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Werewolf LXXXIV: Aces of the Pacific

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The Arch Mede said:
The Cylons deserved getting killed. They trust their cultist in a discussion of who gets sacrificed! And that cultist is AOK:rofl:

Autokilling the one wolf that played with real skill in the game is a pretty sad way to end it.
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There was no auto-kill. It was a leader lynch. I knew Yakman was the wolf. There was no point in delaying anything at that point. He would have lynched no matter what happened.

I did not "con" johho. He knew I knew Yakman was the wolf and did not want to waste 24 hours doing nothing but waiting for me to lynch Yakman. The game was over. I would not have changed the order no matter what. I knew all my guys were good. I knew sbr was a doctor. I knew OY could not be the wolf as he leader lynched Rac. Yak was the wolf. Lynch him, game over. I lynched him. Game over. Johho has been around more big games than any other player alive. The idea that anyone could "con" him as the GM is absurd in the worst way.

I also disagree with your assessment of the Cylons. We did just fine thank you. As for you thinking OY did the right thing in murdering Jonti, well, no comment. I will just take note that you have rather questionable werewolf judgment. ;)
 
The Arch Mede said:
You got yourself killed. You put OY under pressure and he cracked. He did exactly the right thing in that situation, which is to take out the person doing the pressuring. He may not be sure of the game situation, he is likely misreading it because of the pressure, but he accurately identified who was pressuring him and took him out. It is better not to crack under the pressure, but once you are cracking the best thing to do is to react against whoever is pressuring you.
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I didn't predict such epic idiocy. In 4 years (nearly) of werewolfing I have not seen the like. If he had been a baddie, he would deserve praise but not as a goodie.

The Arch Mede said:
OY is well known for cracking under pressure. You put him under pressure by sending him PMs and then ramped it up in the thread. It was extremely silly if you thought he was on the same side as you. It was doubly silly when you knew he could get you lynched whenever he wanted.
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Err, i didn;t know he was a leader?
I have utterly no idea where you got that impression :confused:
 
AOK. 11 said:
There was no auto-kill. It was a leader lynch. I knew Yakman was the wolf. There was no point in delaying anything at that point. He would have lynched no matter what happened.

I did not "con" johho. He knew I knew Yakman was the wolf and did not want to waste 24 hours doing nothing but waiting for me to lynch Yakman. The game was over. I would not have changed the order no matter what. I knew all my guys were good. I knew sbr was a doctor. I knew OY could not be the wolf as he leader lynched Rac. Yak was the wolf. Lynch him, game over. I lynched him. Game over. Johho has been around more big games than any other player alive. The idea that anyone could "con" him as the GM is absurd in the worst way.

I also disagree with your assessment of the Cylons. We did just fine thank you. As for you thinking OY did the right thing in murdering Jonti, well, no comment. I will just take note that you have rather questionable werewolf judgment. ;)
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Rubbish. You knew nothing until johho wrote the update. You had your judgement of what the situation was, and it could have been wrong.

You got it wrong previously. You had tornadoli lynched by the village in a situation where there were two more baddies than villagers. Clever Cylon judgement? I think not. Big Cylon screw up nearly letting the Cannibals win, is more like it.

You took so long to find Yakman that he took the Cylons down to one wolf and had a shot at taking out that last wolf.

Johho already assumed something that would happen which didn't in the game. You can't say he has perfect judgement, and in any case the GM has no business exercising that judgement even if he is right. He should have given Yakman a chance to get you to change your mind.

If you were sure it was Yakman that had to be killed, you had the votes to lynch him. You didn't need the leader role to do it. Your leader order was irrelevant, except that you used it to confirm your guess about who it was needed to be killed. You weren't sure. If johho had let the game go on, you would have switched it to kill sbr instead.
 
The Arch Mede said:
Rubbish. You knew nothing until johho wrote the update. You had your judgement of what the situation was, and it could have been wrong.
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Um, yes I did. I knew Yakman was the wolf. I was lynching him either way.
Regardless, if I had been wrong and Yakman had not been the wolf, then Johho would have updated as such. I was going to leader lynch Yakman no matter what happened. I was willing to risk making that decision. I told Johho to go ahead and I was not changing. He simply moved the deadline up. If I had been mistaken, then the game would have continued. Johho simply saved us 24 hours.

Please read the GM AAR before you make idiotic proclamations. sbr had been scanned by Calamity. I had slept with him on a Cannibal hunt night. He could not be the wolf, and could not be the cultist. Thus, I knew he was good, as I said earlier. You say I would have leader lynched him? Really? :rofl: You really are rather clueless and not in a somewhat charming, entertaining way like OY.
 
jonti-h said:
I didn't predict such epic idiocy. In 4 years (nearly) of werewolfing I have not seen the like. If he had been a baddie, he would deserve praise but not as a goodie.



Err, i didn;t know he was a leader?
I have utterly no idea where you got that impression :confused:
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From him having already leader lynched a baddie. ;) If you didn't even notice that happening its no wonder you got yourself killed.:p
 
The Arch Mede said:
From him having already leader lynched a baddie. ;) If you didn't even notice that happening its no wonder you got yourself killed.:p
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OK, I plead guilty to one charge of not paying attention. :eek:o However, I didn't get myself killed.
 
About the next game:
So I see we aggreed on skipping NH. That makes Slinky the next one, and I'm after him. Now Slinky offered to change places with me, because it fits us both better, so if there is no objection, I'll start the next game.
There are two downsides:
1. I was also thinking of a war themed game (WWI this time), which might be boring already.
2. I didn't expect to GM so soon, so, it will be a little slow to really take shape, but I could always just start the thread and fill in rules and such a little later, I already have a cheme of what roles I want, its just thte themeing that requires some thinking.

What do you say?
 
Kriszo said:
About the next game:
So I see we aggreed on skipping NH. That makes Slinky the next one, and I'm after him. Now Slinky offered to change places with me, because it fits us both better, so if there is no objection, I'll start the next game.
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Gopher it. :)

Kriszo said:
There are two downsides:
1. I was also thinking of a war themed game (WWI this time), which might be boring already.
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It ought to be OK - you could always base it on Blackadder Goes Forth :p

Kriszo said:
2. I didn't expect to GM so soon, so, it will be a little slow to really take shape, but I could always just start the thread and fill in rules and such a little later, I already have a cheme of what roles I want, its just thte themeing that requires some thinking.

What do you say?
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Gopher it.
 
AOK. 11 said:
Um, yes I did. I knew Yakman was the wolf. I was lynching him either way.
Regardless, if I had been wrong and Yakman had not been the wolf, then Johho would have updated as such. I was going to leader lynch Yakman no matter what happened. I was willing to risk making that decision. I told Johho to go ahead and I was not changing. He simply moved the deadline up. If I had been mistaken, then the game would have continued. Johho simply saved us 24 hours.

Please read the GM AAR before you make idiotic proclamations. sbr had been scanned by Calamity. I had slept with him on a Cannibal hunt night. He could not be the wolf, and could not be the cultist. Thus, I knew he was good, as I said earlier. You say I would have leader lynched him? Really? :rofl: You really are rather clueless and not in a somewhat charming, entertaining way like OY.
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Johho took 24 hours of play away from Yakman. This is what I find really sad about it. He saved you 24 hours of sweating. He gave you the victory on the cheap rather than giving Yakman a chance to make you sweat a bit more for it.

Yakman and I had a last day shoot out in a game a while ago. It was pretty obvious to everybody that I was going to be the one lynched from about 20 hours out. That didn't mean I couldn't make him sweat. That didn't mean that I couldn't make a lot of the people watching think that he had got it wrong. The player been taken down has got a right to the chance to go down fighting, and it should not be taken away by the GM.

And OY? And if Calamity had lied to you? All these are matters of judgement, not knowledge on your part.

How funny would that have been? You so sure you had read OY right and turning out to have read him wrong. It will happen (and has happened) occasionally. OY is a rather better player than most give him credit for.

Even if the player with the power has got it right, the GM has to give the other player a chance to con him.

You admit that it was done by negotiation with johho. That is entirely wrong. The GM should never be put in a position of having to confirm or deny a players judgement of the other players.
 
jonti-h said:
It ought to be OK - you could always base it on Blackadder Goes Forth :p
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Sorry, I'll stay with the WWI theme, but I hope people are not that bored by it. Nex time I'll think of something better :)

So thread coming up soon, but specifications will come later, its just that you can start signing up.
 
Kriszo said:
Sorry, I'll stay with the WWI theme, but I hope people are not that bored by it. Nex time I'll think of something better :)

So thread coming up soon, but specifications will come later, its just that you can start signing up.
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That is set in WW1 :p
Just before the Somme IIRC.
 
The Arch Mede said:
Johho took 24 hours of play away from Yakman. This is what I find really sad about it. He saved you 24 hours of sweating. He gave you the victory on the cheap rather than giving Yakman a chance to make you sweat a bit more for it.

Yakman and I had a last day shoot out in a game a while ago. It was pretty obvious to everybody that I was going to be the one lynched from about 20 hours out. That didn't mean I couldn't make him sweat. That didn't mean that I couldn't make a lot of the people watching think that he had got it wrong. The player been taken down has got a right to the chance to go down fighting, and it should not be taken away by the GM.

And OY? And if Calamity had lied to you? All these are matters of judgement, not knowledge on your part.

How funny would that have been? You so sure you had read OY right and turning out to have read him wrong. It will happen (and has happened) occasionally. OY is a rather better player than most give him credit for.

Even if the player with the power has got it right, the GM has to give the other player a chance to con him.

You admit that it was done by negotiation with johho. That is entirely wrong. The GM should never be put in a position of having to confirm or deny a players judgement of the other players.
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The GM asked if I was going to use my leader ability. I said yes, lynch Yakman. I said go ahead and do the update as I am not changing. There is nothing that could have happened, nothing that Yakman could have said to change things. There was nothing to sweat about. Every piece of information I had , and I mean every single piece, led to one conclusion. That is very rare. Yakman was the wolf, full stop.

The GM neither confirmed nor denied anything. There was no negotiation. He simply asked me if I was going to leader lynch someone. I said yes, I will lynch Yakman. If I had been wrong, the update would have reflected this and the game would have continued.

I understand where you are coming from, but in this case there was no harm in moving up the deadline as the day was decided either way. Yakman was going to lynch. Right or wrong on my part, that is how it was going to be. I usually hate when people surrender. This was not a surrender. It was a moved deadline. Nothing wrong went on here. There is a reason not even Yakman is complaining.
 
randakar said:
In hindsight I should have tried harder to be an obvious extra-important goodie in an attempt to get wolves to hunt me (thus causing a no-hunt or two).
I wanted to do that at some point but then EURO started with his "I'm the seer" lies ;-)

Also funny: I considered staying with Calamity at the start for a few nights as she was quiet and unlikely to get hunted. But then I thought she might be the seer (hence the quiet) and decided not to.

Tsk.
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I should have listened to my inner voice.

NO! not the one that says "KILL!", the other voice.

For some reason Walrus, jacob, AOK, and Calamity had their noses way, way, waaaaayyy too clean. I figured something was up. I had been disturbed by the lack of sorcerer/cultist hits. I just couldn't put all 4 of them together.

There was just not any evidence other than say, "hey, this person is too good."
 
AOK. 11 said:
The GM asked if I was going to use my leader ability. I said yes, lynch Yakman. I said go ahead and do the update as I am not changing.
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He has no business doing this. Of course you are not changing once he has confirmed your judgment by doing this.

AOK said:
There is a reason not even Yakman is complaining.
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He may well not feel it is worth it, but the objections I am making now are mild compared to what I would have done if a GM had prevented me going out in style by doing this.

Whatever passed between you and johho, and only he really knows whether he started it or you did, he should not have done it. That sort of communication between GM and player gives away information to the player. The GM may think that the result is decided anyway, but he shouldn't anticipate the players. Johho did that with THE_ZOMBIE, deciding that it wasn't worth getting a sub because THE_ZOMBIE would be dead as soon as he was subbed, and he misread the situation. The players did it differently and a sub might actually have managed to do quite a bit before getting killed. The GM should not ask the players what orders they are going to give. He should wait, and adjudicate on the results of the orders that are sent to him. He should not ask a player if they are going to change their mind or not. He should wait and see whether they do or not.

I don't think johho is a bad GM, far from it, but I do think this needs to be pointed out as something that should not be done.
 
New Big Game up!

[thread=469195]
Werewolf LXXXV: The War to End All Wars​
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[thread=469195]
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trespoe said:
I should have listened to my inner voice.

NO! not the one that says "KILL!", the other voice.

For some reason Walrus, jacob, AOK, and Calamity had their noses way, way, waaaaayyy too clean. I figured something was up. I had been disturbed by the lack of sorcerer/cultist hits. I just couldn't put all 4 of them together.

There was just not any evidence other than say, "hey, this person is too good."
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The conclusion was that they were in control, and something had to be done about it. I was a day too late coming to that conclusion and didn't really have a chance to do anything about it, even if I had come up with a better plan. I thought I had done enough to get someone other than me lynched, and that I would be an obvious enough hunt target that the GA (actually another doc, though I didn't know that) would protect me or one of the other possible hunts for the cylons, but the doc kept protecting people from the wrong pack. (Missing by two days is bad luck, missing by one day means the doc hasn't worked out which pack is after who.)

Having seen how it didn't work that time, I think I could have given AOK a much bigger fright had I played it differently, but with the baddies already outnumbering the village, rather than being level (I had the walrus turn as probably testing randakar's story and finding him not at home), I think AOK would have been able to see off any challange to him that day. AOK's nose was actually far cleaner than jacob's or calamity's at that point. It was so unbelievably shiny that he had to be the one that needed to be taken down.
 
The Arch Mede said:
He has no business doing this. Of course you are not changing once he has confirmed your judgment by doing this.
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He confirmed nothing. He told me that he had already received the Cannibal hunt order in case I was wrong and that the game would continue if that was the case. He thus pointed out that possibility in the event my leader order went bad. He did nothing wrong, and GMed a fine game. He moved up the deadline. A dozen GMs have done the same. End of story.
 
AOK. 11 said:
He confirmed nothing. He told me that he had already received the Cannibal hunt order in case I was wrong and that the game would continue if that was the case. He thus pointed out that possibility in the event my leader order went bad. He did nothing wrong, and GMed a fine game. He moved up the deadline. A dozen GMs have done the same. End of story.
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You still don't get it do you?

"He confirmed nothing". Immediately followed by "He told me that he had already received the Cannibal hunt order in case I was wrong"

The GM should not have done that negotiation.

You can PM Yakman, and say, "Yakman you are screwed because you are the wolf, I am the leader and I can kill whoever I want and its you, why dont we just put our orders in and tell the GM to finish the game now? If you agree just put your order in and tell the GM you agree to moving up the deadline."

You can then all put your orders in and johho can finish the game early and there is nothing wrong.

But Yakman might reply "You bastard, why are you giving the game to Walrus, I have played a far better game than him. You have got yourself into the position where you can choose which wolf wins with you, you have screwed over your pack once already, why don't you do the job properly and finish off Walrus?"

Now that might or might not happen, and you might or might not take account of anything that Yakman says, but johho cut all that possibility out of the game by getting involved in the negotiations and he should not have.

It is wrong for the GM to initiate or participate in any negotiations between players at any time in the game at all. He should not ever initiate or mediate any course of action by the players.
 
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