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Thread: List of Wishes for AoD

  1. #981
    Field Marshal Mr_B0narpte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pang Bingxun View Post
    Afaik there already is a fallback value. But it is very low and mainly depends on logistic techs. I suggest to use (current Infra+current max Infra)/2 in the formula in case of capital only. If a capital is bombed to stoneage a degradation of commandostructure must occur.
    Command structure is different to the supply structure.
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  2. #982
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pang Bingxun View Post
    Afaik there already is a fallback value. But it is very low and mainly depends on logistic techs. I suggest to use (current Infra+current max Infra)/2 in the formula in case of capital only. If a capital is bombed to stoneage a degradation of commandostructure must occur.
    If there is already such an algorithm then I´d rather prefer this solution. Your suggestion makes sure that capitals with less than 100% infra won´t get a boost in their ESE.

    Much more important seems to be the issue of strategic bombing that can reduce IC and infra levels to nothingness in less than two weeks.

  3. #983
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    Much more important seems to be the issue of strategic bombing that can reduce IC and infra levels to nothingness in less than two weeks.
    Yes, that is IMHO really important to - I suppose it would not be so hard for Gunman to change since it involves a simple formula.
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  4. #984
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blecky View Post
    If there is already such an algorithm then I´d rather prefer this solution. Your suggestion makes sure that capitals with less than 100% infra won´t get a boost in their ESE.

    Much more important seems to be the issue of strategic bombing that can reduce IC and infra levels to nothingness in less than two weeks.
    I don't want to debate which is more important, but the capital exploit can be quite crippling, especially on multi-player. Debating the impact of strategic bombing is opening a much bigger pandora's box then that of the capital exploit.
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    For those who enjoy vanilla AoD, but want to see a much more intelligent AI, more historical events and overall better gameplay then download this mod.

    My work in progress, an Improved 1941 scenario for AoD.

    AARs:
    The BBC Reports! An ten-player online 1936 AoD AAR using the 1.09 changes 25: ongoing

    A three-player online AoD AAR using the Improved 1936 mod - currently reached August 1941: the game has ended but the AAR is in need of updating

    My first AAR playing as Germany using the AoD Third Reich Mod - currently reached August 1945: postponed

  5. #985
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    the main problem here is not the overall low ese in case of bombing the capital. i experienced this also when i played su, the ger player from helsinki bombed moscow and suddenly (less than a month) all my troops was on 1/4 supplies no matter i have more than 10k in reserve. it's a game-breaking bug, but as i already told, u dont have to change the way it works now to solve the problem.

    imo strategic bombing and log strike must be nerfed seriously. they are by far the strongest aspect of the game. not only because capital bombardment, but a well prepared enemy can bomb the very ground under your troops feet to say 5percent. this immediately reduces your troops org regain to zero. in case u decide to retreat you will even lose org.
    1: units in province should be able to shot on planes bombing (or passing by) the province just as AAA (that would give strategical importance to aa brigades what are completly useless now)
    2: AAA is ineffective beyond belief. even with radars. if there is the maximum of 10 in a province i dont want it to be attacked by planes, or i expect serious damage done to the bombers. either make aaa hit harder or give the possibility to deploy say 20 to a province.
    3: tactical bombers should be much less effective on strat bombing missions, to make strat bombers a viable choice. cas should have a very limited strat bombing capacity also (they can attack railroads, bridges... etc)
    4: province repairs shouldnt take ages, its nonsense. irl the bridges were destroyed daylight by americans were restored in a night by germans. it should cost some serious ic (not 0.05 as now), but even a 10 time faster infra repair is acceptable. this way strat bombing can cause serious ic damage (as irl), but can't break the army by itself.
    5: make infra bombing much less effective after 50% of infra or ic is destroyed in a province. its not hard to destroy bridges, railroads, chokepoints if you have air superiority, but to destroy all roads in 15.000 square km (a province) is nonsense.

    I would like to use planes in AoD as they were in irl, mostly in army support role, and secondly on massive carpet bombing missions (which were very ineffective (especially before advanced bombers), and only usefull in the long run)

    And if u restore the importance of ground aa, i would like to see mobil anti aircraft brigades in the armor&artillery research tree

    currently the aod chair-general motto: "heh there is an enemy armor column and they have absolutely no aa with them! we should send the cas in to cause some serious str damage.... hmmm... no, on a second tought we should send in strat bombers and they will never reorganize, even milita can rout them, oh yeah!"
    Last edited by mcganyol; 08-07-2012 at 20:39.

  6. #986
    War is over! if you want it Titan79's Avatar
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    Very goodsuggestions re: air war, Mcganyol. I support more or less all of them. Just a note:

    Quote Originally Posted by mcganyol View Post
    And if u restore the importance of ground aa, i would like to see mobil anti aircraft brigades in the armor&artillery research tree
    Aren't they already in game? Maybe you mean motorized AA brigades?
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  7. #987
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcganyol View Post
    the main problem here is not the overall low ese in case of bombing the capital. i experienced this also when i played su, the ger player from helsinki bombed moscow and suddenly (less than a month) all my troops was on 1/4 supplies no matter i have more than 10k in reserve. it's a game-breaking bug, but as i already told, u dont have to change the way it works now to solve the problem.
    How would you solve the problem? Change the algorithm?

    I agree with all your suggestions regarding air war combat, but still believe resolving the capital exploit should take priority.
    The man who has no sense of history, is like a man who has no ears or eyes - that guy, you know THAT GUY
    There is nothing new in the world except the history you do not know - Harry Truman
    And well, everything can be obvious... but only after you've found it out or someone told you. - Titan79

    For those who enjoy vanilla AoD, but want to see a much more intelligent AI, more historical events and overall better gameplay then download this mod.

    My work in progress, an Improved 1941 scenario for AoD.

    AARs:
    The BBC Reports! An ten-player online 1936 AoD AAR using the 1.09 changes 25: ongoing

    A three-player online AoD AAR using the Improved 1936 mod - currently reached August 1941: the game has ended but the AAR is in need of updating

    My first AAR playing as Germany using the AoD Third Reich Mod - currently reached August 1945: postponed

  8. #988
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    yeah i meant self propelled by "mobile"
    iirc they are available in darkest hour

  9. #989
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    "How would you solve the problem? Change the algorithm?"

    the strat bombing must be toned down (point 5 can be done by changing the algorithm). meanwhile aaa and even aa brigades must be buffed. this will solve the infra destruction problem.

    another problem if the enemy encircle your capital, and not capture it for a long time.

  10. #990
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    IRL the effects of static or mobile AA was pretty low. AA brigades in AoD lower the losses in org an strength as especially CAS has to avoid beeing shot. CAS, TAC and STR have much different surface defence values. CAS can already suffer losses of 1-10% strenght relativly easy, can't they? STR on the other hand have high altitudes and are hard to hit. I am a bit afraid that changing AA may hurt gameplay or plausibilty.

  11. #991
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcganyol View Post
    "How would you solve the problem? Change the algorithm?"

    the strat bombing must be toned down (point 5 can be done by changing the algorithm). meanwhile aaa and even aa brigades must be buffed. this will solve the infra destruction problem.

    another problem if the enemy encircle your capital, and not capture it for a long time.
    That's solving the issue of overpowered strategic bombing but it doesn't solve the capital exploit. Even if the capacity to bomb strategically is weakened the capital exploit would still be there, and IMO there is no reason for it to stay in the game.
    The man who has no sense of history, is like a man who has no ears or eyes - that guy, you know THAT GUY
    There is nothing new in the world except the history you do not know - Harry Truman
    And well, everything can be obvious... but only after you've found it out or someone told you. - Titan79

    For those who enjoy vanilla AoD, but want to see a much more intelligent AI, more historical events and overall better gameplay then download this mod.

    My work in progress, an Improved 1941 scenario for AoD.

    AARs:
    The BBC Reports! An ten-player online 1936 AoD AAR using the 1.09 changes 25: ongoing

    A three-player online AoD AAR using the Improved 1936 mod - currently reached August 1941: the game has ended but the AAR is in need of updating

    My first AAR playing as Germany using the AoD Third Reich Mod - currently reached August 1945: postponed

  12. #992
    Quote Originally Posted by mcganyol View Post
    1: units in province should be able to shot on planes bombing (or passing by) the province just as AAA (that would give strategical importance to aa brigades what are completly useless now)
    I do not think so - in 1940, heavy german AA cannons nedded about 8000 shells to down one strategic bomber - and with light or medium AA cannons, it is impossible to shoot planes that are just passing by if they fly high enough. Also, divisional AA assets were mostly in the 20-40mm autocannon range. E.g. the Heeres-Flakartillerie-Abteilung 304 had (in '43) 12 8,8cm Flak 37, 35 2cm Flak 38 and 6 2cm Flak-Vierling 38 - absolutely not enough to damage a strategic bomber force without depleting its ammunition completely.
    Quote Originally Posted by mcganyol View Post
    2: AAA is ineffective beyond belief. even with radars. if there is the maximum of 10 in a province i dont want it to be attacked by planes, or i expect serious damage done to the bombers. either make aaa hit harder or give the possibility to deploy say 20 to a province.
    See above - 8000 shells for 1 strategic bomber.
    Quote Originally Posted by mcganyol View Post
    3: tactical bombers should be much less effective on strat bombing missions, to make strat bombers a viable choice. cas should have a very limited strat bombing capacity also (they can attack railroads, bridges... etc)
    Strategic bombers are 2 - 2.5 times better than tactical bombers.
    Code:
    Strategic bombardement value for the Models 38/40/43
    Strategic Bomber: 10/15/20
    Tactical Bomber: 4/6/10
    Quote Originally Posted by mcganyol View Post
    4: province repairs shouldnt take ages, its nonsense. irl the bridges were destroyed daylight by americans were restored in a night by germans. it should cost some serious ic (not 0.05 as now), but even a 10 time faster infra repair is acceptable. this way strat bombing can cause serious ic damage (as irl), but can't break the army by itself.
    this can be modded in the "misc.txt"
    Code:
    # Cost to repair Province buildings
    	0.25
    # Time to repair Province buildings
    	0.33
    Quote Originally Posted by mcganyol View Post
    5: make infra bombing much less effective after 50% of infra or ic is destroyed in a province. its not hard to destroy bridges, railroads, chokepoints if you have air superiority, but to destroy all roads in 15.000 square km (a province) is nonsense.
    I compeltely agree with you in this point - a logarithmic bombing scale would be absolutely awesome. E.g if instead of destroying 10% infra per bombing raid it would only destroy 10% of the actual infra, it would take much longer to bomb a province to oblivion.
    Code:
    normal scale: 100/90/80/70/60/50/40/30/20/10/0
    logarithmic scale: 100/90/81/72,9/65,6/59/53,1/47,8/43/38,7/34,9/31,4/28,2/25,4/22,9/20,6/18,5/16,7/15/13,5/12,2/10,9/9,8/8,9/8/7,2/6,5/5,8/5,2/4,7/4,2/3,8/3,4/3,1/2,8/2,5
    Quote Originally Posted by mcganyol View Post
    I would like to use planes in AoD as they were in irl, mostly in army support role, and secondly on massive carpet bombing missions (which were very ineffective (especially before advanced bombers), and only usefull in the long run)
    Only the axis and soviets used their air force mainly in an army support role, US and UK strat bombed and logistical bombed (and terror-bombed) the hell out of Europe and Japan.
    Quote Originally Posted by mcganyol View Post
    And if u restore the importance of ground aa, i would like to see mobil anti aircraft brigades in the armor&artillery research tree
    The 1941 AA brigade model does not reduce speed, also the names of the german units are all mobile aa units (flakpanzer)

  13. #993
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    NiL_FisK|Urd:
    1, i'm aware the fact that AAA was highly ineffective IF the bombers flew at a very high altitude what was mostly the case. however it's a two sided coin, from that altitude they were just as inaccurate and ineffective. the smallest target they were able to hit was a district. the lack of accurate weapons led to the "invention" of carpet bombing. It would be okay if AAA not damaging bombers but instead defend the province from being bombed ('cos they can't hit each other).

    2, still no point in game to build or research AAA. even with the max number developed / up to date tech, they doesn't help.

    3, imo tac bomber (lvl4 and above) are far good enough for strat bombing, strat bombers are absolutely unnecessary currently. i've never seen anyone researching/building them (not in a fungame but in a serious multiplayer).

    4, modding the misc.txt is nice, but not prefered for multiplayer

    6, you may agree that strat bombing missions should have very little effect directly on the army (even on their ese if you can afford the ic for a rapid repair).

    7, i was not aware the fact that aa brigades doesn't reduce speed, but then it's okay as it is.
    Last edited by mcganyol; 09-07-2012 at 04:00.

  14. #994
    @6: that depends - industrial bombing and installation strike should have very little effects on the army, but logistical strikes can cripple an army (as shown in france 1944) - the strat bombing mission is just a combination of these three missions.

    @7: only the 1938 brigade reduces speed by 1

  15. #995
    Logistical strike is already using a logaritmic formula. If you want to reduce its effect further you can modify the value "# Damage factor versus Infra from bombing" from misc.txt
    AoD programmer

  16. #996
    Nice - but is strategic bombardement also using this formula?

  17. #997
    No, strategic bombardment has four possible effects - installation, infra, IC and resources - and the damage is not relative to the current level.
    AoD programmer

  18. #998
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    Quote Originally Posted by NiL_FisK|Urd View Post
    this can be modded in the "misc.txt"
    Code:
    # Cost to repair Province buildings
    	0.25
    # Time to repair Province buildings
    	0.33
    I would like to change these value in the official 108. At least repairing infra takes much too much time.

    Code:
    # Cost to repair Province buildings
    	1.00
    # Time to repair Province buildings
    	0.833
    Quote Originally Posted by mcganyol View Post
    NiL_FisK|Urd:
    1, i'm aware the fact that AAA was highly ineffective IF the bombers flew at a very high altitude what was mostly the case. however it's a two sided coin, from that altitude they were just as inaccurate and ineffective. the smallest target they were able to hit was a district. the lack of accurate weapons led to the "invention" of carpet bombing. It would be okay if AAA not damaging bombers but instead defend the province from being bombed ('cos they can't hit each other).
    So static AA should reduce the damage done to a province like mobile AA does reduce damage done to divisions? Imo that would be a real improvement.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcganyol View Post
    2, still no point in game to build or research AAA. even with the max number developed / up to date tech, they doesn't help.
    If you use aa brigades for ships than you have to research static aa techs. mobile aa is needed for hqs.

  19. #999
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    So static AA should reduce the damage done to a province like mobile AA does reduce damage done to divisions? Imo that would be a real improvement.
    Results should vary according to the type of enemy planes mission!

    - For example, when strategical bombing is issued for a province which has static AA the damage done to a province is reduced and very little damage still has to be done to strat bombers 8some were still hit weren't they?). More static AA present in the province less damage.

    - Missions which require lesser altitudes to be performed would accrue more damage to attacking planes due to the present static AA but it's presence should also reduce damage done to the province.

    How that sounds?
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  20. #1000
    Quote Originally Posted by gunman_ View Post
    No, strategic bombardment has four possible effects - installation, infra, IC and resources - and the damage is not relative to the current level.
    Ok, that means i just log bomb till 30% and then i strat bomb the rest into oblivion (and even destroy AA and such with it)

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