+ Reply to Thread
Page 96 of 176 FirstFirst ... 21 46 71 86 94 95 96 97 98 106 121 146 171 ... LastLast
Results 1,901 to 1,920 of 3515

Thread: Children of the Fatherland: MP conversion game

  1. #1901
    Resident Opportunist King of Men's Avatar
    Arsenal of DemocracyHearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonCrusader Kings IIDeus VultEuropa Universalis 3
    Divine WindHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourHeir to the ThroneEuropa Universalis III: In Nomine
    EU3 Napoleon's AmbitionVictoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of DarknessCK2: Holy Knight
    500k club

    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    I was banned from religion threads before it was cool. And after it was cool.
    Posts
    7,105
    Well see, this is what I was saying about contract law earlier. The point is that the contract does not specify what each party is promising to do. It can be read as "If I do X, you get Y", with no actual prohibition on X. Or it can be read as "I promise not to do X, and if I do, you get Y". Frosty wants to read it in the second sense, and fair's fair, he's got a lot of precedent and common sense on his side. But it is not completely illegitimate to read it in the first sense.
    MP Megacampaigns :
    The Great Game: CK, EU2, EU2 stats, Vicky, Doomsday.
    There Will Be War: CK, EU3, Vicky, Arma.
    Children of the Fatherland: Crusader Kings. Divine Wind I II Victoria 2
    Final update 22-January-2013: Final Overview
    God Will Know His Own: CK2 EU3

  2. #1902
    Rättshaverist FrozenWall's Avatar
    HoI AnthologyCrusader Kings IIDeus VultDivine WindHearts of Iron III
    Heir to the ThroneEuropa Universalis III: In NomineEU3 Napoleon's AmbitionVictoria: RevolutionsEuropa Universalis: Rome
    Semper FiVictoria 2Rome: Vae Victis

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Juridicum
    Posts
    1,232
    Maybe on this ground, (clausula rebus sic stantibus)
    No, "Unilateral denunciation of a treaty based on this clause is prohibited"

    Quote Originally Posted by carillon View Post
    Woah, woah.
    But it is not completely illegitimate to read it in the first sense.
    The ide that since there is punishment attached you can break it whenever you wish is absurd, especially since 1: that punishment is not meted out by me but by the GM 2: I cannot attach a real penalty myself since he could just ignore that clause to! Since I cannot stipulate penalty you cannot reasonably use that as an excuse.

    Presume I enter into alliance with you, and promise to come to your defence. Then when you get attacked I realize it would actually be to my benefit that you lose, would you then accept my ignoring you call to arms arguing that "Hey, ignoring a call to arms incures -20 prestige from gamemechanics, I paid my dues!". Or would you contend that that is not an acceptable excuse for breaking my word?
    GM and Last of the Carolingians in:
    Sunday night MP Megacampaign: God Will Know His Own
    The Great Game III MP Mega-Campaign: Children of the Fatherland , Day of Glory (finished)
    Proprietor of one Lord Strange Cookie. , WritAAR of the Week: Feb. 6, 2011

  3. #1903
    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenWall View Post
    No, "Unilateral denunciation of a treaty based on this clause is prohibited"



    The ide that since there is punishment attached you can break it whenever you wish is absurd, especially since 1: that punishment is not meted out by me but by the GM 2: I cannot attach a real penalty myself since he could just ignore that clause to!

    Presume I enter into alliance with you, and promise to come to your defence. Then when you get attacked I realize it would actually be to my benefit that you lose, would you then accept my ignoring you call to arms arguing that "Hey, ignoring a call to arms incures -20 prestige from gamemechanics, I paid my dues!". Or would you contend that that is not an acceptable excuse for breaking my word?
    Yeah, that's pretty much exactly an acceptable excuse. I mean you'd also have to consider the human badboy that'd you'd incur. I personally would feel that it wouldn't be worth it, but hey, if you do, go for it.

    Plus I'm not sure why its absurd to say that. There is a built in escape mechanism in every contract we make in the game.

  4. #1904
    Resident Opportunist King of Men's Avatar
    Arsenal of DemocracyHearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonCrusader Kings IIDeus VultEuropa Universalis 3
    Divine WindHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourHeir to the ThroneEuropa Universalis III: In Nomine
    EU3 Napoleon's AmbitionVictoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of DarknessCK2: Holy Knight
    500k club

    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    I was banned from religion threads before it was cool. And after it was cool.
    Posts
    7,105
    I note that, in some sense, Frosty's interpretation is self-enforcing. If he says publicly that he holds an interpretation of "A treaty is a promise to do X, not a promise of compensation for not-X", then everyone knows that breaking a treaty with him is that much human badboy, from Frosty and from whoever agrees with Frosty's interpretation. And he can, of course, refuse to sign treaties with anyone who does not hold such an interpretation. (If it turns out that he needs such a treaty... well, that's life in international law! It's no joke living in an anarchic world without a sovereign.) And the other thing is, I don't think anyone holds a pure compensation view of NAPs; it seems to me that everyone views them at least partly as promises not to attack. And, as pointed out, if your word is not your bond, it will be that much harder to get the next treaty. Which is true even if you publicly proclaim a compensation view; a contract with someone who views the NAP as a promise is more valuable than a treaty with someone who sees the excomm as the only penalty, and consequently more sought after.

    So, y'know, judge your treaties carefully and your breaches of them even more carefully. Jakalo has presumably sacrificed some credibility here; on the other hand he has gained a Middle East situation that suits him better. Whether that was a wise exchange is for him to judge, and he'll likely want to wait until at least the end of CK to do so, too.
    MP Megacampaigns :
    The Great Game: CK, EU2, EU2 stats, Vicky, Doomsday.
    There Will Be War: CK, EU3, Vicky, Arma.
    Children of the Fatherland: Crusader Kings. Divine Wind I II Victoria 2
    Final update 22-January-2013: Final Overview
    God Will Know His Own: CK2 EU3

  5. #1905
    Mushroom Korps Field Marshal OrangeYoshi's Avatar
    200k clubHearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonCrusader Kings IIDeus VultEU3 Complete
    Divine WindHearts of Iron IIIHeir to the ThroneIron CrossLegio
    Victoria: RevolutionsRome GoldSemper FiVictoria 2500k club
    Europa Universalis IV

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    In your computer screen
    Posts
    9,720
    Blog Entries
    21
    Quote Originally Posted by carillon View Post
    Hmm? The two parties would be the perpetrator and the state, the victim doesn't enter into it.
    Perhaps in modern law, but in older, more proper law, the perp is sentenced to pay recompense to the victim (or his family), not any governing body. The state is merely there to sentence - they don't enter into it as a party of negotiation at all.
    On Ubik: "HE GETS TO BE SMUG AFTER CARVING THE FACE OF PERFECTION USING THE SPOON OF INSPIRATION UPON THE BUTTOCKS OF AN ANGEL"

    ────── OrangeYoshi's Newbie Sig Information Center: Help is just a click away...™ ──────
    EU3 Wiki lll Paradox Acronyms lll FAQ Forum lll General FAQ lll Siege FAQ lll Patrolling Guidelines
    No Time Limit Mod lll Quick Questions Quick Answers

  6. #1906
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeYoshi View Post
    Perhaps in modern law, but in older, more proper law, the perp is sentenced to pay recompense to the victim (or his family), not any governing body. The state is merely there to sentence - they don't enter into it as a party of negotiation at all.
    Well that's it exactly then, the perp is sentenced to pay. The state sentences, and ensures the perpetrator fulfills the terms through its monopoly of force.

    And the state is the other party in the contract. They broke a compact that they have with the state, that then then have to pay to the victim. Just because the victim recieves money doesn't mean they had a contract with the perpetrator.

  7. #1907
    Someone could probably write a paper on international politics using these games as an experiment.
    He who wishes to fight must first count the cost. When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be dampened. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength. Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain. Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor dampened, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue... In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns.
    -Sun Tzu, the Art of War

  8. #1908
    Rättshaverist FrozenWall's Avatar
    HoI AnthologyCrusader Kings IIDeus VultDivine WindHearts of Iron III
    Heir to the ThroneEuropa Universalis III: In NomineEU3 Napoleon's AmbitionVictoria: RevolutionsEuropa Universalis: Rome
    Semper FiVictoria 2Rome: Vae Victis

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Juridicum
    Posts
    1,232
    Quote Originally Posted by carillon View Post
    doesn't mean they had a contract with the perpetrator.
    But they do. A divine/social contract inherent to their humanity, the law is simply a recognition of this.
    GM and Last of the Carolingians in:
    Sunday night MP Megacampaign: God Will Know His Own
    The Great Game III MP Mega-Campaign: Children of the Fatherland , Day of Glory (finished)
    Proprietor of one Lord Strange Cookie. , WritAAR of the Week: Feb. 6, 2011

  9. #1909
    Mushroom Korps Field Marshal OrangeYoshi's Avatar
    200k clubHearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonCrusader Kings IIDeus VultEU3 Complete
    Divine WindHearts of Iron IIIHeir to the ThroneIron CrossLegio
    Victoria: RevolutionsRome GoldSemper FiVictoria 2500k club
    Europa Universalis IV

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    In your computer screen
    Posts
    9,720
    Blog Entries
    21
    Quote Originally Posted by carillon View Post
    Well that's it exactly then, the perp is sentenced to pay. The state sentences, and ensures the perpetrator fulfills the terms through its monopoly of force.

    And the state is the other party in the contract. They broke a compact that they have with the state, that then then have to pay to the victim. Just because the victim recieves money doesn't mean they had a contract with the perpetrator.
    In this example, the GM is the State which is exacting the punishment for breaking the law. As you see, each part has it's counter-part in real law. Jakalo is the perp, Frosty the victim, KoM the State.

    And yes, all people have a contractual and inalienable duty to their fellow humans to not break contracts or inhibit their rights. Not murdering people is an example of that duty, as is not going against a NAP.
    On Ubik: "HE GETS TO BE SMUG AFTER CARVING THE FACE OF PERFECTION USING THE SPOON OF INSPIRATION UPON THE BUTTOCKS OF AN ANGEL"

    ────── OrangeYoshi's Newbie Sig Information Center: Help is just a click away...™ ──────
    EU3 Wiki lll Paradox Acronyms lll FAQ Forum lll General FAQ lll Siege FAQ lll Patrolling Guidelines
    No Time Limit Mod lll Quick Questions Quick Answers

  10. #1910
    Rättshaverist FrozenWall's Avatar
    HoI AnthologyCrusader Kings IIDeus VultDivine WindHearts of Iron III
    Heir to the ThroneEuropa Universalis III: In NomineEU3 Napoleon's AmbitionVictoria: RevolutionsEuropa Universalis: Rome
    Semper FiVictoria 2Rome: Vae Victis

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Juridicum
    Posts
    1,232
    As an aside, I have found the discussion of enforcability of my NAP with West Rome back in page 69...

    Quote Originally Posted by KoM
    tricky, that. I don't know that I care to enforce it by edits.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty
    We shall simply have to trust in the honour of our counterparts. Something we feel quite safe in doing, its not like they're Greeks or anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carillon
    Talk about a potential recipie for disaster. Trusting one another? Bah
    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty
    When has trusting Jakalo ever backfired for me?




    GM and Last of the Carolingians in:
    Sunday night MP Megacampaign: God Will Know His Own
    The Great Game III MP Mega-Campaign: Children of the Fatherland , Day of Glory (finished)
    Proprietor of one Lord Strange Cookie. , WritAAR of the Week: Feb. 6, 2011

  11. #1911
    As a minor point of interest, of the twelve specific treaties linked under Wiki's article on 'non-aggression pact' two are not really NAPs (the Peace of Callias was a peace treaty and the Franco-Soviet treaty was not really anything at all, but certainly not NAP) and it would appear that 100% (ten of ten) of the remaining live-linked ones were broken by one side or the other. As such applying real-world principles of international law in order to argue that NAPs are inviolable seems to fly in the face of their apparently not being considered inviolable at all IRL.
    Last edited by Irsh Faq; 20-01-2011 at 11:41.
    Emperor of Ethiopia, High King of Ceylon, Sultan of Arabia, Prince of Antioch and Damascus, Lord Protector of the Tamil Coast, Maharaja of Gujarat, Lord Protector of Java and Sumatra, Archduke of Australia, Autocrat from Carthage to the Cape, Sea Lord of the East Pacific, Caliph of Baghdad, and Defender of the Ark of the Covenant in Tyranny's Bloody Banner.

  12. #1912
    Captain Jakalo's Avatar
    Arsenal of Democracy

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Ogre, Latvia
    Posts
    375
    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenWall View Post
    As an aside, I have found the discussion of enforcability of my NAP with West Rome back in page 69...

    You are trying soo hard to discredit me with you clever law student logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenWall View Post
    So allow me to break it down then

    1) You sign a treaty promising there will be no war between us.
    This is a promise.

    2) You then say you will ignore the treaty if a war I'm in isn't going like you want it to.
    You are saying you will arbitrarily break your promise whenever it suits you.

    Conclusion: Your promise carries no weight when it actually matters.


    I am a lawstudent. Pacta sunt servanda is a quite deeply ingrained principle to me.
    Too bad its faulty. No pact was broken. At best you can accuse us at bluffing our intervention to save two nations from obnoxiously harsh peace offer, something you have done yourself (OA against Russia).

    And, mind you, for the good of yourself as you admitted it.

    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenWall View Post
    Our alliance would have won, but it would have taken for ever, and the distribution of spoils would not have been as slanted in my favour. Perhaps had you held out unforeseen events/european intervention would have turned it.

    However on a local level the outcome was probably for the best, any real amount of provs back or forth in the M.E. and I think we would have had another war in the not to distant future. Now we have compromise giving a chance at lasting stability and security, something that will be worth more longterm than a few provs back or forth.
    And you claim I am trying to destabilize our relations whilst taking all this effort to prove how I am the bad guy while all we did was for the good of the middle east.

    I am no law student, but doesnt that sound a little hypocritical?

  13. #1913
    Rättshaverist FrozenWall's Avatar
    HoI AnthologyCrusader Kings IIDeus VultDivine WindHearts of Iron III
    Heir to the ThroneEuropa Universalis III: In NomineEU3 Napoleon's AmbitionVictoria: RevolutionsEuropa Universalis: Rome
    Semper FiVictoria 2Rome: Vae Victis

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Juridicum
    Posts
    1,232
    No pact was broken.
    The crime was not commited, but there was intent. According to yourself at least.

    something you have done yourself
    Indeed, but I had not prommised not ot attack the people I was threatening to attack.

    And, mind you, for the good of yourself as you admitted it.
    If you can't beat them, join them.

    And you claim I am trying to destabilize our relations whilst taking all this effort to prove how I am the bad guy while all we did was for the good of the middle east. I am no law student, but doesnt that sound a little hypocritical?
    I am not decrying your intentions, but your means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Irsh Faq View Post
    that 100% (ten of ten) of the remaining live-linked ones were broken by one side or the other
    One might also note almost all those pacts were with Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union during the years 1926-1941, so, yea....

    Of the ones remaining Callias was more of a peace than a NAP, and Paris was the Papacy saying christians can't attack eachother and the latins pretending like the church was in charge untill the priest left the room.

    None of which is realy applicable to our situation and age. Although NAP's really is a thing from the more civilized Industrial age, as are our potentially continent-covering systems of alliances.
    Last edited by FrozenWall; 20-01-2011 at 12:10.
    GM and Last of the Carolingians in:
    Sunday night MP Megacampaign: God Will Know His Own
    The Great Game III MP Mega-Campaign: Children of the Fatherland , Day of Glory (finished)
    Proprietor of one Lord Strange Cookie. , WritAAR of the Week: Feb. 6, 2011

  14. #1914
    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenWall View Post
    One might also note all those pacts were with Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union during the years 1926-1941, so, yea....

    None of which is realy applicable to our situation and age. Although NAP's really is a thing from the more civilized Industrial age, as are our potentially continent-covering systems of alliances.
    Not all, Treaty of London at least was an example closer to your era. And was broken by not one but several of the major participants as soon as it became convenient.

    But yeah, perhaps the unreliability is why NAPs aren't so common any more.
    Emperor of Ethiopia, High King of Ceylon, Sultan of Arabia, Prince of Antioch and Damascus, Lord Protector of the Tamil Coast, Maharaja of Gujarat, Lord Protector of Java and Sumatra, Archduke of Australia, Autocrat from Carthage to the Cape, Sea Lord of the East Pacific, Caliph of Baghdad, and Defender of the Ark of the Covenant in Tyranny's Bloody Banner.

  15. #1915
    Rättshaverist FrozenWall's Avatar
    HoI AnthologyCrusader Kings IIDeus VultDivine WindHearts of Iron III
    Heir to the ThroneEuropa Universalis III: In NomineEU3 Napoleon's AmbitionVictoria: RevolutionsEuropa Universalis: Rome
    Semper FiVictoria 2Rome: Vae Victis

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Juridicum
    Posts
    1,232
    Quote Originally Posted by Irsh Faq View Post
    And was broken by not one but several of the major participants as soon as it became convenient.
    I note that one of the main signatories was King Henry VIII, not a man known for his ability to keep oaths made before clergymen.

    But yeah, perhaps the unreliability is why NAPs aren't so common any more.
    NAPs existed, but more in the form of friendships and marriages than actual paper treaties.
    GM and Last of the Carolingians in:
    Sunday night MP Megacampaign: God Will Know His Own
    The Great Game III MP Mega-Campaign: Children of the Fatherland , Day of Glory (finished)
    Proprietor of one Lord Strange Cookie. , WritAAR of the Week: Feb. 6, 2011

  16. #1916
    Go back to the Napoleon era and you will have plenty of examples where nation states broke their alliances and attacked their former ally, simply because of a change in the global situation. In international politics, law does not make right, the power to enforce your will makes right and has done so for more than 2000 years. Only in more recent times has that begun to change.

  17. #1917
    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenWall View Post
    NAPs existed, but more in the form of friendships and marriages than actual paper treaties.
    I mean today, you won't see bilateral NAPs much.
    Emperor of Ethiopia, High King of Ceylon, Sultan of Arabia, Prince of Antioch and Damascus, Lord Protector of the Tamil Coast, Maharaja of Gujarat, Lord Protector of Java and Sumatra, Archduke of Australia, Autocrat from Carthage to the Cape, Sea Lord of the East Pacific, Caliph of Baghdad, and Defender of the Ark of the Covenant in Tyranny's Bloody Banner.

  18. #1918
    Rättshaverist FrozenWall's Avatar
    HoI AnthologyCrusader Kings IIDeus VultDivine WindHearts of Iron III
    Heir to the ThroneEuropa Universalis III: In NomineEU3 Napoleon's AmbitionVictoria: RevolutionsEuropa Universalis: Rome
    Semper FiVictoria 2Rome: Vae Victis

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Juridicum
    Posts
    1,232
    I mean today, you won't see bilateral NAPs much.
    What? The UN is one giant super-NAP! As is the EU!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowdale View Post
    law does not make right, the power to enforce your will makes right and has done so for more than 2000 years. Only in more recent times has that begun to change.
    Might does not make right, but it lets you get away with it while your counterpart gnashes teeth. Remember however, we have longer memories than our ingame counterparts...
    GM and Last of the Carolingians in:
    Sunday night MP Megacampaign: God Will Know His Own
    The Great Game III MP Mega-Campaign: Children of the Fatherland , Day of Glory (finished)
    Proprietor of one Lord Strange Cookie. , WritAAR of the Week: Feb. 6, 2011

  19. #1919
    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenWall View Post
    What? The UN is one giant super-NAP! As is the EU!
    I don't think either is comparable to NAPs after the 19th-early 20th century model. Also, not bilateral.

    Also, haven't people been excommed already for breaking treaties in this game? I thought I remembered reading of such, though since there was not such a big thing made of it as this time, I don't remember the details.
    Emperor of Ethiopia, High King of Ceylon, Sultan of Arabia, Prince of Antioch and Damascus, Lord Protector of the Tamil Coast, Maharaja of Gujarat, Lord Protector of Java and Sumatra, Archduke of Australia, Autocrat from Carthage to the Cape, Sea Lord of the East Pacific, Caliph of Baghdad, and Defender of the Ark of the Covenant in Tyranny's Bloody Banner.

  20. #1920
    Rättshaverist FrozenWall's Avatar
    HoI AnthologyCrusader Kings IIDeus VultDivine WindHearts of Iron III
    Heir to the ThroneEuropa Universalis III: In NomineEU3 Napoleon's AmbitionVictoria: RevolutionsEuropa Universalis: Rome
    Semper FiVictoria 2Rome: Vae Victis

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Juridicum
    Posts
    1,232
    I don't think either is comparable to NAPs after the 19th-early 20th century model. Also, not bilateral.
    Well, multilateral, but so have a bunch of our NAP's been. At any rate the union treaties clearly have clauses forbiding wars, etc, between the signatories, yet are not alliances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Irsh Faq View Post
    Also, haven't people been excommed already for breaking treaties in this game? I thought I remembered reading of such, though since there was not such a big thing made of it as this time, I don't remember the details.
    Some assassinations within eachothers realms, but nothing to great came of it. Denmark excommed Croatia and Bavaria by ingame means for partitioning Poland.
    GM and Last of the Carolingians in:
    Sunday night MP Megacampaign: God Will Know His Own
    The Great Game III MP Mega-Campaign: Children of the Fatherland , Day of Glory (finished)
    Proprietor of one Lord Strange Cookie. , WritAAR of the Week: Feb. 6, 2011

+ Reply to Thread
Page 96 of 176 FirstFirst ... 21 46 71 86 94 95 96 97 98 106 121 146 171 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts