Rome Expansion - The Definitive List

[Emperor Leo]

Ok, so I was thinking about a potential Rome expansion. I know this is a frequent topic on this section of the forum and it grows a bit tiresome, but I'm hoping that this topic will have a bit more order to it. What I intend to do, is take everyone's ideas (which are posted in this topic) and try to formulate a "definitive" list of features, additions, gameplay ideas we'd like to see that I will update on this first post.

The reason for this is to make a list that Paradox can easily see without having to trawl through multiple posts. Here forum members can discuss pros and cons of suggested ideas.

NOTE: This is NOT a petition for a new Rome expansion, nor is it going to be a list of "demands" for Paradox. If Paradox has no intentions of releasing a Rome expansion, then that's fair enough. This is simply a nice, legible way to get our ideas accross to Paradox.

So, feel free to start brainstorming. Also, if any Mods or Admins consider this to be another pointelss expansion thread, then feel free to delete!

Expansion Ideas

Campaign Map / Countries / Factions / Provinces

• I think it's been established that the game map needs to be extended East to a degree. The furthest point potentially being the Indus River. This would open the possibility of including the Maurya Empire on the Seleucid Eastern front, Scythia and Turkic tribes to the North and Arab tribes to the south (Saudi Arabia).
• Additional provinces and playable tribes in Britannia, Gaul and Germania.
• Greater detail added to barbarian tribes. Need to review current Barbarian system. Added ability to communicate with Barbarians. Barbarians need to be able to colonise under certain circumstances and become recognised nations.
• Review of current Province values in Peace Treaties.
• Addition of Regional Decisions.
• Addition of specific Province Decisions (e.g. "Rebuild the Collossus").
• Ability to form nations via decisions (e.g. form "Greece").
• More playable factions in general.
• More provinces needed.
• Parthians need to be more of a threat (especially if the map is extended East)
• Random Barbarian hordes should spawn in Fog of War.
• Option to "Attack Natives" rather than waiting for the natives to rise up.
• Ability to move provinces from one region to another.
• Multiple minority cultures within a province.

Combat / Units

• Added sea units to add variety and make sea combat more interesting.
• Different land unit types. Maybe culture specific units?
• Tech paths for units.
• Add Siege units.
• More dynamic combat options. Don't auto-battle when 2 opposing units meet.
• Ability to sort cohorts in an army without it causing lost loyalty in the General.
• Inclusion of Chariots as a combat unit.
• Siege options for both sides.
• Effects for specific characters when leading an army.
• Ability to loan troops to allies.
• More cultural variation in unit sprites.

Diplomacy

• New CB system, similar to the new EU3:HTTT system.
• Seperate vassalage and tribute systems to work independently of each other.
• Ability to Diplo-Annex
• Ability to issue Warnings
• Ability to issue Demands
• Ability to request Royal Marriages
• Ability to choose suitors for Ruler and Heirs.
• Ability to release vassals / tributaries.
• Tone down impact religion has on diplomacy / relations.
• Trade needs to be reviewed. May need to elaborate.
• More possible relations with Senators / Governors from home nation.
• Triumph tag to allocate titles to Generals.
• Benefits to having vassals and not annexing every nation you defeat.
• Be able to use captured characters towards war score.

Timeline

• The general consensus seems to point toward a timeline that turns the clocks back rather than forward. A subtle increase going back to 323BC (431AUC) would take us to the death of Alexander, the Partition of Babylon and would provide a struggle for Rome in it's Italian wars.

Game Features

• New weather / seasons addition. Similar to the system used in EUIII.
• Increased attrition during winter months
• Certain government types should allow two rulers (e.g. Rome has 2 Consuls, Sparta has 2 Kings, etc).
• Ability to rename provinces.
• Map is too "safe". Add natural disasters.
• 3 Way Civil Wars
• Condottieri bands. Roving mercenary groups.
• Option to continue playing as the victorious nation after you are defeated in war.
• An in-game notepad.
• A character tracker to keep an eye on promising characters.
• More titles to hand out and more variety in rewards / consequences for giving the title.
• Improved GUI, with added images for inventions, decisions, etc. just to add to atmosphere / immersion.

Coding / Mod Tools

• Un-hard code units to allow mods to add and subtract unit types.
• Freedom to mod the current Start / End dates.
• Ability to add or modify regional decisions if they were added to the game.
• Birth_province as a trigger for titles.
• All diplomatic options should be moddable.
• Intrigue and Diplomacy missions should be moddable.

[Emp_Palpatine]

- Something east to the Seleucids.

IMHO one of the biggest flaw of current EU Rome status.

[legatus123]

During winter months, sea travel almost nil and military campaigns were less frequent due to logistical problems espcecially in the uncivilized areas. Perhaps higher attrition during winter months may represent this.

[Emperor Leo]

- Something east to the Seleucids.

Was you thinking of a larger map in general or vassal countries with the Seleucid Empire within the current map?

Perhaps higher attrition during winter months may represent this.

So, a new weather / seasons system or simply extra attrition during say October - March (for example)?

Both great ideas! Keep them coming. I'll update the main post in a bit.

[TheLoneGunman]

A CB system similar to the one in HttT would be great also.

The Romans and other nations at the time often went to war for varying reasons and with varying objectives.

[Melange_Thief]

I'm assuming he means a larger map; I don't know how feasible it would be, but I think it would only make sense to extend the map out to the Aral Sea. As for winter, they already have a winter system in EU3 that works pretty well (except when you're on the receiving end ).

As for me, I would like to see an extension of the timeline, both back into Alexander's time and forward, possibly even into the period of the fall or the Roman Empire. The Fall period would probably be more appropriate as a separate game, but if I remember correctly, Alexander had been even within the last century, so it wouldn't be too hard. If that wouldn't work, at least a start date the day or year after he died would be appropriate.

[Emperor Leo]

Nice input. people! I've updated the list.

If any dates are wrong or you feel I need to elaborate on certain features of the list, just let me know and I'll change them. Also, any ideas are up for discussion or dispute, so if you don't think any ideas are feasible or appropriate, let us know!

Remember, you don't just have to add brand new ideas, we're also looking for changes to the vanilla (Rome+VV) game that you feel need to be looked into.

[Carroarmato-P40]

Go east enough to at least include Baktria and the Parthian heartland. Separation of vassalage and tribute, they are very different things! Perhaps un-hard code units, so they can be more modifiable and give mods the ability to add or subtract troop types. Different types of sea units maybe. Greater detail placed on barbarian nations would be nice, more tribes in Gaul, Germania and Britannia would be nice also (with the addition of new provinces too).

[Emperor Leo]

By the way, I'll tidy and condense the list as it grows.

[Buladelu]

More space to east? Wouldn't it be unrealistic to let Rome (our central actor) to look that far?

And you wouldn't get christian time, you've been already told. And do you like to play Rome in 2-3 centuries when they owned all known world?

And Alexander... To hard to model.

[jmschaub]

Well you could get your ideas from the Total War expansion packs for Rome

They had Alexander & Barbarian Invasion expansion packs

[TheLoneGunman]

More space to east? Wouldn't it be unrealistic to let Rome (our central actor) to look that far?

And you wouldn't get christian time, you've been already told. And do you like to play Rome in 2-3 centuries when they owned all known world?

And Alexander... To hard to model.

I think the map should at least cover all of the Seleucid and Parthian lands at the very least.

As for the years where Rome was a might empire, it had it's fair share of civil wars, splitting of the empire, and political upheaval, but might not be right for the current engine to portray.

And I agree with Alexander being hard to model given the current game engine.

What would be needed is some massive changes to the engine itself to support some or all of these things if the plan was to do so.

I think that it would warrant 2 expansions, or a decision to go one way or the other though.

[Emperor Walter]

Make the current map as detailed as the map in CK. I don't understand how if the rome map is smaller than the CK, it is 4xless detailed. Also, expand the map east, add Diplo-annexation options, make religon less of a determining factor in Diplomacy (Religon was not a mjor factor until the dark ages anyway), and totally revise the trade system. If possible, it would be nice to have different troop options a la EUIII.

[TheLoneGunman]

Having more than one troop type, or allowing different technology "paths" for troops would be useful.

Of course, more modding support would be wonderful as well, especially the ability to freely change the Start/End dates without having to go rummaging through the exe.

[_C_]

Maybe a good tribe east of the selcuids like the bendounins. Aslo i think something like alexander's conquest and death would be in another game. Inculding rome's fall.(the saddest day in the world )

[Cheexsta]

This is very much a wishlist, I can only dream that Paradox might consider some of these ideas possible. I wouldn't be fussed if they didn't; I actually really like the game as it is, but there are just some areas that could use improvement.

Map
More detail is needed in some sections, and hopefully some of the provinces can be re-arranged to be more historic (Babylonia, Seleucia...). A slight extension to the East would be good, too; not Magna Terra-like, but more along the lines of what RIMP is aiming for in its next release (whenever that comes).

Also, the ability to change the borders of regions would be great. I hate conquering one province from a region and having to assign a governor specifically just for that province. And the ability to rename provinces and regions would be awesome

Timeline
The EU3 expansions tended to also add a few years onto the timeline, which made things different without being radical. I think a EUR expansion could do the same: add just a couple of decades to the start of the timeline and you've got quite a different political situation. The Diadochi Wars would be in full swing; Rome would only control 1-2 provinces and other Italic minors would have a chance at taking its glory, and so on.

Barbarians and Colonising
I've mentioned this in another thread a while back, but I think that barbarians and the colonisation system need some rethinking. Doomdark mentioned previously that this is something that would be good to improve upon in an expansion. I'd like to see a system where specific barbarian tribes inhabit a particular province, and you could have limited diplomatic interactions with them (such as trade, guarantees, war, etc). The tribes could at some point decide to migrate, forming a horde like they do currently. If they enter another barbarian province, they could either try to settle there (pushing out the current inhabitants), pass through without harm, or try to encourage the locals to follow them. Or, instead of migrating, they could decide to become a tribal confederation if they have a high enough civ level, becoming a proper country and being able to colonise etc.

Diplomacy
More diplomatic interactions would be fantastic. I like that Paradox added guarantees in one of the early patches (or was it VV?), but at the moment the AI rarely seems to act upon those. If a country has been guaranteed by another nation, they should be able to call the guarantor to arms as if it were an actual alliance. I'd like to be able to send warnings to countries as well, or demand that they withdraw from a war.

Setting up royal marriages should also be possible.

War
Peace deals need more detail. What I'd like to see:

1. Ability to force countries to release vassals. Currently, if the Seleucid Empire munches on Armenia and Iberia as they always seem to do, there's no way to get those countries back unless the provinces happen to revolt and are held by rebels for months. Doesn't happen very often.
2. Ability to force countries to cede provinces to allies (or even neutrals), even if they're not involved in the war. Historical example: Rome demanding a huge chunk of territory from the Seleucids for Pergamon and Rhodes after beating Antiochus III.
3. Ability to set an 'area of influence' for the loser (similar to HTTT's Spheres of Influence), whereby if the loser tries to do anything outside of its set area of influence then the victor will gain a CB against them. This would best be done on a regional level, rather than defining borders for a whole empire. Historical example: after the First Punic War, Carthage was restricted to land in Iberia south of the Ebro river (the river just north of Saguntum on the map).
4. Ability to set a limit on the loser's army and navy.
5. Ability to set up a pretender as the ruler.
6. Ability to take heir as a hostage for that country's goodwill. Historically, these kinds of hostages were actually treated very well (eg Antiochus IV).

That's enough for the moment. Most of my other wishes have already been mentioned

[JDMS]

As Cheexsta mentioned, I wouldn't mind moving the start date back just far enough to represent Rome's wars against the rest of Italy. It would be strangely satisfying to create a "Roman" empire with, say, Samnium.

[Warlord11030]

an ability to choose suitors for your ruler and children.

have the effect be a loyalty increase from the parents of the other child. or maybe even the entire family.

[Warlord11030]

Maybe a good tribe east of the selcuids like the bendounins. Aslo i think something like alexander's conquest and death would be in another game. Inculding rome's fall.(the saddest day in the world )

the seleucids seriously need at least one nation to compete against. it just sits there with a giant empire the entire game piling up man power, stability, gold and regions.

rome has carthage and carthage has egypt.

egypt sometimes wars the seleucids, yet almost always loses the war. i'd at least rather half of the seleucid empire be replaced since even the strongest powers can't compete with it.

[Cheexsta]

the seleucids seriously need at least one nation to compete against. it just sits there with a giant empire the entire game piling up man power, stability, gold and regions.

rome has carthage and carthage has egypt.

egypt sometimes wars the seleucids, yet almost always loses the war. i'd at least rather half of the seleucid empire be replaced since even the strongest powers can't compete with it.

Thing is, even with another competing empire to the east, the Seleucids still just sit there and steamroll over its neighbours. Try Magna Terra - the Mauryan Empire to the east is a huge threat as it was in history, but every time I've seen them go to war it just ends as a white peace.

Which reminds me: provinces are often worth way too much in peace deals. This results in Empire vs Empire wars often ending in white peace since they just don't have the warscore to take more than one or so province. Plus, the AI offers extremely odd deals on occaision. I'm sure we've all seen stubborn AI that offers white peace or even demands tribute after it loses its main army or has its only province besieged. And this isn't only a problem in EUR, EU3 seems to have it (to a lesser extend), too.