• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
OK accept your recommendations about IL-102 for Soviet CAS-9 and the EADS plane as a French equivalent to the upgraded A-10 Thunderbolt and the Su-39. For the final stealth CAS (model 12), as far as I know that's so futuristic nobody even has anything on the drawing board. Will use Boeing Bird of Prey for everyone. OR may consider instead dropping the model and substituting a long range subsonic strategic bomber--effects similar to the supersonic one but lower cost.

Had to change some of the others because some of your models conflicted with what I had done for the tech tree for Armageddon so I had to review everything. The most difficult thing is properly placing the French planes in the right order. I followed the concepts of generations and equipment, even though some models don't fit my range and speed parameters. May cut maximum range of tac bombers from 2000 to 1500 km.

As for your other idea about the landing ship techs, would you care to write it up in more detail?
 
OK accept your recommendations about IL-102 for Soviet CAS-9 and the EADS plane as a French equivalent to the upgraded A-10 Thunderbolt and the Su-39. For the final stealth CAS (model 12), as far as I know that's so futuristic nobody even has anything on the drawing board. Will use Boeing Bird of Prey for everyone. OR may consider instead dropping the model and substituting a long range subsonic strategic bomber--effects similar to the supersonic one but lower cost.
Actually when I mentioned the French CAS I was talking about the future stealth CAS :) For 95 CAS my proposal would be the F1.CT
The Mirage F1CT is the tactical ground attack version of the Mirage F1C-200. The first two prototypes were conversions. The first flew on 3 May 1991. Another 55 examples followed up to 1995, all being conversions carried out by the workshops of the French Air Force.

The Mirage F1CT program brought the avionics of the F1C up to the standard of the F1CR:
The Cyrano IV radar was replaced by the Cyrano IVM-R.
The navigation/attack system was upgraded and included a laser rangefinder.
Mk 10 ejection seats were added.
Improved radar detection and warning devices, chaff/flare dispensers, and secure radios were also added.
Facilities for a variety of new weapons were added.
Seems like a decent groundpounder = to Su-25T~ :rolleyes: But I leave that up to you.

For stealth CAS the only thing I can think of was the Soviet Sh-90 prototype that disappeared with SU collapse. However it seems to me that currently UCAVs seem to be doing the majority of the CAS. (Afpak, Iraq, Gaza & Lebanon conflicts being prime examples)
Id like to hear your ideas about that

As for your other idea about the landing ship techs, would you care to write it up in more detail?
Sure will have that along with the SOV unit models in the next day or two
 
Thank you for the clarification, the French model will be the F1CT for 95 CAS, which is model number 11. The EADS MAKO/HEAT is actually a trainer aircraft ("High Energy Advanced Trainer") that never got off the ground. Yes I have used trainers to fill gaps in CAS trees, because some buyers adapt them as such, but that would hardly be suitable at this level (I only do that at level 7 or less). CAS 8 and above are meant to reflect the fact that military planners in both the USA and Soviet Union realized that the needs of combat air support cannot be met by old and discarded fighters. CAS planes actually need to be SLOW, have a long loiter time, machine guns, and be able to withstand some degree of attack by small arms fire. CAS 8 was a converted DC-3 transport. CAS-9 was a converted C-130 Hercules. For the Soviet Union this job is filled by hypothetical planes and prototypes. CAS 10 and above have to be dedicated ground support planes. CAS-10 is the A-10 Thunderbolt 2 and Su-25 Frogfoot. CAS-11 is an improvement (Su-39, improvements to Thunderbolt). I'm not sure if the French planes are truly comparable but they fill the list so I won't worry about that. CAS-12 is a look into the future with no clear plans and it's OK if that remains blank for now. It would have to be in my opinion either massed unmanned attack vehicles or a new technology to visually disguise the ship (maybe some holographic technique). It's essentially a sci-fi plane right now. I may actually drop the model in favor of either a long range tac bomber (F-23??) or long-range stealth but subsonic strategic bomber (discussed as an option for the B-3)

SH-90 was a competitor to the Su-39 and canceled in favor of the latter, so it would be level 11 CAS, not level 12.
 
Last edited:
CAS-12 is a look into the future with no clear plans and it's OK if that remains blank for now. It would have to be in my opinion either massed unmanned attack vehicles or a new technology to visually disguise the ship (maybe some holographic technique). It's essentially a sci-fi plane right now. I may actually drop the model in favor of either a long range tac bomber (F-23??) or long-range stealth but subsonic strategic bomber (discussed as an option for the B-3)

SH-90 was a competitor to the Su-39 and canceled in favor of the latter, so it would be level 11 CAS, not level 12.

A-12N/AW or A-10C should be US CAS 11.

Re CAS-12. Only mentioned the Sh-90 as it was a good design for a stealth-ish modern CAS. In the 90s the problem of aircraft survivability in the face of modern ADS was becoming important. (A-10 vs Tunguska/SA-15 are horrible odds) Stealth was seen as the answer. British FOAS, American A-12 Avenger were seen as the next step in CAS. Sh-90 in itself was not stealthy but its weapons were carried internally & any improved variant (Sh-90B/M) would likely be stealth 4 sure.

However this fell out of favor in the face of 2000s conflicts where HALE/MALE UCAVs (out of range of SHORADS) could effortlessly engage ground targets & provide precision engagement for ground forces. MQ-9 Reaper, IAI Eitan/Heron being prime examples. Follow on stealth designs such as BAE Corax or RQ-3 DarkStar are being examined.

Re swarm UCAVs.
Boeing JITSA/Dominator, Rheinmetall Taifun/TARES are next gen swarm UCAVs. These, especially the JITSA (540 suicide drones with 3 EFP warheads each PER C-17 = 1500 precision warheads/ C-17 sortie!! :eek: ) can deliver an especially devestating strike on armored forces (super high hard attack) However they are all suicide drones, as such, they should be considered a cruise missile tech, not a CAS per say.


>>>>>>>>>Amphibious/Transport Ship Tree<<<<<<<<<<<<<
The generic Transport/Generic LR transport/ Generic nuclear transport tree really needs a re-write.. There has been an entire tree of development of amphibious forces in the 20th century thats being completely ignored. Here is my proposition.

Generic Transport, 1936+
800px-C2Ship.jpg

the generic flotilla remains as a standard transport ship group. Converted passenger ships etc. Retains all the stats of the current HOI/AOD version.

Attack Transport Ship (APA/AKA), ~1940 tech. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_transport
USSArcturus.jpg

Wartime transport ships, equipped with some additional armor but more importantly decent AA/DP gun armament. These should be as generic GP transports save additional point of or two of air attack, air defence, shore bombardment & possibly surface attack (but short range 10km max).
Notable ship types: Andromeda class, Arcturus class, Charleston class, Tolland class

Hight Speed Transport (APD), ~1942 tech. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_speed_transport
USS_Begor%3B100412701.jpg

These are refurbished WWI, interwar & newly built destroyer escorts converted into high speed transport. First tried out in campaign of Guadalcanal where it was simply too dangerous to deliver ground forces using standard transports. A high speed armored destroyer with decent defensive armament could deliver couple companies worth of troops onshore & provide fire support at the same time. Less need for escort ships was also a plus. Used mostly by USN & Japanese Imperial Navy in WWII & postwar. Model should be equal in stats on an un-upgraded interwar destroyer flotilla.
Notable ship types: Corsley class, No.1 landing ship, Charles Lawrence class

Landing Ship (LST), ~1944 tech. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_Ship,_Tank
IJN_landing_ship_No149_on_test.jpg

Represented by the ubiquitous LST, the Landing Ship is a multi class of several armored vessels. Landing Ship Infantry, Landing Ship Support, & a few others. Delivered ground units directly to shore or close to shore using landing craft. They were heavily armed & armored allowing them to challenge & support beachhead operations directly. Standard amphibious assault vessel since. Model should be a more armed & armored version of an attack transport.
Notable ship types: No.101/103 landing ship, LST Mk2/Mk3, De Soto County class, Newport class, Type 72 Yukan class, Alligator & Ropucha class, many others.

Landing Dock Platform (LPD), ~1960 tech. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphibious_transport_dock
800px-San_Antonio_class_rendering.jpg

Eventually the idea of using large ships to land units directly onshore or even near it became increasingly difficult to do. Coastal anti-ship missiles & development of precision weapons called for offshore basing of units & using landing craft en mass to deliver the ground forces. These landing ships carried less armor but instead a large helicopter landing deck & advanced docking facilities for landing craft to permit a more varied sea assault. A modern point defense SAM/AD system is usually installed.
Notable ship types: Albion class, Ouragan class, Fearless class, Raleigh class, Austin class, Cleveland class, Type-71 class, Ivan Rogov class

Amphibious Assault Ship (LHD), ~1990 tech. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphibious_assault_ship
800px-USS_Essex_Thailand.jpg

An offshoot of a light carrier design tree (should require adv light carrier tech) The LHD combines the LPD docking facilities with a much larger flight deck, increasing its versatility & striking power. Should be relatively equal in stats to a modern 90s+ light carrier.
Notable ship types: Wasp class, Mistral class, Dokdo class, Juan Carlos class, Canberra class

offshoot. "Commando Carriers" ~1955 tech. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_Platform_Helicopterhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_Helicopter_Assault
USS_Iwo_Jima_(LPH-2)_aft.jpg

Landing Platform Helicopter(LPH)/ Landing Helicopter Assault(LHA)
These are simply light carriers with their airgroup modified to hold a marine contingent & associated helicopter transports. No docking facilities are used, only infantry & associated airgroup. In game terms this should probably be a CVL airgroup with large shore bombardment bonus. Prerequisite helicopter & CVL techs would be needed.

Mobile Offshore Base ~2015 tech. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_offshore_base
vlfs1_big.jpg

Advanced future landing ship. Large offshore mega carrier constructed with modules. ~2km long airstrip would permit large transport planes to deliver supplies & goods. Although large it would be slow & constructed of floating concrete to keep costs down. As such it is not a CVH/CVN replacement. However its modular construction & massive size would give it a good defensive ability. Also large missile cells could provide it with superior shore bombardment & air/ship defense capability akin to a missile ship tech. CVN tech required.

OR (both should be included but one would allow the player to block the other)

WIG/Ekranoplan Landing Flotilla. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lun-class_ekranoplanhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beriev_Be-2500
wig.png

Basically a large, advanced & high speed version of the original Caspian Sea Monster :) Their speed & fuel economy ensures their ability to rapidly deliver ground forces in a very timely manner. Adv transport plane tech required.

The last two could be secret techs as well. Or simply keep them as a future (2015-2020) tech.

Re short range transports. The numbering system causes the AI to build the latest type of unit, regardless of stats. So far the short range transport models (AAV) but also possible LCAC (Zbur) if holding model #s above the LR transports cause the AI to end up with a very short range transport fleet. Kind of a no-no. :( If that can be surmounted than small nations or countries with Brown water navy tech should build SR transports.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the detailed description. I will definitely keep this in mind, but am not sure how to implement the idea because of the AI bug you described.
I believe your 1940 technology should be integrated with long range transport, can be level 1 --adjust the historical year to 1940 and upgrade the stats to include some defensive bonus and all's well. I could implement the other ideas by simply ignoring the range consideration, and accept that the mod is unrealistic on that score but there's nothing that can be done about that. (or just have a massive increase in cost to assume that two sets of ships are built, one for the oceanic transport and the second set would be the ones to which the soldiers are transported for the final landing) The other choice is to treat the landing ships as attachments to something else such as light carriers. In 1.05 for AoD I believe you can actually set the number of attachments each kind of naval ship can have and perhaps I can set that to two for light carriers so they can employ a variety of support operations for landings.
OR doctrines that increase the number of divisions allowed for amphibious landings, increased efficiency of marines landings together with an increase in marines' production cost, etc.
For right now I'll try just having the cost increase but no range penalty for the armored transports.
Probably I'll can the nuclear transports, but not the nuclear light carriers.

For the helicopter assault ships I believe new classes of light carriers are the answer OR new attachments.

The armored transport idea, with a little bit of IC increase might be just what the game needs to support American AI play, as the AI tends to send out unescorted transports with troops aboard. I had a hands off test where the American AI carried out a beautiful landing in China and completely wiped out the Japanese in China, but then could not follow through with killing Japan because it kept sending troops on unescorted transports where they were sitting ducks for the Japanese carrier armadas, which the American AI failed to kill off first.

If you want to do more SKIF icons concentrate on the land forces. I already have done most of the air units for the USA, France, and USSR/Russia. Will tackle things like British, Chinese, Japanese, and hypothetical Third Reich 'Luftwaffe 90' units in the next edition.
 
Last edited:
I like the idea of having seperate trees for the different types of ships, I would also think it would be easier so that nations who are taking such an approach of having helicopter carriers can be represented.

The only thing is, you're thinking of putting in hypothetical ships and such, that 2024 endline now seems so short given that let's say you make such experimental tech and only get some short years to play around with it.

Now granted though these techs could be revolutionary and critical in winning a war, depending on the state of the world by 2015 or so. But also gotta figure there is prodcution time too.

In anycase like to see you guys are looking into all this in greater detail, can't wait to see this stuff implimented!

Quick question though what are the post Cold War Doctrine trees looking like? Or are they on the backburner for now?
 
Good question! I've done some work on the asymmetric warfare doctrines likely to be used by insurgents, but have not done that much on the conventional doctrines, and only have general ideas. Some ideas have been mentioned like "shock and awe". Probably C4I and maybe C5I will be included. But what I really expect is this--after all possible published doctrines are implemented, to just have this:
Starting in 1970, and accelerating somewhat after the year 2000, the new infantry aircraft, etc technologies would have a side effect, causing the LOSS of 1 max-organization, morale, etc. In other words you get a trade-off: You can have old technology units that know how to fight or newer technology units requiring ADDITIONAL doctrines so that the soldiers know how to use the new equipment. So until they get the training (new doctrines) the advances in unit stats would be counterbalanced by an overall drop in the general combat level (not very much for one researched technology but it adds up).
One of the things pointed out by IceHawk is the increased use of armor and vehicles by supposedly foot soldiers (except for bergsjaeger). This is in my opinion a good area/reason to implement the concept of max_org/morale REDUCTION with increased technology.
My general thoughts are
1) Concept of quick vs long war
2) Command Control Communications Computers Intelligence (C4I)
3) Increased emphasis on low intensity counterinsurgency conflicts
4) Concept of "latest and greatest" weaponry vs development of infrastructure/ mass production (the old Warsaw/NATO doctrinal conflict revisited)
5) Third World nations previously on Modern Infantry have to now learn about armor
6) Those on US, German or Soviet trees now have to learn more about dealing with asymmetric warfare.
7) Doctrines to learn about how to use the new equipment/new tactics

In the next version you should see at least some implementation of the asymmetric warfare concept.
 
Just wanted to share that the Landing Ship Tank vessels apparently gained a nickname from the US marines. They called them Large Stationary Targets.

Not sure if it's true, but it's a nice little story.
 
Game crash May 1954

I'm playing The Cold War 1945 as the Communist Chinese. I'm in the month of May, 1954, and got an event titled Nationalist Vietnam. I then got two events relating to Ho Chi Minh; two days later, the game crashed. Any ideas?
 
There is no way around Beriev Be-2500, all can i say as WiC veteran:D

Oh I agree :D Plus it does really change the way naval strategy would work. Slow moving Western naval forces with sea superiority vs Eastern/Soviet concept of highly mobile ekranoplans would make things interesting! :)

While were on the Soviet topic, their ground tree is done:

Soviet Infantry
sovinf.png

Note: The last two models (~2000 & 2010 inf will show Infantry Mobility Vehicle pics) Here GAZ Tigr & BPM-97
The baseline IMVs will be a 4x4 Lt Armored IMV (HMMVW type) & 2005+ Mine protected IMV (MRAP type)

Soviet Air Cavalry
sovaircav.png

Mi-4AV, Mi-6, Mi-8TV, Mi-8TVK, Mi-8AMTSh, Ka-29TB, Mi-26, Mi-38, Mi-42

Soviet Motorized/APC Infantry
sovmotorized.png

BTR-152K, BTR-60A, BTR-60PB, BTR-70, BTR-80, BTR-80A, BTR-90, BTR-90M

Soviet Mechanized/IFV Infantry
sovmech.png

BTR-50 TOPAS-2AP, BMP-1, BMP-1P, BMP-2, BMP-2PG, BMP-3, BMP-3M

Soviet Armor
sovarmor.png

T-80BV, T-80U
Notes: Soviet Armor tree posted earlier is absolutely correct except these two models. T-84 is a Ukrainian post breakup design. These two should replace them instead, equal to the M1 & M1A1 approximately.

Soviet Airborne
sovairborne.png

ASU-57, ASU-85, BMD-1, BMD-2, BMD-3, BMD-4
Notes: Not sure if you want mech or inf based airborne model pics. For now here are the mech variants, later I can make inf if needed.

Soviet Naval Infantry
sovnavalinf.png

BTR-50PK, BTR-60PB, BTR-70, BMP-2F, BMP-3F, BMP-3MF

Soviet Mountain Inf
sovmountain.png


Soviet Garrison & Soviet Militia
sovgarmil.png

65, 85, 05 garrison & Early CW & Late CW Mil

Grab it Here: http://www.mediafire.com/?cc0j72ap7piqz94

US Ground tree is next
 
Last edited:
Just wanted to share that the Landing Ship Tank vessels apparently gained a nickname from the US marines. They called them Large Stationary Targets.

Not sure if it's true, but it's a nice little story.

I have the book FUBAR and there the LST means Large Slow Target or Long Slow Target :rofl:
 
I'm playing The Cold War 1945 as the Communist Chinese. I'm in the month of May, 1954, and got an event titled Nationalist Vietnam. I then got two events relating to Ho Chi Minh; two days later, the game crashed. Any ideas?

Send the savegame prior to the crash for analysis please.

IceHawk,
thank you for the icons. I'll put them in the package but no more please. That's because I have decided to junk the SKIF template. I tried it on my system and found myself unhappy with them. The problem is that if units use oil the oil drop is right smack over the roundel you use to tell the nationality. In the modern day world this is designed for, that means that it's difficult to tell the nationality of almost any unit since most modern units, even infantry, use oil. After some experimenting I came up with a new template which I will experimentally implement on the following units:
1951 Infantry East and West Germany
1951 Infantry North and South Korea
1951 Infantry India and Pakistan
1951 Infantry USA, France, Soviet Union, Nationalist China, Communist China, UK and Japan
I'll not officially include SKIF icons as part of the mod but will post a link as soon as I'm done integrating your icons, even before getting out the next release of the mod. So SKIF will be a temporarily recommended download while working on a permanent solution.
 
IceHawk,
thank you for the icons. I'll put them in the package but no more please. That's because I have decided to junk the SKIF template. I tried it on my system and found myself unhappy with them. The problem is that if units use oil the oil drop is right smack over the roundel you use to tell the nationality. In the modern day world this is designed for, that means that it's difficult to tell the nationality of almost any unit since most modern units, even infantry, use oil.

How about simply changing the oil icon graphic itself - That would appear to be the easiest solution really :confused:
 
Well I tried looking for an oil icon and I can't find any. Likely it's included as part of some megagraphic file. I do have a new template and the icons look smashing. I converted the Soviet ones to the new style with some automated tools I designed. So your work was not in vain. When I have the others you did (French and generic land units) converted I'll put up the file along with the others I promised. So We can use SKIF for the time being. (Includes several other nationalities, such as India, North and South Korea, DDR, Cuba, Russia that were never in SKIF). The SKIF icons are OK for ships, so that will stay as is.
 
BigRIJoe
You'll have to try again. What you posted was a generic link to personal accounts and what I get when I click on that is MY personal account. You need to go to the specific file and find the url, copy and paste it.
 
Here's a link to SKIF icons --the whole set
http://www.mediafire.com/?khjj548bab1o882
I've also included icon generators. Anyone planning to generate icons for the mod please use the NEW template.

BigRIJoe,
I got your save and will analyze it when I have time. You played Communist China ahistorically to say the least.
 
Last edited:
Here's a link to SKIF icons --the whole set
http://www.mediafire.com/?khjj548bab1o882
I've also included icon generators. Anyone planning to generate icons for the mod please use the NEW template.

Cool, will use that from now on!

Another idea I thought about & modded was simply to use the JSGME mod enabler to transfer window skins from GIP, MDS or other mods depending on the decades to have a more historical skins/look. Maybe the JSGME could be utilized to change the flags as well?