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Thread: Children of the Fatherland: MP conversion game

  1. #2421
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gollevainen View Post
    As a country level behavior, loosing a war and continue it beyond one's own need simply to get attention and hope others invention by that is IMO akin to Kindegarden tantrum's. I do recall my own "kindegarden days" for playing not so far away from this very campaing itself

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    If one blobbes himself into monsterous porpotions, be prepared for monsterous porpotions in peace demands.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IFoelsgaard
    I seem to recall a war not long ago where someone demanded a lot more than a fourth of someone else.

    I don't believe in precedence though.
    Note the again in my post. ;D

    Naturally, once started there's no way back anymore. We drifted into massive demands long ago.

    Wheter you "believe" in them or not does not matter at all. It's a fact that when people lose a lot in one war, they'll demand a lot in another war. You can't expect them to wage 5 wars to regain what they lost in one. That said, it's unlikely that I'll retake the land I lose in this war any time soon - not in CK atleast. You're too well entrenched. That's why I'm reluctant to give up that much just yet.


    I'll try to post what I deem acceptable some time today.

  2. #2422
    Yours is no Disgrace Gollevainen's Avatar
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    You can't stop, can you? :P
    stop? I haven't even started properly
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  3. #2423
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calipah View Post
    This artistic piece Jakalo defies the Post-modern.
    I read ''defies'' as ''defines'' a couple of times =] Thanks, I guess.

    I started to give Blaynes desk stealing KoM a more noteworthy targets but it somehow got out of hand

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolibri View Post
    West Rome at the start of it´s civil war...
    ...and at the end.
    Strikes me as well over one third judging from the looks, although counting fractions wasn´t as popular back then.

    I also recall a peace deal where Poland lost 1/1th of it´s realm if I may be so bold as to force it in a fraction, which it really isn´t.

    This does not make our demands any better or any worse, it just defeats the argument that they are somehow setting a new precedent.
    A terrible terrible precedent, Holy Roman Empire losses in that war probably is worth a medium-sized kingdom nowadays. Which one can I take?

  4. #2424
    Rättshaverist FrozenWall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foels
    I seem to recall a war not long ago where someone demanded a lot more than a fourth of someone else.
    And I in turn seem to recall a war not long before that when something similar happened to a poor defenceless megalomanil tyrant in the same neighborhood... And before that there was Germany, Wales, etc, etc.

    The precedent is already set, our war claims are in reality limited mostly by the risk of intervention.

    Quote Originally Posted by KoM
    Frosty later claimed that his initial demands had been a bargaining position
    Well, it was what I would have taken if I could. Most of it was land I had lost to you in the previous war. As for the bloodcurling threats, yes, I play my Fatimids in the best tradition of Machiavellian Imperialism. If you want cuddly muslims go to Andalus.

    Quote Originally Posted by OY
    What can I say? He's an idiot
    A theory with many backers.

    I think the most interesting thing to know is the Fatimid and Croatian thoughts on all this.
    The Fatimids have signed pacts with the Greeks and Persians, and has had reasonably good relations with Russia so far, so I will probably not intervene in this conflict. On the peace I would hope for a reasonably lenient one.
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  5. #2425
    Yours is no Disgrace Gollevainen's Avatar
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    And what is the Wales example of precedent of ? Unless act of utter stubourness beyond one's nation own best intress?
    Always remmeber that Micheal didn't demand much from me, I started the last war and ended up annexed by AI becouse I refused to peace out when I had lost the war.
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  6. #2426
    Mushroom Korps Field Marshal OrangeYoshi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolibri View Post
    I also recall a peace deal where Poland lost 1/1th of it´s realm if I may be so bold as to force it in a fraction, which it really isn´t.

    This does not make our demands any better or any worse, it just defeats the argument that they are somehow setting a new precedent.
    I may point out that there was a single person that openly grieved the Polish Incident, and that was you. Even King of Men said it was a good thing that Eastern Europe consolidated. Also, annexing a power that has 20k manpower is different than annexing a power that has 300k manpower.

    I believe the precedent we're looking for here is backwards. All demands have started big, howerver, we've had the Fiat, the Crusaders, and the guarantors. The precedent is that someone will intervene in this conflict, it's simply figuring out who.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gollevainen View Post
    And what is the Wales example of precedent of ? I started the last war and ended up annexed by AI becouse I refused to peace out when I had lost the war.
    It is a precedent of attacking a power until it is annexed. Also it is a precedent of you being the only one here who whines and cries. Even Ike took his annexation just fine.
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  7. #2427
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    Yoshi, judging whether actions were good or bad or in between was hardly the point of my posting. It was just a response to our peace offer being under suspicion to set a "new precedent" for harsh peace offers, which it does not. Taking one third of Persia and one fourth of Byzantium was on the table. Taking over one third of West Rome as well as taking over one third of Poland were actually done. The only thing new about the precedence our peace offer sets is the name of the country on the receiving end.
    And that the "crippled" nation would still be the number two power in the game if it accepted.

  8. #2428
    Mushroom Korps Field Marshal OrangeYoshi's Avatar
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    Everything you just said was irrelevent.

    The precedent we're setting is that no one is yet intervening.
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  9. #2429
    Not a necromancer, no sir! Foelsgaard's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeYoshi View Post
    Everything you just said was irrelevent.

    The precedent we're setting is that no one is yet intervening.
    Everything said in this thread is irrelevant. The only things that really matter are said in PMs ^^
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  10. #2430
    Resident Opportunist King of Men's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeYoshi View Post
    The precedent we're setting is that no one is yet intervening.
    Yes, because nobody has any great sympathy for the biggest power being reduced to, oh the horror, the second-biggest power. That's Realpolitik for you!
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  11. #2431
    Rättshaverist FrozenWall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeYoshi View Post
    The precedent we're setting is that no one is yet intervening.
    Bavaria, Andalus and Croatia did.
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  12. #2432
    Quote Originally Posted by King of Men View Post
    Yes, because nobody has any great sympathy for the biggest power being reduced to, oh the horror, the second-biggest power. That's Realpolitik for you!
    Touche!


    Oh, that is so cliche.
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  13. #2433
    Mushroom Korps Field Marshal OrangeYoshi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by King of Men View Post
    Yes, because nobody has any great sympathy for the biggest power being reduced to, oh the horror, the second-biggest power. That's Realpolitik for you!
    That's actually not realpolitik. Realpolitik would be realizing that said second-biggest power will have absolutely no interest in helping the next sucker to get gangbanged. Who's going to step in with a fiat the next time Jakalo falls apart?

    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenWall View Post
    Bavaria, Andalus and Croatia did.
    Peaced out, lol, and tricked.
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  14. #2434
    Resident Opportunist King of Men's Avatar
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    I observe that Jakalo has exercised his own brand of skilled Realpolitik: In exchange for that intervention against Bavaria, he had me give up all my claims in Italy. So the next time the HRE falls apart, what am I going to do about it? In place of hoping for a fiat, he has removed the need for one. That's diplomacy, that is.

    As for tricking you: You offered me a WP quite of your own free will. So I may have 'tricked' you out of Karvuna (which wasn't my intention; I thought you were aware I had taken it), but I didn't trick you out of intervening in favour of Russia. You made your own decision on that point, and reached the conclusion that you couldn't be bothered to fight for vR. Try not to let your revisionist propaganda cloud your own mind, at least.
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  15. #2435
    Mushroom Korps Field Marshal OrangeYoshi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by King of Men View Post
    I observe that Jakalo has exercised his own brand of skilled Realpolitik: In exchange for that intervention against Bavaria, he had me give up all my claims in Italy. So the next time the HRE falls apart, what am I going to do about it? In place of hoping for a fiat, he has removed the need for one. That's diplomacy, that is.
    Hardly. Most peaces now are done through FoCoG: no claims needed. You only need the initial claim to start the war. Even then, all parties who would attack him have thousands, and sometimes tens of thousands, of prestige points which can be used to easily retake any claims which may have recently been given up. Claims are a dime-a-dozen, and just because you have none right now doesn't mean you can't spend a bit of prestige to get them all back once a good opportunity has arisen.

    Preventing war by taking away claims is just as bullocks as preventing war by having a huge army. It doesn't work that way.

    As for tricking you: You offered me a WP quite of your own free will. So I may have 'tricked' you out of Karvuna (which wasn't my intention; I thought you were aware I had taken it), but I didn't trick you out of intervening in favour of Russia. You made your own decision on that point, and reached the conclusion that you couldn't be bothered to fight for vR. Try not to let your revisionist propaganda cloud your own mind, at least.
    I offered you a WP. What you had me agree to was not a WP. You had me agree to something I had no knowledge of. If I had known you had taken Karvuna, I never would've thought about peacing you out. We can decide whether I was trying to help Russia at a later time, but peacing out had nothing to do with Russia. It had everything to do with keeping our pre-war border, and that is what failed to happen.
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  16. #2436
    Not a necromancer, no sir! Foelsgaard's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeYoshi View Post
    Hardly. Most peaces now are done through FoCoG: no claims needed. You only need the initial claim to start the war. Even then, all parties who would attack him have thousands, and sometimes tens of thousands, of prestige points which can be used to easily retake any claims which may have recently been given up. Claims are a dime-a-dozen, and just because you have none right now doesn't mean you can't spend a bit of prestige to get them all back once a good opportunity has arisen.

    Preventing war by taking away claims is just as bullocks as preventing war by having a huge army. It doesn't work that way.
    I'm sorry but you are just plain wrong. I'd list the reasons, but I'd rather not give potential enemies valuable knowledge.
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  17. #2437
    Resident Opportunist King of Men's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeYoshi View Post
    Hardly. Most peaces now are done through FoCoG: no claims needed. You only need the initial claim to start the war. Even then, all parties who would attack him have thousands, and sometimes tens of thousands, of prestige points which can be used to easily retake any claims which may have recently been given up. Claims are a dime-a-dozen, and just because you have none right now doesn't mean you can't spend a bit of prestige to get them all back once a good opportunity has arisen.
    As Foels said, you are just plain mistaken on this.

    I offered you a WP. What you had me agree to was not a WP. You had me agree to something I had no knowledge of. If I had known you had taken Karvuna, I never would've thought about peacing you out. We can decide whether I was trying to help Russia at a later time, but peacing out had nothing to do with Russia. It had everything to do with keeping our pre-war border, and that is what failed to happen.
    So you attacked me to keep our prewar border, while I was at war with Russia? Yeah, right. You attacked me to help Russia. Then I started beating you, and you decided help for Russia wasn't worth any actual, you know, risk. Which is my point: Nobody cares about Russia. It's like the old joke where the Yngling decides to kill ten thousand strils and two clowns. "Why the clowns?" "See, nobody cares about the strils!"
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  18. #2438
    Mushroom Korps Field Marshal OrangeYoshi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by King of Men View Post
    As Foels said, you are just plain mistaken on this.
    Prove it.
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  19. #2439
    Not a necromancer, no sir! Foelsgaard's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeYoshi View Post
    Prove it.
    no
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  20. #2440
    Resident Opportunist King of Men's Avatar
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    Have you never heard of opportunity costs? Suppose I had 20k prestige to spend on Italian claims, and no badboy worries. If I still had the claims I gave up, I could instead spend that prestige on claims in Russia or Croatia; indeed, to the extent I think Russia and Croatia are bigger threats or easier targets, I will prioritise such claims over renewing my claims to heavily-defended and not-too-unfriendly provinces in Italy.

    Whether I could still win a war with Jakalo if X, Y or Z happened, or if I did A, B and C, is not relevant. The point is that I've lost a strategic asset, and therefore, all else equal, I am less likely to win, and consequently less likely to attack, than I was previously. This is a net gain for Jakalo however you slice it. That the asset can in principle be replaced is not relevant; replacing it has costs, not least costs of giving fair warning, and imposing a cost is a deterrent.
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