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Thread: Children of the Fatherland: MP conversion game

  1. #1481
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    Quote Originally Posted by King of Men View Post
    But on the record, Croatia can beat Rome one on one if, and only if, the AI controls Rome.
    What would you define as the primary reason for Croatias defeats? On paper you should have been rough equals in both reconquests...
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  2. #1482
    Resident Opportunist King of Men's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenWall View Post
    What would you define as the primary reason for Croatias defeats? On paper you should have been rough equals in both reconquests...
    That doesn't seem right to me. I had a big advantage in manpower, both times. Which, of course, is only natural given the superior Roman ability to organise and mobilise.
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  3. #1483
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    Strange, at least last time I had you pegged at about equal when I bowed out of the war...
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  4. #1484
    Resident Opportunist King of Men's Avatar
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    The CK estimate of manpower doesn't take into account that a Roman soldier is worth three barbarian warriors.

    But seriously, I think Croatia's peacetime manpower before absorbing Poland was around 90k, and Rome before taking the Black Sea and Syrian coasts was around 200k. Of course you might have seen a different estimate due to regiments mobilised or attrited, but I don't think the numbers can have been that close to equal.
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  5. #1485
    Rättshaverist FrozenWall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoM
    The CK estimate of manpower doesn't take into account that a Roman soldier is worth three barbarian warriors.
    Well the reason I left OY in the 1v1 war with you when I peaced with the coalition was that I read you strength as 120.000 and OY's at 110.000 (my numbers have so far seemed to include mobilized troops, since I've never seen any change when players mobilize) , and judged he had an even chance at wining with your troops spread out and him holding the City. Or at least getting a white peace/getting the big boys to save him. But yes, apparently I forgot to account for the martial ineptness of tribal warriors, next time he takes Constantinople I'm bloody garrisoning it myself!



    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    The Fatimid Caliphate:
    In the shadows of those who came before them.






    The decades after Calipha Afzal ordered the execution of his heir apparent Emir Sayyid from the other side of the grave had been marked by strife and calamity amongst the factions of the Caliphate. In the Ummah there had been endless squabbling and politiking over who to elect as his replacement, all the Fatimid branches having equal claim to the pure bloodline of the Prophet. Commanders had drawn their banners to themselves, the great tradehouses had failed to coordinate and train their fleets, lacking oversight the Mullahs started issuing fatwas at their own whim, important posts became vanity titles bereft of responsibility, fortifications were neglected as their lords traveled to Alexandria to secure their interests. A long string of Caliphas had been elected, none able to unite the farflung interests of the Caliphate or maintain the authority of the Throne of Pharos.

    It was not strange then when the Emperors of East and West, Shas of Persia and the accursed Waldemarite barbarians descended upon the Caliphate they found not the massed spear of disciplined city levies, and sail of the combined grand battlefleets of yore to greet them. As had been the case with all previous failed Crusades. But disparate fiefdoms vying for power and feudal rights, unable to unite under central command.

    The massive blow to the Caliphates power that followed was a sobering loss to the entitled lords Fatimid. Many retreated into solitude and retrenchment, shocked by the defeat of their mighty realm, others brazenly campaigned for vengeance and war.
    Any other Empire would have collapsed under such a defeat, but the Caliphate was not such an Empire. Notably none of the events that transpired had effected the insidious powers residing in Beirut, and the Dane-King of Jerusalem and Egypt soon found that their power stretched no farther than their sword.

    In the meantime Ayesha, Lord Fatimid of Algiers, was elected Calipha by the remaining peers in Damascus. He is not much better remembered by the history books than the other 3 short lived Caliphas who ruled after Afzal, but it was he who managed to keep the Fatimids united. It was he who he held the realm from pointless infighting and blame games. But most importantly, it was he who through great expense maintained the well-trained and still unbroken Sayeedi Guard and funded the Engineers Guild's move to Beirut after their ouster from their spiritual home of Baalbek.

    It is however his successor, the Lord Fatimid of Arabia, Abdul-Gawfur, who is remembered. For he was a calculating man, a scholar. And unlike most the other Fatimids not given to rash and proud action. Where many others demanded a swift end to the crusader state in their midst he patiently waited for the Danes to sail home, and let the Hassassins nibble away at their patrols and poison their stores. A full decade was spent pushing them ever backwards, until all of Egypt and Jerusalem was in effect held by the Caliphate. Time also spent allowing resentment, revanch- and revivalism grow. After all the banners had still been largely intact and in the field at the time of the Caliphates surrender to the Dane-king, and the Calipha was not slow in pointing out targets for the populist anger and zeal that swept the realm. Pointedly any man of stature or position (especially meddlesome non-arab 'nobles' such as the Ayyubs) who had voiced objection of the Fatimid lines propensity for unilaterally revoking land titles or commands and in their stead appointing men of their own bloodline (in the name of Allah and his Prophet of course) soon found their heads on the traditional spiking grounds outside one of the Caliphas palaces.

    It was then that in the dawning of the year 626 after the Prophet entered Medina (or 1229 since the birth of the Prophet Isa) that Calipha Abdul had gathered the realm behind him, massed the Guard in Cairo and Damascus and marched on the Crusader Kingdom.


    A later fanciful depiction of the Crusaders surrender, in reality no pardon was given to any European found in the two cities...



    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





    The mighty halls of the Fortified Lighthouse-Palace of Pharos. Rugged men bearing the mighty hammer and cog of the Engineers Guild chisel away at the foundations of new pillars to support the ancient Tower. Light shines in where the massive siege machines smashed through the defenses, here and there are stains of blood and battle damage yet to be cleaned up. Radhi, Lord Fatimid of Diametta and first amongst equals, casts a glance at the basketlike elevating-construct the cogs had machinated before opting for the more reassuring stairs.

    It was a long climb to the 25th floor, more akin to reaching the top of a mountain than something man-made, winding through adorned halls and past the bureaucracy and court necessary for empire. There was need for catching his breath after reaching the outer hall of the Throne room. The veterans standing guard hardly seemed to notice him, but he could feel the eyes of the massive statues of Calipha Ala'i and Afzal upon him. As if he was not a worthy descendant, that a true Fatimid would not be seen panting like a fat merchant, that a true Fatimid would wear the golden armour of the Guard and not fine embroidered silk. They would not have let their realm grow complacent or have the court intrigue run rife. He waved the thoughts away and straightened himself, now was not the time for lamentations. The Master of Ceremony slammed his staff in the ground twice as he entered, he looked over at the Banner Guards along the wall as his many titles were read aloud. At intervals lay banners on the ground, their lands lost and their remaining number absorbed amongst the ranks of others.

    It stung in Radhi's heart, Mosul, Antioch, Tigris and Euphrates, Tripoli, Baalbek, yes. But the deepest cut were all the banners of Sicily. The Jewel of the Sea. A full section along the wall was simply gone, including the second Academy of War instituted by Afzal himself, the western seat of the Engineers Guild likewise, and all the ports and ships amongst them. Under the old Caliphas it's Trade Guilds had been so powerful they could unilaterally seize the island of Sardinia without repercussion. At their center laid the Banner of Palermo, adorned with a crown of some long-gone vanquished Croat king and the personal heraldry of the al-Akbarzibs*, an old noble family who had once ruled Sevilla. It was abu Bakr, last of that line, who when all sense of order in the Caliphate ranks was faltering had marshalled the last of the fleet and smashed his way through the Imperial blockade and landed in Linguria. It was at least heartening that he had not had to suffer the surrender of his beloved island, or the treaty of naval cooperatin struck with the Empire, having fallen in heroic battle in the failed attempt to storm the Imperial capital of Milan.

    The sound of iron meeting stone once more brought him back to the present. The council assembled before him looked up in anticipation.
    Last edited by FrozenWall; 25-12-2010 at 23:39.
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  6. #1486
    Mushroom Korps Field Marshal OrangeYoshi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenWall View Post
    Well the reason I left OY in the 1v1 war with you when I peaced with the coalition was that I read you strength as 120.000 and OY's at 110.000 (my numbers have so far seemed to include mobilized troops, since I've never seen any change when players mobilize) , and judged he had an even chance at wining with your troops spread out and him holding the City. Or at least getting a white peace/getting the big boys to save him. But yes, apparently I forgot to account for the martial ineptness of tribal warriors, next time he takes Constantinople I'm bloody garrisoning it myself!

    I guess the PM's to you saying "If you peace out, I'm SOL and will be dead within a year" didn't tell you anything?
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  7. #1487
    Rättshaverist FrozenWall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeYoshi View Post
    I guess the PM's to you saying "If you peace out, I'm SOL and will be dead within a year" didn't tell you anything?
    *checks ederon*

    So ingame? Never saw any. I was in all probability battling popups, maneuvering troops, negotiating surrender or bribing rebellious vassals at the time. You could have shouted in TS, I was quite busy having my demesne looted by the Danes you know
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  8. #1488
    Mushroom Korps Field Marshal OrangeYoshi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenWall View Post
    *checks ederon*

    So ingame? Never saw any. I was in all probability battling popups, maneuvering troops, negotiating surrender or bribing rebellious vassals at the time. You could have shouted in TS, I was quite busy having my demesne looted by the Danes you know
    Yes, ingame. And I didn't want to shout in TS as that wouldn't be very, you know, private.
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  9. #1489
    Rättshaverist FrozenWall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeYoshi View Post
    grumble,grumble
    If it makes you feel better I got it quite good myself that war. And as for privacy, you could have shouted "Read your damn PMs!"
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  10. #1490
    Mushroom Korps Field Marshal OrangeYoshi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenWall View Post
    If it makes you feel better I got it quite good myself that war.
    10 year loss of the KoJ and Alexandria vs. (so far) 50 year loss of Constantinople and 6 other provinces amounting to 50% of my income. Yes, you really got it good in that war...
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  11. #1491
    Rättshaverist FrozenWall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeYoshi View Post
    10 year loss of the KoJ and Alexandria vs. (so far) 50 year loss of Constantinople and 6 other provinces amounting to 50% of my income. Yes, you really got it good in that war...


    *errcough* + Loss of Iraq/Syrian Coast/Sicily/Crete/E. Arabia/75% of my demesne and other assorted lands and islands. You have only lost Byz for 30 years to far. (~1220-1250) and why would they have cared if I told em' to peace with you? I was at war with half the map, it's not like I was dictating terms here.
    Last edited by FrozenWall; 26-12-2010 at 01:32.
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  12. #1492
    Mushroom Korps Field Marshal OrangeYoshi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenWall View Post
    *errcough* + Loss of Iraq/Syrian Coast/Sicily/Crete/E. Arabia/75% of my demesne and other assorted lands and islands. You have only lost Byz for 30 years to far. (~1220-1250) and why would they have cared if I told em' to peace with you? I was at war with half the map, it's not like I was dictating terms here.
    Don't try to put facts in the middle of my whining!
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  13. #1493
    Rättshaverist FrozenWall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeYoshi View Post
    Don't try to put facts in the middle of my whining!


    *checks saves*

    You lost Constantinople somewhere between 1220 and 1224, it constituted 54g of your monthly 234g. Assuming you lost it first thing in 1220, our last save is oct 24 1251 and lets say Constantinople got you an even 60/month thats 60gx44months=2640g. Plus that 4prov duchy around Epirus, combined worth about half of Byz so +1320g=3960g. So a net loss so far of about 4000gold, liberally counted.

    The Caliphate can throw in some extra to soothe the pain and say an even 5000 in reparations?
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  14. #1494
    Mushroom Korps Field Marshal OrangeYoshi's Avatar
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    Sounds lovely.
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    Resident Opportunist King of Men's Avatar
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    Gold is nice, but surely the manpower losses are more painful? Gold can't always get you soldiers, but soldiers can get you gold. The militia of Byzantium alone amounts to twenty thousand men, a very substantial portion of the army of Rome and and even larger chunk of Croatia's manpower. (And they are disciplined soldiers at that, not tribal levies.) I would have thought that the loss of the soldiers that allow a power to throw its weight around in the councils of Europe weighed harder than mere money.
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  16. #1496
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    But I don't think Frozen CAN give away his soldiers? --or even better, yours, KoM?

  17. #1497
    Rättshaverist FrozenWall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzMartinDK View Post
    --or even better, yours, KoM?
    Well, to be fair KoM did deceitfully abandon Poland to be annexed by Croatia, expanding OY's holdings by a fair bit
    Last edited by FrozenWall; 26-12-2010 at 13:29.
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  18. #1498
    Not a necromancer, no sir! Foelsgaard's Avatar

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    Surely, there must by another source of manpower than mere land!
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  19. #1499
    Mushroom Korps Field Marshal OrangeYoshi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by King of Men View Post
    Gold is nice, but surely the manpower losses are more painful? Gold can't always get you soldiers, but soldiers can get you gold. The militia of Byzantium alone amounts to twenty thousand men, a very substantial portion of the army of Rome and and even larger chunk of Croatia's manpower. (And they are disciplined soldiers at that, not tribal levies.) I would have thought that the loss of the soldiers that allow a power to throw its weight around in the councils of Europe weighed harder than mere money.
    Croatia currently makes about 20-50 gold monthly. It varies from month to month, and it goes negative if I raise any regiments. So yeah, gold is pretty important. All the big guys get off by saying "Gold means absolutely nothing in CK and is a worthless commodity that is too abundant thus we need gold sinks like trade pirate events" but you don't think about the smaller nations when you do that. If I get a single trade pirate event, it takes several years to regain the money lost from that event. And at the rate I used to get those events, I was doomed to hang around 50 gold forever because whenever I got more, I got an event wiping out 5 years' worth of savings. It wasn't until I got some gifts from bigger friends that I was actually able to build buildings and earn a bit of money to be able to overcome those pirate events.

    Whenever I try to raise an army to quell a small rebellion, I lose about 80-130 gold monthly. When you start getting into debt, you start losing buildings, losing stability, and those mean your vassals become less loyal. Gold is -very- important to small nations like Croatia, because we can't build up stockpiles the size of Denmark's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Foelsgaard View Post
    Surely, there must by another source of manpower than mere land!
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  20. #1500
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeYoshi View Post
    It wasn't until I got some gifts from bigger friends
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