Children of the Fatherland: MP conversion game

[Shadowdale]

Might does not make right, but it lets you get away with it while your counterpart gnashes teeth. Remember however, we have longer memories than our ingame counterparts...

Not today, but 1000 years ago, might did make you right. There is a reason why we have a saying that goes "History is written by the victors".

[FrozenWall]

Not today, but 1000 years ago, might did make you right. There is a reason why we have a saying that goes "History is written by the victors".

You are confusing kings getting away with stuff de facto with de jure. The people who got their asses whuped by the mongols certainly did not recognize any "right" of the barbarian heathens to burn their city, nor did their neighbors, regardless of the awesome might of the Khan of Khans. What they did was accept the fact that they could not resist the mongol atrocities, not the right of the mongols to commit them.

[Irsh Faq]

Well, multilateral, but so have a bunch of our NAP's been. At any rate the union treaties clearly have clauses forbiding wars, etc, between the signatories, yet are not alliances.

Well, if you consider UN to be an NAP, then it's another example of one that's been broken

[FrozenWall]

Well, if you consider UN to be an NAP, then it's another example of one that's been broken

The fact that people break the law all the time does not mean that breaking the law is acceptable.

-You stole my car!
-Chill dude, everybody's doing it...

[OrangeYoshi]

And the UN sucks anyway. Down with the UN! Down with the EU!

[FrozenWall]

Down with the EU!

First we burn down the ECJ for their interpretation of European Community first pillar law supremacy! Burn them I say!

[Irsh Faq]

Two months later
A remote hilltop castle, somewhere in the mountains of Azerbaijan

It was evening - not quite dark and not yet stormy, though there was that heavy feeling to the air that suggested it soon would be - as the man already beginning to be known in the Persian court as the Mad Arab stood by the gates and watched a line of several carts laboriously progressing up the steep and narrow roads towards him.

A small postern in the massive wooden gates creaked torturously as another man let himself out, and moved with a pronounced limp to stand by al-Baradei's side.

"The bookth and toolth you thent for from Baghdad, mathter."

"Very good." the alchemist nodded. "The Shah has been generous. Though no doubt he will require return for his generosity. I will make the preparations here - for you, I have another task."

He looked out at the thundercloud slowly rolling in over the mountain valley in front of them.

"I need bodies. Fresh bodies."

"...Mathter?" Whether it was surprise or something else in his assistant's voice was hard to tell.

"Bodies... My friend, you must understand. To unlock the secrets of life, I must first have recourse to death... and examine the process in the closest detail."

"...it vill take thome dayth, mathter."

"Do not worry. I have enough to occupy me here."

His assistant merely looked at him, and al-Baradei must have felt some further desire to explain.

"Ritual. The powers of death prefer that life is reserved for the living, my friend. To pour a little light into eyes that are shut forever, as the ancients said, I must propitiate them, as the Isiac priests used to do in the old days."

al-Baradei paused, and a strange little smile played on his face.

"Or... reduce them to obedience."

He turned to look at the castle tower behind him, jutting up against the darkening sky.

"The Roman and the Fatimid could not see the power in my work... so shortsighted. Demons and jinni and "forbidden" books, those were the limits of their vision. But I'll show them. I'll show them all."

His grin widened.

"It will be glorious."

[King of Men]

Also, haven't people been excommed already for breaking treaties in this game? I thought I remembered reading of such, though since there was not such a big thing made of it as this time, I don't remember the details.

There has been only one breach-of-treaty excomm, namely of Carillon for assassinating a Komnenos. But he wasn't at war and seems to have weathered the effects reasonably well. Before that, Frosty also killed a Komnenos heir while we had a NAP, but that was settled by compensation, with no excomming. (In hindsight I should have gone for the excomm and DOW, and taken back the Levant; c'est la vie.) That said, nobody is arguing that Jakalo shouldn't have been excommed, had he declared war on Frosty; that was always perfectly clear. The question is whether he would have, or should have, acquired a lot of human badboy for breaking a promise.

[carillon]

The fact that people break the law all the time does not mean that breaking the law is acceptable.

-You stole my car!
-Chill dude, everybody's doing it...

But the law doesn't apply! That's my point. International treaties or what not are so very different than a citizen breaking the law.

Plus you can't talk about morality in erms of relations between nations!

[carillon]

There has been only one breach-of-treaty excomm, namely of Carillon for assassinating a Komnenos. But he wasn't at war and seems to have weathered the effects reasonably well. Before that, Frosty also killed a Komnenos heir while we had a NAP, but that was settled by compensation, with no excomming. (In hindsight I should have gone for the excomm and DOW, and taken back the Levant; c'est la vie.) That said, nobody is arguing that Jakalo shouldn't have been excommed, had he declared war on Frosty; that was always perfectly clear. The question is whether he would have, or should have, acquired a lot of human badboy for breaking a promise.

Hey that Komnenoi was a jerk, they deserved it. That excom was actually not bad, the second one I got was more troubling. Thank god that king died soon after.

[OrangeYoshi]

But the law doesn't apply! That's my point. International treaties or what not are so very different than a citizen breaking the law.

They aren't different when they are enforced by punishment from a higher authority. Take away the mandatory excomm for breaking any treaty and then you have a point.

[FrozenWall]

But the law doesn't apply!

Blasphemer! Are you not bound by your word before Almighty God? Has he not set forth the Law for every man to follow through his prophets?

Plus you can't talk about morality in erms of relations between nations!

Nations? What are these "nations"? I am talking about the sworn word of a Sovreign Ruler to another.

[carillon]

They aren't different when they are enforced by punishment from a higher authority. Take away the mandatory excomm for breaking any treaty and then you have a point.

They still are though, mainly because of the voluntary aspect of the treaties that you are entering into. Its almost, if not entirely impossible to find a spot not governed by a societys laws. You can't really avoid the higher authority in that case.

For the NAP's and other things that we agreeing to, it is entirely voluntary. Not only do you not have to enter into agreements, you also don't have to make them official. You could definitely agree to a NAP or alliance and not have it written up. The whole enterprise is quite different than the law for these very reasons.

[OrangeYoshi]

They still are though, mainly because of the voluntary aspect of the treaties that you are entering into. Its almost, if not entirely impossible to find a spot not governed by a societys laws. You can't really avoid the higher authority in that case.

For the NAP's and other things that we agreeing to, it is entirely voluntary. Not only do you not have to enter into agreements, you also don't have to make them official. You could definitely agree to a NAP or alliance and not have it written up. The whole enterprise is quite different than the law for these very reasons.

I forget. What is it we're debating?

[carillon]

I forget. What is it we're debating?

No doubt something of great import

[von_Rundstedt]

I'm not sure what Carillon is arguing against. I think we all agree that breaking a NAP is breaking a promise not to attack each other, and therefore the one doing it (or stating he'll do it) will lose some of the trust of the other players. Right?

Wheter it's a formal NAP or a secret agreement between two players simply determines who is affected, not the fact that you'll still lose the trust of the one you "lied" (read: broke your word) to. With a broken secret agreement you lose the trust of the other "signatory". With a broken NAP you'll lose the trust of the other signatory and everyone else who can be arsed to care.

[carillon]

I'm not sure what Carillon is arguing against. I think we all agree that breaking a NAP is breaking a promise not to attack each other, and therefore the one doing it (or stating he'll do it) will lose some of the trust of the other players. Right?

Wheter it's a formal NAP or a secret agreement between two players simply determines who is affected, not the fact that you'll still lose the trust of the one you "lied" (read: broke your word) to. With a broken secret agreement you lose the trust of the other "signatory". With a broken NAP you'll lose the trust of the other signatory and everyone else who can be arsed to care.

Hah, I'm just saying there's no moral imperative not to, and that we shouldn't be shocked when someone breaks a NAP. Sure they lose trust, but its not like its earth shattering.

[von_Rundstedt]

Hah, I'm just saying there's no moral imperative not to, and that we shouldn't be shocked when someone breaks a NAP. Sure they lose trust, but its not like its earth shattering.

I think that was the only point. Losing trust. Do it more often and you'll have a hard time getting any agreements with other players.

[OrangeYoshi]

Hah, I'm just saying there's no moral imperative not to, and that we shouldn't be shocked when someone breaks a NAP. Sure they lose trust, but its not like its earth shattering.

Well duh.

*whistles*

[FrozenWall]

we shouldn't be shocked when someone breaks a NAP. Sure they lose trust, but its not like its earth shattering.

Thing is there needs to be some expectation a ruler will keep to his word, or diplomacy becomes pointless.