Impressions, Observations, Suggestions.

[Mooncabbage]

So in order to set the game back 100 years, you would have to mod every province file in the game to set it's ownership at the beginning of that time? And then go through and record changes to it's history? SO it's better to go back a relatively long way since you have to access every file regardless. Next problem: how do you deal with research levels etc? An extreme example, if I start the game in 300AD, by the time the game gets to 1300AD you can practically guarantee that as is, I've already got high level gunpowder infantry and cav.

I started the new game after installing 11.88 but it might be a dodgy install.

Interestingly after "ming" china was "qing" china, but they were each "empires". So Ming Empire, Qing Empire, but at the end of the day they were both China. I believe Manchu to the north of Ming at the start of the game is also suspect.

I don't think the refuse decision features are really REQUIRED, I find they clutter up the interface, but I can see their use.

I think if the government is centralised, reforms are going to be a lot easier to change (only one government body). Low decentralisation, as we discussed, is the kind sharing more power with his nobility. High centralisation means he literally rules the nobility, rather than them just owing their loyalty to him. It does, in my mind, make it a lot easier to make governmental reforms.

If you follow the logic that low stability means people desire a change of government, then you must consider that changing government types should result in a stability boost. However I don't really think stability needs to have any effect on government tech, except perhaps a generic tech penalty for low stab.

My question regarding investment and cost was simply that, the government tech PENALTY is an investment penalty, the BONUS is a cost bonus. It's assymetrical.

No thoughts regarding decision based missions?

Oh and how about for conscription, representing armies being quickly called up in times of war, you drastically reduce recruitment time and cost, at the expense of the quality of the army and war exhaustion. The big land army one could possible represent a permanent army, which would be smaller but higher quality, and more expensive to maintain (professional army with wages), but cost less in terms of warscore. You could even make the two ideas mutually exclusive, which would be good because often you take both. A historical example of this would be the early roman republican army, which was called up by the senate when required, vs the professional army after the marian reforms.

[17blue17]

Interestingly after "ming" china was "qing" china, but they were each "empires". So Ming Empire, Qing Empire, but at the end of the day they were both China. I believe Manchu to the north of Ming at the start of the game is also suspect.

Why is Manchu suspect? I understand the Manchu did exist north of Ming China and were separate from China. At game start they were tribes - maybe Jurchens - who eventually became what we call the Manchu.

The Manchu eventually invaded and conquered most of China. Then the Manchu ruler declared his dynasty to be the Qing Dynasty. Even after this the Ming kept fighting the Manchu Qing for a while in the south of china.

[Mooncabbage]

Ahh ok. My knowledge of chinese history isn't that great. I know that Qing came after Ming, and that Ming came out of the Yuan mongol china. Not real clear on anything else though :P
I always thought that the mongols were north of china though, hence the great wall. Perhaps this was an earlier period of history though.

After further research, it turns out that rather than being called Manchu it should probably be called the Northern Yuan Dynasty, which is essentially just the Yuan dynasty after it's expulsion form china in about 1368 or something. Manchu are a Tungusic/Mongolian culture, not a nation. Therefor I recommend renaming Manchu to Yuan. It's also worth noting that the "flag" of Manchu is actually the flag of the Qing Empire.

A good mission for Yuan might involve retaking lands in the Ming Empire. It might be interesting to see a unification option for China too.

Manchu emerged as a state (Domestically called "The State of Manchu") in 1616 and later formed the Qing Empire (c. 1644), although the rulers considered themselves members of the "Jin Dynasty" after the previous jurchen chinese dynasty. So it's probably worth adding a Manchu or Jin state to emerge later.

It might actually be an idea to add a number of states to china, as I have noticed that the whole area tends to lack nations that can emerge or be released, which seems somewhat unrealistic given china's history. I wouldn't mind seeing the sengoku states having the ability to emerge also, for a more organic Sengoku Jidai period.

Playing as Ming with a fresh install, where I'm not really having any problems with inflation. However because for some reason confucionaism gives you a MASSIVE -5 penalty to infamy, and a few other factors, like base infamy being -5 (wth?), my max infamy is actually like -14, so I'm pretty stuffed there. Far too many things reduce your infamy cap, not enough increase it.

Actually I just noticed negative max infamy results in infamy having no negative effects

[17blue17]

Ahh ok. My knowledge of chinese history isn't that great. I know that Qing came after Ming, and that Ming came out of the Yuan mongol china. Not real clear on anything else though :P
I always thought that the mongols were north of china though, hence the great wall. Perhaps this was an earlier period of history though.

You are correct about the great wall. The only part you missed was that both the mongols and manchu were north of the wall. In game the Mongols are represented by the Oirat Horde (North West), and the Mongol Khanate ( North Center). The Manchu are North East. I understand the Manchu may have been vassals / and or allies of the Mongols during early periods. In later periods the Ming used the Manchu as mercenaries against the Mongols. When all was said and done the Manchu conquered the Ming and then conquered the Mongol Khanate and exterminated almost all the Oirats.

[Darken]

So in order to set the game back 100 years, you would have to mod every province file in the game to set it's ownership at the beginning of that time? And then go through and record changes to it's history? SO it's better to go back a relatively long way since you have to access every file regardless. Next problem: how do you deal with research levels etc? An extreme example, if I start the game in 300AD, by the time the game gets to 1300AD you can practically guarantee that as is, I've already got high level gunpowder infantry and cav.

I started the new game after installing 11.88 but it might be a dodgy install.

Interestingly after "ming" china was "qing" china, but they were each "empires". So Ming Empire, Qing Empire, but at the end of the day they were both China. I believe Manchu to the north of Ming at the start of the game is also suspect.

I don't think the refuse decision features are really REQUIRED, I find they clutter up the interface, but I can see their use.

I think if the government is centralised, reforms are going to be a lot easier to change (only one government body). Low decentralisation, as we discussed, is the kind sharing more power with his nobility. High centralisation means he literally rules the nobility, rather than them just owing their loyalty to him. It does, in my mind, make it a lot easier to make governmental reforms.

If you follow the logic that low stability means people desire a change of government, then you must consider that changing government types should result in a stability boost. However I don't really think stability needs to have any effect on government tech, except perhaps a generic tech penalty for low stab.

My question regarding investment and cost was simply that, the government tech PENALTY is an investment penalty, the BONUS is a cost bonus. It's assymetrical.

No thoughts regarding decision based missions?

Oh and how about for conscription, representing armies being quickly called up in times of war, you drastically reduce recruitment time and cost, at the expense of the quality of the army and war exhaustion. The big land army one could possible represent a permanent army, which would be smaller but higher quality, and more expensive to maintain (professional army with wages), but cost less in terms of warscore. You could even make the two ideas mutually exclusive, which would be good because often you take both. A historical example of this would be the early roman republican army, which was called up by the senate when required, vs the professional army after the marian reforms.

I have reversed the government cost effects for centralized_decentralized, for 11.89.

oh, well, it looks to me like there is no investment effects in the policy sliders, so maybe this is again due to a bad install or messed up save game file due to the THE/THO change.

well, sure, the people might be glad that there is change in government but maybe it was a republic that was changed to a dictatorship, and thus the people are not going to be happy. so, I think it depends on the type of government change. either way, there is still the initial chaos during the government change to deal with.

hmmm, you mean like a player only decision, or gorup of them, that influences what kind of missiosn the player gets?

hmm, are you suggesting effect changes to the those army ideas then? if so, which changes?

[Mooncabbage]

Right so what I'm saying is, the Manchu were basically a combination of the earlier Yuan Mongols and the Jurchen Chinese "Jin" dynasty emperors, or atleast that was their claim. My understanding is that the Munchu Emperor or what have you, unified the various jurchen tribes, and formed the State of Manchu, encouraging the marrying of the descendants of the Yuan rulers for legitimacy. They went to war with the crumbling ming empire and in 1644, the last ming emperor commited suicide when they took his capital, and so they joined forces with a Ming general to become the new Emperor of China or what have you, and went about pacifying the rest of the Ming holdings, becoming Qing China.

I'm not sure how to represent that exactly in game, but I would suggest that Manchu, at game start, should infact be Yuan.

Also Korea is still noculture for me. Could "East Asian" culture group be renamed to chinese, since that's exactly what it is? Chihan should also be Han, I think more to save confusion than anything else as they are entirely refered to as Han Chinese in everything I have read so far (atleast I think that's what Chihan is). And if the East Asian/Chinese culture group could be recoloured to something less orange and more gold/yellow, that'd be great too. Also I think the Cantonese sub-group should be... Yue? Probably not the most accurate but certainly more accurate than Cantonese :P

hmmm, you mean like a player only decision, or gorup of them, that influences what kind of missiosn the player gets?

Hey I hadn't thought of that, I don't know if it's even possible. So if you do it the credit for the idea is all yours :P
I was thinking more along the lines of a "Mission" that never expires, because it is, in essence, a decision. It won't muck with the AI because it's not actually a mission, but human players can see it and work towards it. Your idea is good too though.

I would suggest changing "Grand Army" to a professional army idea of some sort "Professional Army" maybe... lower army limit, but more professional troops. Higher morale/discipline etc. Lower war exhaustion, or faster recovery, something like that. Military Tradition might get a bonus as well, to slow it's decay. Conscription becomes "Conscript Army" or... "National Service"... or best yet, "Citizen Army". Super fast recruitment times, low cost (Troops provide their own equipment), but high war exhaustion and low quality. I would suggest scrapping the current revolt risk penalty from the conscription idea entirely, as it's better conveyed by war exhaustion (if noone has ever had to fight a war, they care a lot less that they might be called up). The ideas should be mutually exclusive, but still a net benefit over no idea at all, since the lack of an idea represents no clear military system (they are busy focusing on national bank ideas or something :P).

Actually I just noticed that the Drill idea is almost perfect for the "Professional Army" idea, so use that instead. Even the icon looks better. Just make sure that conscription and professional army are mutually exclusive. Which means you can use Grand Army to do something else, because as it is it doesn't make a huge amount of sense as an idea.

Another Idea might be worth persuing if you want to replace another idea... The italian city states were known to use mercenary armies almost exclusively to fight their wars, so perhaps you could provide an idea that would allow cheaper mercenaries?

I noticed that Esprit de Corps, has been changed to Pride and Training. I would suggest that Training is covered by the Drill idea, so perhaps this should be called something else. Also Liberte, Egalate, Fraternite, which you have translated obviously, should still be capitalised at the start :P
I noticed that there is an idea called Improved Foraging, I think it would be much better to consider this idea to be Military Logistics, providing troops with food rather than pinching it as was normally the case. So you could ditch the diplomacy penalty. This makes a lot more sense as an idea, as later on in history proper provisioning for large armies became much more important, especially once ammunition became a concern.

[Darken]

Right so what I'm saying is, the Manchu were basically a combination of the earlier Yuan Mongols and the Jurchen Chinese "Jin" dynasty emperors, or atleast that was their claim. My understanding is that the Munchu Emperor or what have you, unified the various jurchen tribes, and formed the State of Manchu, encouraging the marrying of the descendants of the Yuan rulers for legitimacy. They went to war with the crumbling ming empire and in 1644, the last ming emperor commited suicide when they took his capital, and so they joined forces with a Ming general to become the new Emperor of China or what have you, and went about pacifying the rest of the Ming holdings, becoming Qing China.

I'm not sure how to represent that exactly in game, but I would suggest that Manchu, at game start, should infact be Yuan.

Also Korea is still noculture for me. Could "East Asian" culture group be renamed to chinese, since that's exactly what it is? Chihan should also be Han, I think more to save confusion than anything else as they are entirely refered to as Han Chinese in everything I have read so far (atleast I think that's what Chihan is). And if the East Asian/Chinese culture group could be recoloured to something less orange and more gold/yellow, that'd be great too. Also I think the Cantonese sub-group should be... Yue? Probably not the most accurate but certainly more accurate than Cantonese :P


Hey I hadn't thought of that, I don't know if it's even possible. So if you do it the credit for the idea is all yours :P
I was thinking more along the lines of a "Mission" that never expires, because it is, in essence, a decision. It won't muck with the AI because it's not actually a mission, but human players can see it and work towards it. Your idea is good too though.

I would suggest changing "Grand Army" to a professional army idea of some sort "Professional Army" maybe... lower army limit, but more professional troops. Higher morale/discipline etc. Lower war exhaustion, or faster recovery, something like that. Military Tradition might get a bonus as well, to slow it's decay. Conscription becomes "Conscript Army" or... "National Service"... or best yet, "Citizen Army". Super fast recruitment times, low cost (Troops provide their own equipment), but high war exhaustion and low quality. I would suggest scrapping the current revolt risk penalty from the conscription idea entirely, as it's better conveyed by war exhaustion (if noone has ever had to fight a war, they care a lot less that they might be called up). The ideas should be mutually exclusive, but still a net benefit over no idea at all, since the lack of an idea represents no clear military system (they are busy focusing on national bank ideas or something :P).

Another Idea might be worth persuing if you want to replace another idea... The italian city states were known to use mercenary armies almost exclusively to fight their wars, so perhaps you could provide an idea that would allow cheaper mercenaries?

I noticed that Esprit de Corps, has been changed to Pride and Training. I would suggest that Training is covered by the Drill idea, so perhaps this should be called something else. Also Liberte, Egalate, Fraternite, which you have translated obviously, should still be capitalised at the start :P
I noticed that there is an idea called Improved Foraging, I think it would be much better to consider this idea to be Military Logistics, providing troops with food rather than pinching it as was normally the case.

hmmm, i think you need to post a save game so i can try to fix it, otherwise you are just going to keep getting wierd errors.

I am not willing to add any Chinese nations for the Ming region unless it was a historical nation that tried to revolt during the time-frame and had a good chance of staying independant.

It is good to know that negative max reputation/infamy is not a problem. China gets reduced max reputation for many reasons, due to the world focus on them, thier closed society (later on), etc.

well, even a decision-mision would be hidden, because there is no interface to display chosen decisions, only modifier effects. so, it would probably have to have a modifier effect. Id rather just use the existing mission system for missions. Im not sure id want to allow the player to directly influence the type of missions they get, so i will think about it.

hmmm, I will think about your idea change suggestions.

there is already a decision to allow cheaper mercenaries, so, that might already be covered.

[Mooncabbage]

Well really I would have thought a very low infamy limit should be a problem? The point is once it goes below 0, it might as well not be there at all. I could take over the whole world with no problems.

There are a few nations you could add to Ming, and I definately think Manchu should be renamed Yuan. It's what it was called. Manchu came much later. The cultures thing would be good too.

Have you got a korean culture in your game? It's definately not there in mine and I completely reinstalled the mod from scratch, including saved games.

You could add the decision, just like now you can use decisions to form nations. Just set the mission requirements as requirements for the decision instead, then you click the decision and the mission is complete.

I am aware that there is a decision to allow cheaper mercenaries, I just wonder if it would be better as a fully fledged idea though. It was a historical way of organising/raising your armies.

I think the "Regimental System" Idea should be tweaked as well, as in my research I turned up china's Banners system, whereby the nation was divided into administrative regions that were required to provide a company of a certain number of men to an overall regional army called a Banner. There are a few other armies around the place that have used the same system. Perhaps for now you should simply change it to allow the chinese group to access the tech at Land 5 or something, similar to how Quest for the New World is done.

[17blue17]

Have you got a korean culture in your game? It's definately not there in mine and I completely reinstalled the mod from scratch, including saved games.

What version are you playing of TN? and what version of HTT? I have 11.88 of TN with 4.1b of HTT installed. I just loaded up a new game as Korea and Korean culture shows correctly in game.

Maybe if you started the game under a version earlier than HTT 4.1b then the cultures got goofed up due to the Paradox dynasty by culture coding changes in 4.1b?????

[Darken]

Well really I would have thought a very low infamy limit should be a problem? The point is once it goes below 0, it might as well not be there at all. I could take over the whole world with no problems.

There are a few nations you could add to Ming, and I definately think Manchu should be renamed Yuan. It's what it was called. Manchu came much later. The cultures thing would be good too.

Have you got a korean culture in your game? It's definately not there in mine and I completely reinstalled the mod from scratch, including saved games.

You could add the decision, just like now you can use decisions to form nations. Just set the mission requirements as requirements for the decision instead, then you click the decision and the mission is complete.

I am aware that there is a decision to allow cheaper mercenaries, I just wonder if it would be better as a fully fledged idea though. It was a historical way of organising/raising your armies.

I think the "Regimental System" Idea should be tweaked as well, as in my research I turned up china's Banners system, whereby the nation was divided into administrative regions that were required to provide a company of a certain number of men to an overall regional army called a Banner. There are a few other armies around the place that have used the same system. Perhaps for now you should simply change it to allow the chinese group to access the tech at Land 5 or something, similar to how Quest for the New World is done.

well, the problem with the Yuan situation is that I could probably literaly do this for many nations. Its basicly the same nation the whole time right? its just a different form of government or something right? the problem is that the more nations we add to the game, the more it is going to slow down the game. In a perfect, ideal mod, i would agree with you that we might need a new nation. if you are just saying we need to change it to Yuan, from Manchu, then that would be easier. I think the name should reflect the most recent nation name before Qin, so I am guessing that would be Manchu? If we name it Yuan, then, even during the Manchu timeframe it would still be called Yuan instead of Manchu. there is no other way to change the name other than making a new nation that Yuan/Manchu could change to/from. I am just not sure if that is worth it or not.

I dont see anything wrong with the Korea files, so there should not be any problem in the game.

yeah, that might work, about the decision/missions. I am just not sure if it is worth it or not. what kind of missions were you thinking about?

well, it would have to replace an existing idea if we did that, so I will think about that.

[Mooncabbage]

I dont know what version of HTTT i am running, I will have to check.

Not sure about missions. Usually nation forming missions are good ones, but there must be others. Conversion ones for example.

My advice would be to replace the Grand Army, Drill and Conscription ideas with Professional Army, Mercenary Army and Citizen Army ideas.

[Darken]

I dont know what version of HTTT i am running, I will have to check.

Not sure about missions. Usually nation forming missions are good ones, but there must be others. Conversion ones for example.

My advice would be to replace the Grand Army, Drill and Conscription ideas with Professional Army, Mercenary Army and Citizen Army ideas.

Thanks, I wil lthink about those thigns then.