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Thread: Children of the Fatherland: MP conversion game

  1. #1581
    Not a necromancer, no sir! Foelsgaard's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenWall View Post
    I can live with the morale bug. What really ruins it is my armies disappearing right before my very eyes for no apparent reason. Especially since it seems they reappear at zero strength in their home prov. :[
    Yes, that bug is, frankly, gamebreaking. I really hope we can find the source and maybe edit a couple of the home provinces to have more strength.
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  2. #1582
    Quote Originally Posted by various Calipho-Russo-Croat posts
    our peace terms are lenient
    I did some painstaking correlating of the base-tax map in Varyar's signature with the demands map you posted, and it looks like the Russian-Caliphate-Persian alliance is demanding a similar proportion of East Roman base tax (over a third of the total bt) to go directly to their own realms, as the Caliph was screaming about being far too harsh a peace deal to be given to an harmless AI realm when it was Cossacks under discussion (and which proposal was duly greatly reduced by the attackers). I am not sure of the exact numbers because I don't know if the tiny Greek islands are all their own provinces or are grouped together in some manner.

    I will look at the Persian proposed BT-losses later but I suspect the proportion is similar. Chaldaea and the Transoxiana are very rich according to varyar's base tax map, it looks like the demands encompass all but one or two of the high base tax provinces in Persia.

    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenWall View Post
    The fact is that me and vR really are not interested in being allied with eachother, or getting dragged into eachothers bussiness.
    Weren't Caliphate and Russia cooperating long before the Persian-Byzantine alliance even existed? I remember great to-do much earlier in the game about Russia and the Caliphate threatening to conquer the whole map together if theyir demands about a certain peace were not met

    Also, isn't it bit silly to demand additional lands from East Rome and Persia in compensation for lands taken by West Rome and Bavaria?
    Last edited by Irsh Faq; 09-01-2011 at 20:25.
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  3. #1583
    Mushroom Korps Field Marshal OrangeYoshi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irsh Faq View Post
    I did some painstaking correlating of the base-tax map in Varyar's signature with the demands map you posted, and it looks like the Russian-Caliphate-Persian alliance is demanding a similar proportion of East Roman base tax (over a third of the total bt) to go directly to their own realms, as the Caliph was screaming about being far too harsh a peace deal to be given to an harmless AI realm when it was Cossacks under discussion (and which proposal was duly greatly reduced by the attackers). I am not sure of the exact numbers because I don't know if the tiny Greek islands are all their own provinces or are grouped together in some manner.

    I will look at the Persian proposed BT-losses later but I suspect the proportion is similar. Chaldaea and the Transoxiana are very rich according to varyar's base tax map.
    I think Ulmont's basetax map is different than what we are counting as base tax. IIRC, we are counting the base income level as basetax, at least that's what I used before to determine how "rich" Croatia was. And anyway, the break-down was already done:

    In addition the Caliphate in compensation for the loss of the Western Isles, worth 34 basetax, and the piracy out of Crete and Malta that cost much coin and ship, demands the remainders of Chaldea and related titles outlined in Yellow, worth 32 basetax.

    The Tsar, for the loss of Finland and Prussia, worth 34 and 16 basetax respectively, demands the remainder of Transoxiana outlined in Orange, worth 23 basetax.
    The reason compensation is being asked from only two members of the previous four-member alliance is that the two western members have already returned to friendly relations, whereas the two eastern powers assaulted our defensive alliance yet again.
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  4. #1584
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeYoshi View Post
    I think Ulmont's basetax map is different than what we are counting as base tax. IIRC, we are counting the base income level as basetax, at least that's what I used before to determine how "rich" Croatia was. And anyway, the break-down was already done

    Only for a small part of the demands were basetax totals given, so I wanted to do the rest. If there are two different meanings of base tax, then I continue to be glad I do not play this strange and arcane game.

    So what proportions of the Persian and Byzantine prewar base tax do the total demands represent, then, in this other measurement?
    Last edited by Irsh Faq; 09-01-2011 at 20:40.
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  5. #1585
    Field Marshal von_Rundstedt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irsh Faq View Post
    Only for a small part of the demands were basetax totals given, so I wanted to do the rest. If there are two different meanings of base tax, then I continue to be glad I do not play this strange and arcane game.

    So what proportions of the Persian and Byzantine prewar base tax do the total demands represent, then, in this other measurement?
    Only for the compensation the basetax is mentioned, as the rest is simply returning land they've taken in their previous attacks. Why should the basetax of the returned land matter?

    And the peaceterms are indeed lenient. Imagine we would ask our land back, and then make on top of that such heavy demands as they asked off us. Don't try to disguise the agressors as the victims now. :P
    Last edited by von_Rundstedt; 09-01-2011 at 21:12.

  6. #1586
    Rättshaverist FrozenWall's Avatar
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    basetaxes and byzantophile whining
    Due to the wild fluktuations in actual tax income we use the base unmodified tax (base tax) in the savefile, as can be seen here: Map

    As for the prospective Byzantine losses, I note we are only taking back lands exactly equal in wealth to what he took from us just last war! Thus we are bringing Byzantion back to the situation just after they lost Italy to the other Romans, but before they orcestrated the gangbangs on me and vR. As such we are merely returning lands lost. In addition me and vR intend to take 5 provs each of Persia and I the Agean iseletts of KoM.

    In the great gangbang of a crusade where 5 of the world dowed me and took 45 provinces of me. 45! Two thirds of my demesne! I now return, and demand 37 provinces back, in a war where they yet again attacked me, and I'm the evil one?

    Nay, when has the Caliphate ever declared war uppon a player and taken his lands? Never! Ours have ever been the way of diplomacy and negotiation! Ours have ever been the calls for peace and compromise! Always have we been assaulted and besieged, always hounded by vile lies and propaganda! But never have we started a war against a player!

    cooperation with Russia
    Cooperation in single instances is not alliance. When our interests align so do our actions. These however are not more lasting than the events that breed them, and soon our ways part. The defensive alliance against the Orientals was born out of their orcestration of a gangbang first on me, then vR. We soon realized they intended to attack one of us again, or perhaps OY. And so we decided that if such an attack were to take place, something we very much expected, we would stand together against their agression and retake the lands they so recently took from us.
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  7. #1587
    [Due to strange communications lags in PM between me and KOM while asking if there was still room for Immortals AARs, posting this has been much delayed. Being written around the time of the Persian mad science experiements, it is set then]

    An estate outside Alexandria

    The old oak doors finally gave way under the concerted assault of a ram, and two dozen of the Caliph's men poured into the breach. A few armed servants tried to bar the entry, and were summarily overrun; these were the picked troops of Alexandria, not about to be delayed by household men with hand-axes and kitchen knives.

    They spread out quickly through the house. One held a terrified servant girl at sword-point, and extracted from her that 'he' had fled to the basement; men rushed for the stairs.

    Down the stairs, lit by guttering torches, the rush slowed; the lead men advanced quietly, swords out. One man wrinkled his nose; a heavy, metallic smell was wafting up from below. The source became clear as they burst through a final door at the bottom of the stairs. But the smell was nothing compared to the strange and bizarre sight that greeted them.

    A half dozen beakers, some nearly empty, some full, fizzed and smoked on a table in the center of the room, letting out strange vapors; to one side a long array of copper tubes suspended in foul-smelling liquid shared shelf space with stacked ingots of half a dozen metals, from lead to gold and several less well-known alloys in between. Across the room strange fleshy objects floating in jars of brine stood next to disorderly rows of bones, some looking disturbingly human. Against the back wall, stacked haphazardly on shelves were all sorts of books and papers, from Italian works of alchemy and astrology, to vellum texts of classical medicine, to cultic papyrus sheets of ancient Egyptian necromancy.

    The only thing missing was the owner. After a moment's recovery from surprise the leader barked out orders. Some went back upstairs to search the rest of the house and grounds, others were to scour the room and find where he had gone.

    But it was only after a half-hour's delay - and the spectacle of one man screaming horribly as the contents of a bulbous glass vial that he'd knocked over ate away at his arm - that someone discovered the hidden trapdoor in the floor of a corner cabinet containing several sets of heavy protective leather clothing. Another few minutes of crawling through a dark, muddy tunnel and they emerged near a ramshackle - and empty - river dock.

    Two miles distant, as each stroke of the oars carried him closer to the ship waiting for him in the Nile mouths, Saad al-Baradei smiled to himself as shouts of anger carried over the water.

    He had outlived his welcome in Egypt, yes, and when the Fatimids discovered the truth of his experiments, they no doubt would hunt all the harder for him. There would be no returning to his old home here, and even the twisting waterways and endless marshes of the Nile mouth were being tamed, no longer the safe haven for the outlawed that they once had been. Once again, time to move on. But to where?

    The Romans to the north would be no friendlier than the Caliph; it was not like the old days. Constantinople preserved much ancient knowledge, but Christ had poisoned them against true science just as Muhammed had the Egyptians. Nor were the lands west and north any better; any who were not zealots were barbarians, who had likely never heard of the high sciences, much less possessed the books and knowledge he would need to start again.

    But while the West and North had fallen into ignorance and barbarism, the limitless East called out. Baghdad held famous ancient libraries, and the Persian rulers, it was said, had more respect for men of science. And perhaps, a use for them as well.

    [If you are indeed going to resurrect my immortal, Saad al-Baradei, then, move him from Egypt to Persia.]
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  8. #1588
    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenWall View Post
    As for the prospective Byzantine losses, I note we are only taking back lands, etc, etc
    Wasn't it a series a number of wars over many years? Also, no need to justify yourself just yet. I note you evaded answering what proportion of Persia + Byz current Base Tax the demands represent, which was my main question. If it turns out to be much less of a proportion than the demands you insisted were so outlandish in previous wars, I will subside

    Thanks for the better BT map, which I will use for future calculations.

    Anyway, you use this argument every time when you protest someone else's large territory gains but defend your own; yours don't count as large, because the territory in question ought to be rightfully yours anyway. I don't see how it's applicable here. Your main demand is Antioch, which was KOM's starting duchy. Every province you wanted from Byz started the game as a Byz province IIRC. After all, if you're taking it back from KOM makes it right, his taking it back from you made it right.

    Cooperation in single instances is not alliance.
    I didn't say anything abouts alliance, only that you said you had no interest in working together except for Persian-Greek alliance and I'm not sure the facts bear that out. I am happy to accept that a literal defensive alliance only existed in response to the other one.

    Also, for purposes of full disclosure, yes, I am an unrepentant byzophile. I hold a classics degree, and having an irrational love for the Roman Empire was one of the major departmental requirements.
    Last edited by Irsh Faq; 09-01-2011 at 22:18.
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  9. #1589
    Resident Opportunist King of Men's Avatar
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    Look you: Persia plus Byz has about 400k manpower. The Caliphate has 400k alone; Russia has 500k. When we attacked Russia in the midst of a death spiral, the morale bug prevented us from advancing as far as the Crimea. Do you think us mad, then, that we would attack you from sheer aggression? Accuse us of aggressive belligerence if you must, but give us some credit for brains! We knew you would try to cripple us; we attacked from sheer desperation, when it was clear that no diplomatic solution was being offered.

    As for your peace demands, I have two things to say. The first is that you do not have the strength to impose this peace, as has been made clear by the past three years of war. It is you, not we, who have been driven back and forced to defend the core of your Levantine empire; I remind you that in the initial year of the war, Constantinople itself was under siege, while now I maneuver on the Croatian border. It is true that we have been helped by the bugs, but the facts on the ground remain: You have not destroyed our armies, and while our armies can take the field, you cannot force any such peace.

    The second is this: I am prepared to discuss the fate of the Black Sea coastline, of the Med islands, and of Roman Syria. These are imperial possessions, border marches, strategic buffers, to be coldly traded for peace if a war goes sufficiently badly. But I will not give up Constantinople by negotiation. You can take Constantinople by fully occupying my demesne and force-peacing me; not otherwise. The City of Men's Desire is not a bargaining chip; it is the core and heart of the Empire.
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  10. #1590
    Not a necromancer, no sir! Foelsgaard's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irsh Faq View Post
    [If you are indeed going to resurrect my immortal, Saad al-Baradei, then, move him from Egypt to Persia.]
    I would be more than happy to welcome Saad al-Baradei, the Mad Arab, to my court.
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  11. #1591
    Mushroom Korps Field Marshal OrangeYoshi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irsh Faq View Post
    Wasn't it a series a number of wars over many years?
    Two wars over over about 20 years. The wars took so long due to the moral bug.

    I note you evaded answering what proportion of Persia + Byz current Base Tax the demands represent, which was my main question.
    It's the same as what the ARA took from Russia, and what the Crusaders took from Egypt.

    If it turns out to be much less of a proportion than the demands you insisted were so outlandish in previous wars, I will subside
    Which war(s)? The Fiat gangbang?
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  12. #1592
    Rättshaverist FrozenWall's Avatar
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    Inspired, of course, by Svips most excellent Flagland AAR

    Wasn't it a series a number of wars over many years?
    Nope, 1 war against me. The "Emperors Crusade" Gangbang. And 1 war against realm duressed Russia. I remember only the last war against anybody, going further back is pointless.

    I note you evaded answering what proportion of Persia + Byz current Base Tax the demands represent, which was my main question.
    I don't know. I want the land they took last war back, plus 5 provs from Persia. If you take my wallet, and I then demand it back I am demanding the same wallet ain't I? A robber can't argue that taking back his loot is somehow worse tha the looting itself based on % of his earning versus that of his victims.

    Your main demand is Antioch, which was KOM's starting duchy.
    A long time ago, yes. But as I said I remember only one war back against any person. Also those lands were not taken from him, they pledged to me after having suffered much abuse from byzantion. In fact I have never attacked anybody (xcept AI), my gains have been thanks to men flocking to the Caliphas good and rightful rule.

    Lastly, I note that no peanut cried much when I was smushed into the ground and had 45 provs, including my capital Alexandria and holy Jerusalem, taken from me. Where were your concerns then Peanuts?

    Also, for purposes of full disclosure, yes, I am an unrepentant byzophile.
    There you go

    Also, don't confuse my moral arguments with my practical arguments. The % of a nations lands lost is of less interest that the facts of every individual case. Morally I am opposed to attacking players with no chance in the world to defend themselves, or utterly ruining their realm. Yet in the case of Poland neither I nor anybody else lifted a finger, due to the specific circumstances of that war. Practically I am opposed to the two players who just orchestrated a gangbang against me growing and getting a secure flank. Had it been Denmark demanding a quarter of Russia I wouldn't have been to terribly concerned. KoM and Foels however have sworn themselves my enemies, clearly I could not allow them to whack the only player who could balance them!

    Look you: Persia plus Byz has about 400k manpower. The Caliphate has 400k alone;
    At session start Persia had 320k and you 210k, this does not ad up to my equal, especially looking at my ability to actually bring those numbers to bear. I have never attacked you two. vR has never attacked you two. Were we getting ready for a war? Yes. Because diplomatic warnings had reached our ears you intended to attack us again. It is amazing how your blind mobs will believe your accusations of us being aggressor when we have never attacked you, yet you have attacked us multiple times!

    negotiations
    If you have an actual proposal then lets hear it. Let us hear what reparations you offer, and what guarantees you will not attack me again, as usual, lest we grind you to dust. For that is what will happen, bugs or no bugs you cannot sustain your rate of attrition, while we can. Do not confuse maps with the cold hard facts of numbers. We are however not impossible, we will accept a reasonable peace.
    Last edited by FrozenWall; 10-01-2011 at 00:37.
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  13. #1593
    Rättshaverist FrozenWall's Avatar
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    when it was clear that no diplomatic solution was being offered.
    What? I have offered plenty of diplomatic solutions for longstanding peace and cooperation to both you and Persia, then you gangbanged me and took 45 provs, and now you are "desperate" because I want them back?
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  14. #1594
    Not a necromancer, no sir! Foelsgaard's Avatar

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    Your constant propaganda is grating and tiresome Frosty.
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  15. #1595
    Mushroom Korps Field Marshal OrangeYoshi's Avatar
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    Absolutely love the comic.

    Not to mention the mupdate pics show exactly that the current peace demands from you two are simply the lands you used to own before you were both gangbanged.
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  16. #1596
    Not a necromancer, no sir! Foelsgaard's Avatar

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    Jerusalem is where it all started.
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  17. #1597
    Rättshaverist FrozenWall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foelsgaard View Post
    Your constant propaganda is grating and tiresome Frosty.
    My propaganda is in character, reality may or may not be entirely aligned with my posturing. All of our claims of anything on this map other than our starting duchy "belonging" to us are fabricated with prestige anyway, no?

    Jerusalem is where it all started.
    Is this when you annexed my ally the emirate of Jerusalem? I thought it started a session later when you and KoM attacked me and took Damascus and Baalbek from me?
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  18. #1598
    Not a necromancer, no sir! Foelsgaard's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenWall View Post
    My propaganda is in character, reality may or may not be entirely aligned with my claims.
    Doesn't make it any less tiresome. Maybe your offers of "alliance" would have seemed more sincere had they not been dropped in a sea of bile.
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  19. #1599
    Quote Originally Posted by Foelsgaard View Post
    I would be more than happy to welcome Saad al-Baradei, the Mad Arab, to my court.
    We may have our faults, but at least we are men of science!
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  20. #1600
    Rättshaverist FrozenWall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foelsgaard View Post
    Doesn't make it any less tiresome. Maybe your offers of "alliance" would have seemed more sincere had they not been dropped in a sea of bile.
    While the Caliphate may indeed spew bile upon its enemies I have not directed any attacks against your IRL person. I apologize if you have taken offense or the irony of any of my comments has been lost to the internets, I hold you and KoM to be good and reliable players as well as good sports. Should there be any change in our relationship there will of course be a corresponding one in the silliness that is our aar thread.

    Mad Arab
    Can an Immortal be extradited between players?
    GM and Last of the Carolingians in:
    Sunday night MP Megacampaign: God Will Know His Own
    The Great Game III MP Mega-Campaign: Children of the Fatherland , Day of Glory (finished)
    Proprietor of one Lord Strange Cookie. , WritAAR of the Week: Feb. 6, 2011

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