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Loses slightly? I wouldn't call losing 68 base tax worth of provinces "losing slightly"..

Well yes, I do not consider the lands you hold in the middle of Germany "yours".
 
Hmm... it occurs to me that what peanuts desire above all things is drama. So, let me give you some extracts of our current discussions.

Fivoin said:
Lotharingia will not be content with borders that portray it as a loser of this war as long as its armies are still in the field. The least I will settle with is a border that reflects the status quo ante bellum in worth, smoothened or not.

von Rundstedt said:
The question is: Do people want to set a precedent in which a civil war means loosing 90% of one's territory?

If they want to do that, they should be aware that I'll be there to snatch every single vassal revolting from them at any point in the game.

Fivoin said:
I would lose 68 bt in this peace deal that you are proposing which is more than 1/4 of my nation and slightly less than the entire polish realm. It is a peace that I would grudgingly consider if my half of my realm was occupied and my armies broken and scattered to the wind and it sets a bad precedence for upcoming wars. I will make a counterproposal later today/tomorrow that I find more reasonable than this arbitrary attempt to force a peace were borders are seemingly changed on a whim with for example Poland gaining Lotharingian land.

King of Men said:
To create pretty borders between Gothia and Lotharingia is one thing; MJER is an eyesore. But to just give away a fifth of Lotharingia is quite another matter. The Fiat powers speak of bad precedents; how about the bad precedent of a large power forcing a smaller one to give away territory? Munich, anyone? (And incidentally, something rather similar applies to southern Italy.) Are the kings of Europe sovereign, or are they dogs to be called to heel when their masters are displeased? Such terms as are offered Lotharingia are not commonly won without blood being spilled. This is not the diplomacy of compromise; it is the diplomacy of arrogance and power.

I suggest that the powers currently at war with Germany should state what they want; Rome has already done so, as has Denmark. It does not seem to me that either the Roman or the Danish demand is particularly extravagant; and since Golle doesn't want to play Galicia and oddman opposes it, I'll consider that point moot, and withdraw it. In other words, I am not demanding any territory I don't already possess; nor is Denmark. Unless France or Lotharingia is about to demand half of Germany, this is all rather a lot of noise about very little actual harm. Then we can certainly consider how to prettify the borders, on a basis of equal exchange for equal value.

Indeed, now that I think about it, the Fiat actually takes rather more land from Gothia than the alleged rapacity of all the powers currently at war with it is likely to do. Perhaps we should invite Fasquardon to join us in resisting it!

Frosty said:
Lotharingia has overreached, equal exchange is out of the question. The other option is war and reduction. He has taken to much from another player and racked up to much human bb. When we tell him he must relinquish some land to get himself under the bb-war limit shuffling some land around is not going to work.

King of Men said:
Indeed, now that I think about it, the Fiat actually takes rather more land from Gothia than the alleged rapacity of all the powers currently at war with it is likely to do. Perhaps we should invite Fasquardon to join us in resisting it!

You cannot claim we are reducing both Germany and its aggressors, pick one!

Germany would be significantly smaller if we did not intervene, specifically because of Lotharingia.

King of Men said:
This is not the diplomacy of compromise; it is the diplomacy of arrogance and power.

Thinking you could wreck a player nation without consequence is arrogance. Neither me nor Russia stands to gain from this. Indeed I will lose significantly in spain. Not to mention the cost of gold and men to calm certain belligerents down...

King of Men said:
I certainly can. Specifically, you are reducing Gothia, you are reducing Lotharingia, and you are increasing Toledo at their expense. I'll admit that Toledo is technically numbered among the aggressors.

What demands have we made that would wreck anyone? As you point out, Denmark is gaining two provinces; I'm taking the Emperor of Romaion title which has zero land attached, and which Fasquardon took for roleplaying purposes in the first place. You, on the other hand, are blithely handing over a quarter of Lotharingia and a fifth of Gothia! The latter going mainly to your vassal at that!
 
Hmm... it occurs to me that what peanuts desire above all things is drama. So, let me give you some extracts of our current discussions.

And you give it to them with skill! I applaud especially your use of omitting parts of my arguments while printing yours in full, as well as deleting my smilies for added drama. Your reputation for mastery of propaganda is well earned :p


Here are Lotharingas demands.

14lothsproposal.jpg


Not even his co-belligerents appear to be supporting him taking all the German cultured provinces in Europe...
 
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Points to note: First, I'm not demanding anything I don't currently hold; thus your borders in southern Italy overstate the purple. Second, I am fairly confident that Lotharingia is not demanding any land to Toledo; that is a purely Alexandrian demand, not supported by any other power. Third, the original Lotharingian map leaves Bohemia German. Fourth, you have given land to France; while Lotharingia perhaps supports this, it does not form part of his actual demands. Fifth, the southern half of Sardinia was originally part of the Duchy of Jerusalem; I see you have no difficulty with vassal sniping when it benefits you. Finally, Croatia at this moment holds Split.
 
First, I'm not demanding anything I don't currently hold; thus your bor ders in southern Italy overstate the purple. etc, etc.

A province or two in Naples then.

The map is our proposed peace with Lotharingas changes added.

Second, I am fairly confident that Lotharingia is not demanding any land to Toledo; that is a purely Alexandrian demand, not supported by any other power.

As I have said several times, the Toledoan borders follow an diplomatic agreement between Me, Fasq and Toledo. Whereby Spain was to be given to Oddman, Oddman got tired with all the subs and impatiently went off and took the lands promised him. As such is is not a war demand, but a fulfillment of diplomatic treaty. War is simply the game mechanic used for the transfer. Just like Toledo has warred on several of my vassals in Spain.
Fifth, the southern half of Sardinia was originally part of the Duchy of Jerusalem; I see you have no difficulty with vassal sniping when it benefits you.

Taking a vassal here and there is acceptable and part of the game, had I taken the rest of Italy things would have been quite different. As you can see we have no problem with Denmark or Loire taking a few provs in war. Lotharinga however is demanding every last German cultured province, which is a massive overreach. Especially when he officially states they are his by the logic of might makes right.

Finally, Croatia at this moment holds Split.

I am to lazy to specifically check every last random province at the edges of the map. The Fiat concerns the stemming of the German losses and reducing Lotharingan war gains to reasonable levels.
 
Frosty said:
Especially when he officially states they are his by the logic of might makes right.
I have not stated that all the german provinces are mine. This is merely a swap of provinces to make the border prettier and cultures seperated by state. Lotharingia would be content with a return to pre-war borders as well but I don't think that any part of these discussions want the map to look the way it did before the outbreak of the war. It was, as stated, an eyesore.
 
I have not stated that all the german provinces are mine.

Well no, you are stating an amount equal to "gimme all the german provs" are yours. And we argue taking land by vassal sniping is no less an agression than war.


This is merely a swap of provinces to make the border prettier and cultures seperated by state. Lotharingia would be content with a return to pre-war borders as well but I don't think that any part of these discussions want the map to look the way it did before the outbreak of the war. It was, as stated, an eyesore.
Then why not go back to the pre vassal sniping borders? ;)
 
For the peanuts, here is Lotharingias offer for peace from Ederon:
* All of Rome’s german provinces, duke titles and the king of Bavaria go to Lotharingia.
* All of Lotharingias provinces and duketitles that are not of german culture go to Rome.
Maps for reference:
Pre-war borders: http://yfrog.com/5yprewarbordersp
Post-war borders: http://yfrog.com/9epeaceavp


This means in terms of numbers:
73 bt, 7 duke- and a king title to Lotharingia.
80 bt, 11 duke titles to Rome.
This peace would leave Rome with +7 bt, +4 dukes and -1 king title and would basically mean a status quo ante bellum but with smoother borders and Rome slightly stronger than before the outbreak of the war, effectively maintaining the pre-war balance of power in Europe.


FrozenWall said:
Then why not go back to the pre vassal sniping borders? ;)
Because that would reduce my realm by more than a fourth. I'm not really content with that.
 
effectively maintaining the pre-war balance of power in Europe.

Again the fallacy of separating the vassal sniping preceeding the war from the war itself. I consider them one and the same, just different game mechanics for taking somebody elses land. Your "peace" means a trippling of Lotharinga compared to the pre-agression borders, not some "maintaining of balance" but a consolidation of a massive landgrab over a few sessions. Most of which you get to keep under our plan, pride goes before fall sir.
 
It should be noted that the distance between Egypt and Lotharingia makes it impossible for the self-styled caliph to actually make good of his boasts unless he cries to mighty Russia for help.
 
It should be noted that the distance between Egypt and Lotharingia makes it impossible for the self-styled caliph to actually make good of his boasts unless he cries to mighty Russia for help.

Cry for help? This is not my idea, we are acting in concert and mutual understanding. This is not some invasion of Lotharinga, it is a correction of player overreach. The Calipha and Russia are not acting in their own self interests but for the greater good of balance, and the principle of massive gains against defenseless players not being an acceptable practice.

People are crying like we are enriching ourselves when we are set to gain not an inch. Or in my case give rich provinces away!
 
Cry for help? This is not my idea, we are acting in concert and mutual understanding. This is not some invasion of Lotharinga, it is a correction of player overreach. The Calipha and Russia are not acting in their own self interests but for the greater good of balance, and the principle of massive gains against defenseless players not being an acceptable practice.

And I'm the abominable snowman. Half of your possesions east of Sinai were stolen from me during realm duress. You have yet to come up with a logical explaination for why that was "fair acquisition" and this isn't. Until then, I'm going to write this off as the usual Egyptian arrogance.

People are crying like we are enriching ourselves when we are set to gain not an inch. Or in my case give rich provinces away!

I'm heartbroken. Really.
 
Until then, I'm going to write this off as the usual Egyptian arrogance.

I claimed the Fatimids as my starting position, you yoinked it from the Fatimids. The Fatimids yoinked it back. ;)
(I would also like to not a) I took it from an AI who took it from you a couple of sessions earlier b) you were way larger than me at the time)

But seriously here it is; this is a game of war and diplomacy. We are going to have different ideas of what 'belongs' to whom, and we are going to take land from each other in various ways. That is a large part of what the game is about. As such we both accept people holding land by right of conquest. Arguments like "You're to big" "You're to agressive" "The maps looks prettier this way" are all acceptable arguments. The question is really how much you take and from whom. Taking 10 provs from Russia is not going to agitate anybody (x'ept vR), taking 10 provs from Poland is.


What we don't accept is players getting gangbanged when in a civil war and subbed. Nobody cared much when Poland sniped half of Bohemia. We cared when everybody and their third cousin jumped a single defenseless subbed German player. Gangbangs set a bad precedent, but we do not intend to go so far as to completely condemn the agitators. Annexing the entirety of Germany/Austria/Switzerland from another player in quick succession is a bit much tho. Indeed should Europe simply temper and restrain itself for long enough for Germany to reconstitute itself it can resume its fighting when things have been allowed to settle.

When dueling it is not the practice of gentlemen to stab a man who has fallen, but to allow him to stand up and fight like a man.

I'm heartbroken. Really.

You may call me arrogant with power, but moving to secure a fair peace for a gangbanged player with no gains for myself are not not the actions of powerhungry landgrabbers.
 
taking 10 provs from russia is not going to agitate anybody (x'ept vr)
'

and finland!!!;)

We cared when everybody and their third cousin jumped a single defenseless subbed German player

To keep up the drama, objectivity and my bloody hurted pride, Who come egypt didn't care this during the session but left Germany bleed to zero all armies destroyed and most of vassals gone?
 
FrozenWall said:
I claimed the Fatimids as my starting position, you yoinked it from the Fatimids. The Fatimids yoinked it back.
(I would also like to not a) I took it from an AI who took it from you a couple of sessions earlier b) you were way larger than me at the time)

Following that argument I can safely say that I’ve had claims on the german provinces since long before Toulouse inherited it. Jerusalem was also independent before it pledged to me and Rome was way larger than me at the time.

FrozenWall said:
We are going to have different ideas of what 'belongs' to whom, and we are going to take land from each other in various ways

Our definition of ownership definitely seems to vary here and I would like to hear your definition of it. I certainly consider land that I’ve owned for more than 20 years without contest my own and it seems that, by your definition, Persia had lost its ownership of the land east of Sinai even though it had been independant for a shorter time than 20 years. And on that note I would like to know why you have chosen this time to complain about Lotharingia growing too fast and not mentioning it earlier if you really felt this strongly about it. Why wait until I want to reshuffle the borders and return some of the land?

FrozenWall said:
The question is really how much you take and from whom.

If it is only a question of how much and from whom and not why then I would like to note once again that Toledo’s gains are by far the largest in this conflict in your proposal, more than any of the other four beligerents combined. Sure, you claim that these has been promised to him, and for the record I don’t believe Fasq to break his promises, but it is still a promise that you are trying to force him to accept. If the power politics care not for anything other than how much and from whom then it doesn’t matter if it was promised or not. It still changes the balance of power.

FrozenWall said:
What we don't accept is players getting gangbanged when in a civil war and subbed.
The point you are making about Rome getting gangbanged in a civil war while subbed is also debatable. Rome has had its vassals constantly rebelling from it since about the time of its creation which is about 50 years ago. Surely you cannot claim that no one is allowed to declare war upon a major nation for that long a time? Also you claim that Jerusalem pledging to Lotharingia is the major part of this war and it’s an event that occurred while the perm was playing.
 
We are far more likely to see big wars fought when one participant is suffering from a civil war. I don't understand why you keep pointing this out as if it ought to be a deterrent or is in some way a negative factor.
 
You may call me arrogant with power, but moving to secure a fair peace for a gangbanged player with no gains for myself are not not the actions of powerhungry landgrabbers.

You know as well as I that there's more to power than mere land. I'm simply calling your white knight charade.
 
You know as well as I that there's more to power than mere land. I'm simply calling your white knight charade.

What then is my devious plan? What do I stand to gain from this appart from the common goals of balance?