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Cold War Extension for AoD

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fizy45 said:
But even Ussr and Usa goes open war there should be still massive dissent for using nuclear weapons cause in 1980 both sides has hundreas of nukes lets just put the game and say that you give them 100 nukes each thats too much even 50 nukes is much what happens if I lauch them first the enemy nation goes off before war.That is how would happen in realworld of course but its not fun to play.If I use a nuke as Usa give me 30 or 40 dissent and same for Ussr so I use them at minimum numbers and only If I have no other choice...

Hope you understand my point of course its your mod and its up to you to decide...
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Nukes numbered tens of thousands for the superpowers at that time. But I definitely think large stocks of nukes should be included, this will give the player a good reason to start building strategic weapons such as strategic bombers, ICBMs and cheaper shorter range ballistic missiles for closer targets, nuclear submarines... It's great for RP value, mostly in MP which is exactly what I would play it in. But if possible I would want to see the silly dissent hit from nukes removed, and perhaps lower the damage caused by them somewhat, unless you limit the number of nukes to a couple of thousand (1 to 10 scale).
 
Samilou said:
But if possible I would want to see the silly dissent hit from nukes removed, and perhaps lower the damage caused by them somewhat, unless you limit the number of nukes to a couple of thousand (1 to 10 scale).
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I would also like to see the dissent removed, I mean you can coup right after two-three nukes... (25 dissent each nuke, right? correct me if I am wrong) with very high chance of sucess.
 
Azzinoth104 said:
I would also like to see the dissent removed, I mean you can coup right after two-three nukes... (25 dissent each nuke, right? correct me if I am wrong) with very high chance of sucess.
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Coups are not possible in AoD.
 
There are some things that change due to the different mechanics of AOD. When I tested the save the Korean War triggered normally and went more or less historically except that the North did not make an initial advance. South Korea reached the Chinese border early (September) triggering Chinese intervention.

In the HOI2 model there are 6 nations with the maximum number of teams--the USA, UK, USSR, France, Japan and China. But in AOD only the USA, UK and USSR have the maximum number of teams in the Cold War. This makes the Warsaw Pact stronger in AOD than in HOI2. In HOI2 there are 5 max tech slot Allied nations to swap blueprints vs only two in AOD. The Soviets are getting technologies a bit too early so I'll have to look at their teams and maybe adjust the strengths, or not give so many blueprints to the USSR, even though they were quite historical, and probably make the technology theft events for the Warsaw Pact less frequent.

Nationalist China holds out longer vs the Communists in AOD, but actually closer to historical. PRC was proclaimed from your save game in November 1949 vs Oct 1 IRL. BTW in my own trial I was able as Nationalist China to crush the communists and reunite China by late 1946. In 0.14a the Nationalist victory doesn't really work quite right but in 0.15 it will.

In AOD, military victories are harder to achieve than in HOI2, making some campaigns take longer.

Also there are too many units. There are a host of other modifiers that are usually invoked by ministers that I may have to look at for incorporation into the technology tree. One possibility is to mod an ever-increasing need for consumer goods into the technology tree.

I also noted that North Korea is less efficient at producing units than South Korea, and in fact the reverse should be true, at least before 1950.

Guantanamo Bay will be added as a US-cored province in the next release (but Cuba will still claim it), and the existing Guantanamo province will be renamed Santiago de Cuba.
 
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nomonhan said:
There are some things that change due to the different mechanics of AOD. When I tested the save the Korean War triggered normally and went more or less historically except that the North did not make an initial advance. South Korea reached the Chinese border early (September) triggering Chinese intervention.

In the HOI2 model there are 6 nations with the maximum number of teams--the USA, UK, USSR, France, Japan and China. But in AOD only the USA, UK and USSR have the maximum number of teams in the Cold War. This makes the Warsaw Pact stronger in AOD than in HOI2. The Soviets are getting technologies a bit too early so I'll have to look at their teams and maybe adjust the strengths, or not give so many blueprints to the USSR, even though they were quite historical.

In AOD, military victories are harder to achieve than in HOI2, making some campaigns take longer.

Also there are too many units. There are a host of other modifiers that are usually invoked by ministers that I may have to look at for incorporation into the technology tree. One possibility is to mod an ever-increasing need for consumer goods into the technology tree.

I also noted that North Korea is less efficient at producing units than South Korea, and in fact the reverse should be true, at least before 1950.
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For us, no event of Chinese intervention triggered. As I said before, the US was involved in the war (although I did not actually contribute to the South Korean war effort, except for strategic bombing which is quite historical, and South Korea never did that even though they had strategic bombers) even though it shouldn't (wasn't in the same alliance because of the events, had picked option B for the start of the war).
 
Chinese intervention only occurs if you reach the Chinese border. If, due to luck or skill you manage to get all three northern provinces of NK at once you can annex NK and the war is over.

The strategic bombers are represented as South Korean planes even though they are US planes because officially the US is not in the war. If they were officially in the war they would surely bury North Korea unless the Soviets got involved to stop them.

When did the war start for you and did the PRC achieve victory over the nationalists first?

Were there some silly DOWs that complicated things?

Please send me the savegame file after the war starts and China fails to intervene as you believe they should.
 
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nomonhan said:
Chinese intervention only occurs if you reach the Chinese border. If, due to luck or skill you manage to get all three northern provinces of NK at once you can annex NK and the war is over.

The strategic bombers are represented as South Korean planes even though they are US planes because officially the US is not in the war. If they were officially in the war they would surely bury North Korea unless the Soviets got involved to stop them.

When did the war start for you and did the PRC achieve victory over the nationalists first?

Were there some silly DOWs that complicated things?

Please send me the savegame file after the war starts and China fails to intervene as you believe they should.
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It's the same game that Azzinoth played in, he's got most of the saves and we don't have anything better, although Azzinoth has the history for what happened during the war (later saves). As I said before (previous page?) Persia (we had edited the puppetship out) and Spain dowed North Korea even though they were not among the US allies at that point. The Chinese civil war was already over. The Korean war started sometime in 1950

And yes all the provinces except for the northeasternmost one were occupied at the same time, no event fired in time before the AI SK annexed it all after a VERY brief Korean war entirely in SK's favour from start, with the USA (me), involuntarily in the war as a non-ally of SK. I'd suggest adding keypoints to all provinces in South and North Korea, nerfing SK while strengthening NK, making sure that USA always peaces out with NK after the war starts unless it has chosen option a on that event, and reduce Nationalist Spain's and Persia's aggressiveness.
 
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I'm suspicious that the keypoint event, adding keypoints to ALL Korean provinces did not fire, so request you or Azinoth submit at least a history log, if not a full savegame after the war starts. Will look for the AI files for Spain and Persia to make sure all war-like behavior is edited out. Likely if that is taken care of things would work correctly. Most likely you were in a general US-USSR war because of silly DOWs. Am I right?

Yes SK needs to be nerfed a bit in the 45-50 period. May add a negative IC modifier.

Am also considering, for the sake of realism, delaying the deployment of Allied Units to South Korea until at least one province is lost--Seoul ought to change hands if nothing else. Or might try and see if I can send them but locked in Busan until one province is lost.
 
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nomonhan said:
I'm suspicious that the keypoint event, adding keypoints to ALL Korean provinces did not fire, so request you or Azinoth submit at least a history log, if not a full savegame after the war starts.
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There is save games after the war. I will ask Azzinoth to upload one. It is possible that this event did fire, South Korea might have taken the last province before annexing.

Will look for the AI files for Spain and Persia to make sure all war-like behavior is edited out. Likely if that is taken care of things would work correctly. Most likely you were in a general US-USSR war because of silly DOWs. Am I right?
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No, North Korea joined the Soviet alliance, then they all joined the war with Persia and Spain. But it could have led to USSR-USA war if Spain or Persia were US allies, but they weren't.

Yes SK needs to be nerfed a bit in the 45-50 period. May add a negative IC modifier.

Am also considering, for the sake of realism, delaying the deployment of Allied Units to South Korea until at least one province is lost--Seoul ought to change hands if nothing else. Or might try and see if I can send them but locked in Busan until one province is lost.
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IC is not really the (not the historical one at least) solution, the issue that South Korea faced was an inferior (both in terms of equipment and experience) army compared to the North, and a lack of US presence in Korea at the time. So you simply need to nerf the South Korean army, and maybe add experience to Northern units (as these were to a large part consisting of veteran units, as opposed to the barely rifle-drilled army of the South).

Think you can trigger the US reinforcements in whatever beached province is still standing, with a very likely random trigger after a couple of provinces have fallen? North Korean will thus have to race with time. Hope the AI can handle that though...
 
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Actually IC would be a perfectly good solution. The south was inferior in IC at first and the US plan was actually for Korea to be an agricultural country. It was the Korean leaders who decided to build an export-oriented industrial economy. As a result of the Korean War, the US actually decided to build up the Japanese auto industry so that tank production, in the event of another war, could take place closer to the front line. Probably there was some spinoff effect on South Korea as well. It wasn't until the 1960s that the South overtook the North's economy (due to the North's stagnation). What I'll likely do is nerf the south's industry at first, then bring it online during the 1950's, maybe when the Korean War starts some of the US IC is transferred permanently to South Korea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_South_Korea

http://internationalbusiness.wikia.com/wiki/Industrialization_in_South_Korea

Also it is, I believe impossible to add experience to a unit created by event. Experienced units have to be defined by the scenario, which is pretty hard to do for a country that does not exist at the scenario start. But I could put them in at a higher tech level (e.g. 47 instead of 45) or just put in more of them, or just add another tank division, etc.
 
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Thank you for the save. I have determined the problem with the Korean War. In the Cold War period, ALL local wars have to be coded so as to break alliances first before the DOW. This was not properly done in BOTH Korean War events. There are two Korean war events--one that happens on the historical date and another that can fire somewhat early or somewhat late, due to the fact that the Chinese Civil War might end early or late. What happened was that you got the war from the random date event, which was not coded correctly.

In the next release, this will be fixed as follows:
1) In events 49 and 612007 (NK's decision to go to war) NK will no longer DOW SK, but will break the alliance and be charged with the belligerence for the DOW in advance, triggering SK event 3895
2) 3895 already correctly breaks the alliance but will be modified to lower the belligerence for SK after its DOW on NK.

In the next few days expect release 0.15 to fix these issues and take care of whatever else I've managed to finish by then.
If you want an immediate fix, here's the code:
file: events_vl\hoi2plus.txt, replace event 49
Code: 
event = {
	id = 49
	random = no
	country = PRK

	name = EVT_49_NAME
	desc = EVT_49_DESC
       picture = "korean_war"
	style = 0

	trigger = {
		exists = KOR
		NOT = { exists = GER }
		# added control checks for CHC-Kim Il Sung was unwilling to
		# start Korean War without assurance of either CHC or SOV
		# support and Stalin did not give this.-nomonhan
		control = { province = 1205 data = CHC } #Beijing
		control = { province = 1235 data = CHC } #Nanjing
		control = { province = 1280 data = CHC } #Chongqing
		control = { province = 1313 data = CHC } #Guangzhou
		control = { province = 1377 data = CHC } # CHC
		control = { province = 1378 data = CHC } # PRK
		control = { province = 1394 data = CHC } # border
		# CHC must own China--new for Cold War 0.23
		owned = { province = 1235 data = CHC } #Nanjing
		owned = { province = 1313 data = CHC } #Guangzhou
		owned = { province = 1280 data = CHC } #Chongqing
		NOT = { ispuppet = CHC }
		NOT = { atwar = CHC } # Communists won Chi civil war
		# new for Cold War 0.23--Xibei San Ma must not exist
		NOT = { exists = CXB }
		# NOT = { alliance = { country = CHC country = SOV } }
		atwar = no
		OR = {
			event = 45 # Japan already surrendered
			event = 6877 # alternate surrender
			NOT = {
				exists = JAP
			}
		}
		OR = {
			random = 5
			year = 1952
		}
	}

        date = { day = 0 month = january year = 1939 }
        offset = 12
	deathdate = { day = 29 month = december year = 1964 }


	action_a = {
		name = EVT_49_ACTA
		command = { type = end_puppet }
		command = { type = leave_alliance } # SOV does not want WW3 - historically disowns PRK war
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 3810 } # SOV puppet
		# command = { type = war which = KOR }  war must occur after alliances broken
		command = { type = belligerence value = 10 }
		# due to need to break alliances SK will break alliances and DOW NK but NK charged with the belligerence
		command = { type = set_relation which = SOV value = -50 }
		command = { type = set_relation which = CHC value = -20 }
		command = { type = domestic which = political_left value = 2 }
		command = { type = domestic which = freedom value = -2 }
		command = { type = domestic which = democratic value = -2 }
		command = { type = domestic which = defense_lobby value = 2 }
		# necessary to make sure PRK doesn't get annexed with fall of Pyongyang
		command = { type = province_keypoints which = 1200 value = 1 }
		command = { type = province_keypoints which = 1391 value = 1 }
		command = { type = province_keypoints which = 1392 value = 1 }
		command = { type = province_keypoints which = 1393 value = 1 }
		command = { type = province_keypoints which = 1376 value = 1 }
		command = { type = trigger which = 3895 } # KOR
	}
	action_b = {
		name = EVT_70_ACTB
		command = { }
	}
}
file: events_vl\east_asia.txt, replace event 612007
Code: 
### Backup event to start Korean War on real date if not started
event = {
	id = 612007
	random = no
	country = PRK

	name = EVT_49_NAME
	desc = EVT_49_DESC
       picture = "korean_war"
	style = 0

	trigger = {
		exists = KOR
		NOT = { exists = GER }
		# added control checks for CHC-Kim Il Sung was unwilling to
		# start Korean War without assurance of either CHC or SOV
		# support and Stalin did not give this.-nomonhan
		control = { province = 1205 data = CHC } #Beijing
		control = { province = 1235 data = CHC } #Nanjing
		control = { province = 1280 data = CHC } #Chongqing
		control = { province = 1313 data = CHC } #Guangzhou
		control = { province = 1377 data = CHC } # CHC
		control = { province = 1378 data = CHC } # PRK
		control = { province = 1394 data = CHC } # border
		# CHC must own China--new for Cold War 0.23
		owned = { province = 1235 data = CHC } #Nanjing
		owned = { province = 1313 data = CHC } #Guangzhou
		owned = { province = 1280 data = CHC } #Chongqing
		NOT = { ispuppet = CHC }
		NOT = { atwar = CHC } # Communists won Chi civil war
		# new for Cold War 0.23--Xibei San Ma must not exist
		NOT = { exists = CXB }
		# NOT = { alliance = { country = CHC country = SOV } }
		atwar = no
		NOT = { event = 49 }
		OR = {
			event = 45 # Japan already surrendered
			event = 6877 # alternate surrender
			NOT = {
				exists = JAP
			}
		}
	}

        date = { day = 24 month = june year = 1950 }


	action_a = {
		name = EVT_49_ACTA
		command = { type = end_puppet }
		command = { type = leave_alliance } # SOV does not want WW3 - historically disowns PRK war
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 49 } # other Kor War
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 3810 } # SOV puppet
		# command = { type = war which = KOR } war must occur after alliances broken
		command = { type = belligerence value = 10 }
		# due to need to break alliances SK will break alliances and DOW NK but NK charged with the belligerence
		command = { type = set_relation which = SOV value = -50 }
		command = { type = set_relation which = CHC value = -20 }
		command = { type = domestic which = political_left value = 2 }
		command = { type = domestic which = freedom value = -2 }
		command = { type = domestic which = democratic value = -2 }
		command = { type = domestic which = defense_lobby value = 2 }
		# necessary to make sure PRK doesn't get annexed with fall of Pyongyang
		command = { type = province_keypoints which = 1200 value = 1 }
		command = { type = province_keypoints which = 1391 value = 1 }
		command = { type = province_keypoints which = 1392 value = 1 }
		command = { type = province_keypoints which = 1393 value = 1 }
		command = { type = province_keypoints which = 1376 value = 1 }
		command = { type = trigger which = 3895 } # KOR
	}
	action_b = {
		name = EVT_70_ACTB
		command = { }
	}
}
file: events_vl\japan_korea.txt, replace event 3895
Code: 
event = {
	id = 3895
	random = no
	country = KOR

	name = EVT_49_NAME
	desc = EVT_49_DESC
       	picture = "korean_war"
	style = 0
        	# triggered by #49 or 612007

	action_a = {
		name = "OK" #
		#add kepoints to equalize NK
		command = { type = province_keypoints which = 1194 value = 1 }
		command = { type = province_keypoints which = 1195 value = 1 }
		command = { type = province_keypoints which = 1196 value = 1 }
		command = { type = province_keypoints which = 1197 value = 1 }
		command = { type = province_keypoints which = 1198 value = 1 }
		command = { type = end_puppet }
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 3811 } # puppet of USA
		command = { type = leave_alliance } # temporary hopefully
		command = { type = war which = PRK }
		command = { type = belligerence value = -20 } # NK not SK charged with belligerence for DOW
		command = { type = trigger which = 614000 } #USA
	}
}

Because the war occurs outside of all alliances, the Soviet Union, its allies , and China, will no longer receive belligerence for the DOW--only NK will be charged, even though the savegame will record SK as the technical aggressor.
 
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Apparently one of the features of AOD is that if either an event or option doesn't actually do anything, it is not presented to you. I don't yet have von Schleicher in the files so he can't be slept, which means the "Keep Hitler" option is not presented to you.
Fixes (use any one of these, you don't have to use all):
1) load as somebody else, save the game at 3:00 AM and reload as Germany (skips event)
2) add a dummy command like
command = { type = sleepevent which = 2095 }
to option_a of event 2090 (file: events_vl\germany.txt
or 3) open your db\ministers_ger.csv file in Notepad and tack these ministers onto the end:
Code: 
260;Head of Military Intelligence;Reinhard Gehlen;1947;FA;Dismal Enigma;High;M150;x
270;Head of State;Reinhard Heydrich;1963;NS;Powerhungry Demagogue;Very High;M244;x
271;Head of State;Ernst Kaltenbrunner;1963;NS;Powerhungry Demagogue;Very High;M138;x
272;Head of State;Baldur von Schirach;1963;FA;Benevolent Gentleman;Medium;M143;x
273;Head of Government;Otto Ernst Remer;1963;NS;Old General;High;M273;x
274;Foreign Minister;Rudolf von Ribbentrop;1963;NS;Biased Intellectual;High;M274;x
275;Minister of Armament;Werner von Braun;1949;NS;Theoretical Scientist;High;M275;x
276;Minister of Security;Paul Dickopf;1963;FA;Crime Fighter;High;M276;x
280;Head of State;Kurt von Schleicher;1933;SC;Insignificant Layman;High;M280;x
281;Head of Government;Kurt von Schleicher;1933;SC;Backroom Backstabber;High;M280;x
282;Head of State;Otto Wels;1933;SC;Insignificant Layman;High;M282;x
283;Head of Government;Hans Vogel;1933;SC;Silent Workhorse;High;M283;x
284;Head of State;Wilhelm II;1933;SC;Weary Stiffneck;High;M36;x
285;Head of State;Wilhelm III;1942;SC;Benevolent Gentleman;High;M37;x
286;Minister of Armament;Kurt von Schleicher;1933;SC;Military Entrepreneur;High;M280;x

Addendum For Korean War
next edition will make these changes
1) increase tech level of Soviet intervention North Korean infantry from 5 to 6.
2) subtract 5 from the built IC of SK on independence--it will now get the same as North Korea, not more.
3) US intervention event builds 2 IC in Busan
4) Add 'Chaebol' events for South Korea from 1960 to early 1990s increasing IC. By the end of the millenium, South Korea should be a 3-tech slot nation. South Korea is a resource-poor nation but will get some free money representing the export economy.
5) There will be no changes yet in the intervention events on behalf of the south--the first event only gives 3 units and strategic bombers. Later events give enough units to stem the tide. Hopefully SK should have about two fewer units when the war starts and thus lose a province. If that fails I'll have to look at redoing the events.

It will probably take until at least 0.16 to get the Korean War working exactly right so I can go on to preparing for 1956. In the next release you'll see the Movimiento de 26 Julio tag, and hopefully I'll get done with the Cuban ministers and tech teams.

Re: Soviet technology research speed. When I looked at the save, I saw that research speed was set at 100%. I believe the game design calls for an expected setting of 75% so as of now I don't consider the research of the Soviet Union ahistorical. Azzinoth104 was just taking advantage of an AOD feature, instead of using the historical path of intensive spying.

Re:
Nuclear weapons. I'll have to eventually address the issue somehow. I have not tested nuclear warfare at all. I do have some extra super-cheap but highly destructive ICBMs, which could be unlocked by event to simulate thermonuclear war. If you don't want to wait for me, you can write your own event to unlock these. I think the event should be dependent on possession of the "H-bomb Mass Production" (Secret Weapons) and "Nuclear proliferation" (Air Doctrines) technologies plus the fact that you are at war and have authorized nuclear weapons. The time for mass destruction should be a matter of weeks. When your IC is less than 50 they should be disabled again. I admit that in real life the time would be 24 hours but this is the best I can do, and it should be good enough to bring about the emergence of a new world power when the existing majors destroy themselves. There should be no need for massive dissent. The fact that you've screwed yourself and let some non-involved second-tier nation take over the planet should be punishment enough.
 
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Quick question, is there an event as Germany to release Scandinavia cause I looked and I couldn't find it...so I released them myself and got that lovely anger over colonial policy dissent hit, LOL. So was just curious.
 
There's no event to release Scandinavia. To avoid the dissent hit, immediately release them from puppetry, so they are an ally but not a puppet. If you don't like Paradox's decisions about that, feel free to enter 'event 666666' from the console. You can choose your fix. Of course some might regard it as cheating while others might regard it as a perfectly acceptable answer to certain things in the game that are not right. Use it at your discretion as often or as little as you want.
 
Re:
I do have some extra super-cheap but highly destructive ICBMs, which could be unlocked by event to simulate thermonuclear war.
Click to expand...

Are you referring to the "nuclear ICBM" from CWTE for HOI2? They were kind of useless for destroying provinces for more than a few days in HOI2, but I guess the more difficult process of repairing provinces in AoD makes up for it pretty well though. Do you know if it is possible to make these cause some permanent damage as well?
 
Thanks for the heads up I was wondering what triggered that.

nomonhan said:
There's no event to release Scandinavia. To avoid the dissent hit, immediately release them from puppetry, so they are an ally but not a puppet. If you don't like Paradox's decisions about that, feel free to enter 'event 666666' from the console. You can choose your fix. Of course some might regard it as cheating while others might regard it as a perfectly acceptable answer to certain things in the game that are not right. Use it at your discretion as often or as little as you want.
Click to expand...
 
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