your vassal-ally in return for nothing.

I allied Jerusalem, part of the same realm as me, you then attacked it and annexed it. Cutting me of from my land in Syria. It then freed itself from you, after you did not do anything about it for a session I reintegrated it into the Egyptian realm. At this point I held roughly the same territory as vanilla Fatimid Egypt, after some of your vassals pledged to me or my vassals I figured I could barter them back to you for a recognition of the vanilla border.

here is what the world looked like when I attacked Jerusalem:


As you can see me taking AI Jerusalem was a absolutely massive power grab against the poor defenseless Abbasids, (who were so large they didn't even bother retaking the duchy after it rebelled.)

I offered peaceful relations to a player many times larger than me, you then responded by demanding 5 duchies from me (13 provs in total) in return for accepting. Take a look at that map and tell me if that was something I could accept, take a look at that map and ask if I should be scared when you said any other border was unacceptable? Of course I took action to weaken you.

[Foelsgaard]

I offered peaceful relations to a player many times larger than me, you then responded by demanding 5 duchies from me (13 provs in total) in return for accepting. Take a look at that map and tell me if that was something I could accept, take a look at that map and ask if I should be scared when you said any other border was unacceptable? Of course I took action to weaken you.

That conversation took place around the 12th of September last year.

THIS is the map from that time:

[Foelsgaard]

Btw, I did not annex Jerusalem. It was independent when I joined the game (second session). I attacked and vassalized it.

[FrozenWall]

Btw, I did not annex Jerusalem

I was indeed using the word in its IRL meaning, but yes force-vass in game terms. The results however are no different, so this is just semantics. You attacked my Ally and incorporated his lands into your realm.

That conversation took place around the 12th of September last year.
THIS is the map from that time:

Obvious propaganda is obvious. That screen is from session 11, 3 sessions after you were presented my offers of peace. Seriously, you do realize anybody can just check my sig and see right through your claims?

Jerusalem freed itself from you session 7, on the 24th of July. After you spent your time not retaking it AI Jerusalem was then taken by me midway through session 8, on the 21st of August.

After session 8 I was in no uncertain terms informed you would not accept that border. Any numbskull understands you did not intend to file a diplomatic protest against me, but were threatening with force, so I preemptively (we sure get a lot of mileage out of that word, don't we?) launched a diplomatic campaign against your vassals. And by default also against you ally KoM, with whom you had attacked me session 6 and taken Damascus and Baalbek.

Again; your screen is from session 11, almost a month later, and shows the aftermath of the campaign that was the natural result of you declaring yourselves my enemy by attacking both me and my ally Jerusalem.

[Foelsgaard]

This is the link to your post

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...1#post11628646

It says 11-09-2010 22:42

11th of september 2010

[FrozenWall]

It says 11-09-2010 22:42

11th of september 2010

Hm, I stand corrected. This is what you get for getting used to the American calendar system (mm-dd-yyyy as opposed to rotw dd-mm-yyyy)

The session# stand however; Jerusalem was reintegrated into Egypt session 8, after which offers of peace followed. You misleadingly showed a map from session 11.

I have edited my above post to remove the calendraric mistakes.

[carillon]

Hm, I stand corrected. This is what you get for getting used to the American calendar system (mm-dd-yyyy as opposed to rotw dd-mm-yyyy)

The session# stand however; Jerusalem was reintegrated into Egypt session 8, after which offers of peace followed. You misleadingly showed a map from session 11.

I have edited my above post to remove the calendraric mistakes.

Haha, man that gets me too. Its frusterating, gah.

[King of Men]

I shall propose a peace based roughly on the current lines of occupation, with some border adjustments to make them pretty. Here is the prewar situation:



Here are the changes due to the war; note that most of these provinces have already been annexed, but some are just occupied.



Finally, here is my suggested peace, with the Kingdom of Jerusalem (to be ruled by a Tilius) in white. Observe that the Caliphate gains Baalbek and regains Rhodes and Cyprus, while retaining land access to its rich provinces in inland Syria. Russia gains some provinces on the Black Sea, and some on the Caspian. A buffer state between Persia and the Caliphate should cool tensions there; as Frosty has repeatedly pointed out, the land itself is not very valuable, being mainly desert, so there should be no objection on that ground. Besides which, most of what would go to Jerusalem is currently Persian anyway. Observe that Gaza remains Egyptian, while the West Bank goes to a crusader Kingdom; I trust this is acceptable to all involved.



Note that Foels has not had a chance to comment on this, so take it as a basis for discussion rather than a firm offer; the week passes quickly, so I felt it better to get something out there now.

[Foelsgaard]

The session# stand however; Jerusalem was reintegrated into Egypt session 8, after which offers of peace followed. You misleadingly showed a map from session 11.

Oh, the map only referred to the infamous 5 duchy demand. Sorry if that was unclear.

I still think that taking Jerusalem (which was never a part of Egypt beforehand as the second map shows) and then expecting peace is a bit much.


The peace offer above looks fine to me. But Jerusalem has to be muslim.

[King of Men]

I would obviously prefer a Christian Jerusalem, but since I have no troops in the area I'll bow to my ally's preference in this regard.

[FrozenWall]

I shall propose a peace based roughly on the current lines of occupation, with some border adjustments to make them pretty. Here is the prewar situation:

A peace based on the fact that you have temporarily annexed a few vassals will not be accepted, peace will be based on longterm ability to win war, which is in our favor. Several of the provs annexed by Persia are being sieged back, as the strategical lessons we are learning on the fly begin to turn the tide. And there is no way I'm giving up twentytwo provinces, especially not the third holiest site in Islam, when you don't occupy a single demesne province! You do no longer have the steam to keep the push going, while we do.

A buffer state between Persia and the Caliphate

I want a buffer (preferably owned by myself) to protect Jerusalem from being taken from me, and you offer a bufferstate that includes Jerusalem! Make one that includes Baghdad and we'll talk.

as Frosty has repeatedly pointed out, the land itself is not very valuable,

First; I said their temporary loss is not of significant consequence to my war effort, permanent loss is something entirely else. I note also that your demands include the lands around Jerusalem, which are not sand, and not in your hands. The entirety of the land you ask from me is worth 30 basetax, double what Alexandria gives. We have not suffered any defeat warranting such a consession.

I suppose we shall discuss among the defending powers if we wish to offer a proposal in turn, before we start next session. But as far as bartering goes you offer amounts to you asking us to give you the car for free. Start low indeed.

[Gollevainen]

just make Tilius a muslem!