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Avatar Federal, you're really starting to get close to the border line. PCP is based on Bismark's principals, one of which was to avoid getting entangled in colonial messes.

To act like the government betrayed Germany by setting up colonial self rule is an utter misrepresentation of reality. The Imperial Coalition, PCP part of it, was voted in. Therefore, it is partially a mandate on Bismark's policies. And since that coalition won, there shouldn't be an opposition to it.

It's a little late to be crying about it now. People should have done that during the elections, pointing out that that was a part of Bismark's policies, and what the PCP would likely do with colonial possessions. iirc, no one did that. It was only when the Goering issue came up that people got agitated.

Not to mention your points, such as abandonment of German settlers and surrender of lands, are being misrepresented in spite of repeated attempts to point this out to you.

There's no problem with opposition to the plans. The problem is when you're using dubious tactics that have little basis in reality. Please stop.

Ex: PCP betrayed Germany by 'surrendering' Africa ===> PCP is the party of Bismark, who sought to keep clear of the whole colonies. Part of the coalition that received the most votes. So apparently, people agreed.

That, or people need to actually read up on things.
 
Avatar Federal said:
"To my brothers in the NUP look at what this coalition is doing to German interests, unite with the defenders of German land and interests."

- Exactly how is Mittelafrika German land? We own it yes, but besides some German settlers, the vast majority of the population is African, and the entire area belonged to the Entente before the Weltkrieg. The area is not fundamentally German.

Delex said:
"I said popular support (AKA people) and not coalition support."

- There was an election, and the "coalition" (PCP/LCP/NUP/DNVP) recieved 60% of the votes cast. I'd call that popular supprt.

Delex said:
"The current government already rules the country as it was a dictature, on the end they could probably even end democracy fully, which is even so or so does not exist, since the elections were over."

- We could run it as a dictatorship, we have just chosen not to. We answer our critics/the opposition, and will continue to do so. After all, we do want to be reelected in 1938 <<OOC: and regardless of government type, TRP has said we will face elections in 1938>>.

Delex said:
"And i do understand the government for not wanting to share power, since who would want to do that anyway eh?"

- We pieced together a coalition, so, in one sense, we already do share power. That being said, we still will run the government as we have previously, with transparency and openness.

FlyingDutchie said:
"I am afraid your plan will simply do nothing more than delay descisions and give TRP more needless work. Thats why I cannot agree with your proposal, even if I agree we should find a way for the Reichstag to be more active."

- <<OOC again. This is exactly my issue with Delex's plan. It will slow the game down needlessly, and make more work for TRP (given all the other projects they have already on their plate...c'mon, give the guys a break)>>.

Delex said:
"Decisions are already delayed"

- Decisions need to be discussed in-camera within cabinet before they are presented. We want to make sure we all agree and the plan makes good sense, or are you against the government making good sense?

Delex said:
"not to mention that there is no democracy"

- 1936. Elections. Next elections in 1938. I think that's settled.

Delex said:
"they will still have to answer to the opposition"

- Isn't that what we're doing now, or am I mistaken?
 
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Avatar Federal, you're really starting to get close to the border line. PCP is based on Bismark's principals, one of which was to avoid getting entangled in colonial messes.

Ex: PCP betrayed Germany by 'surrendering' Africa ===> PCP is the party of Bismark, who sought to keep clear of the whole colonies. Part of the coalition that received the most votes. So apparently, people agreed.

That, or people need to actually read up on things.

I think people were heavily mislead by the PCP's message, many PCP member signatures include things like, "Kaiser, Prussia, Empire". We're not much of a empire if we're decolonizing.

I voted PCP and LCP last election, feeling that you were to be the best for strengthening Germany against Syndicalism. I was clearly wrong.

Delex, a PCP member, has also spoken of frustration with the PCP's decolonization. I, and many others are not alone in this belief.

There's no problem with opposition to the plans. The problem is when you're using dubious tactics that have little basis in reality. Please stop.

You call for giving of our land in China to the Qing, right?

You suggest giving some land in Afrika to the Union of South Africa, yes?

You do support the decolonization of Afrika, right?

How is me pointing out the reality of German Settlers in these areas a dubious tactic?

I have shown how these colonies provide us critical resources, and serve as key military installations as well.
 
Hm... is there a problem with just doing it anyways and ignoring the people who complain? I feel that we've heard their arguments, they can be summed up with "No..... EMPIRE!!!!" and we can reasonably dismiss them.

I have shown numerous times the benefits the colonies provide, namely resources.

Even under Goering's corrupt regime, we were given our monthly tribute in Mittelafrika.

The AOG doesn't even have a history of bad governance.

The colonies, give us access to markets allowing us to have a higher demand for German made products.

It's not simply, "Empire!", there are economic, military, and humanitarian reasons to continue our colonial rule.
 
I have shown numerous times the benefits the colonies provide, namely resources.

Even under Goering's corrupt regime, we were given our monthly tribute in Mittelafrika.

The AOG doesn't even have a history of bad governance.

The colonies, give us access to markets allowing us to have a higher demand for German made products.

It's not simply, "Empire!", there are economic, military, and humanitarian reasons to continue our colonial rule.

By your argument, a shop owner paying 100 Marks to operate his shop every day should keep his shop open if it brings in 50 Marks a day, because 'at least he's given his daily earnings'?

And the AOG...well, where to start. How about the burning down of their head office? It's obvious the Chinese don't want us there.
 
By your argument, a shop owner paying 100 Marks to operate his shop every day should keep his shop open if it brings in 50 Marks a day, because 'at least he's given his daily earnings'?

But Mittelafrika was a stable budget-neutral entity, Delex pointed that out earlier in the PCP group debate.

And the AOG...well, where to start. How about the burning down of their head office? It's obvious the Chinese don't want us there.

We can work on building public support, but only if we allow the AOG to remain. I mean, you're already working to employ a "Propaganda Minister", why not use him?
 
I'll bring up something new.

I know you're anti-Syndie, but the general consensus among the German Left (including the German Syndicalists) is that colonalism isn't bad, per se, but oppression must not be tolerated. The German Left would be perfectly fine if Germany ran a colonial empire, but it wants all people within those colonies to be granted German citizenship. If Germany cannot do that, then it should abandon its colonial empire.

Avatar Federal, do you agree that, if decolonization is stopped, that all those natives within the colonies be granted German citizenship?
 
I'll bring up something new.

I know you're anti-Syndie, but the general consensus among the German Left (including the German Syndicalists) is that colonalism isn't bad, per se, but oppression must not be tolerated. The German Left would be perfectly fine if Germany ran a colonial empire, but it wants all people within those colonies to be granted German citizenship. If Germany cannot do that, then it should abandon its colonial empire.

Avatar Federal, do you agree that, if decolonization is stopped, that all those natives within the colonies be granted German citizenship?

Definitely, as stated in the Deutsche Reichspartei Platform, anyone is open to become a German Citizen if they live in German territory, and make adequate attempts to learn the German Language.

Which is one of the reasons all Germans should vote for and join the DRP and work against Decolonization in the next election. We stand for a strong Germany, and humanitarian efforts.

Perhaps, the Left and Right could come together on this issue?
 
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I have shown numerous times the benefits the colonies provide, namely resources.

Even under Goering's corrupt regime, we were given our monthly tribute in Mittelafrika.

The AOG doesn't even have a history of bad governance.

The colonies, give us access to markets allowing us to have a higher demand for German made products.

It's not simply, "Empire!", there are economic, military, and humanitarian reasons to continue our colonial rule.

I suppose it would be up to TRP guys to decide, but I was under the impression that colonies are a huge drain of resources.

Still, my disagreement with you is an ideological one. Self-determination is a right and as the beacon of democracy and freedom Germany must respect and protect this right. So we must grant these people independence and then, if they want our help, offer them our help as equals.
 
Something that all this discussion of the Muller Plan has got me to to think about this question:

The Imperial Center wants self-rule, but how will this self-rule work? Is the Imperial Center going to organize local provicinal elections to allow the natives to decide, or is instead the Imperial Center wanting to empower local elites? Because if it is the latter, I'm not sure if I personally want to support a policy that would empower tinpot despots. We'll merely be exchanging one form of oppression for another...which doesn't really seem to be moral to me. I'm confused on this point, so I'll let the person in charge of decolonization answer.
 
mk11-

-You have no popular support on the decision to start decolonizing. People which do promote it are very rare and most of them are direct party representatives or ministers.

-O sure you have chosen not to do it. Thats why the socialists and the fascists have a say in the current setup right? Not to mention that ministers don't need their decisions discussed or voted on in order to be passed. Well you are totally democratic. So which country are you coming from Communist China?

-You share power? With whom lol? If you have a minister spot you can do anything you want on that filed, no matter what. The coalition partner cant stop you from doing it.

-There was no democracy since the elections ended.

-And yea I checked the cabinet, you guys sure discuss much heh:rofl:.

About mittleafrika: I don't know who had the idea that mittleafrika or any German COLONIAL COMPANY is a resource drain? Mittleafrika is an semi-independent state, which is self sustaining and gives us FREE resources. Thats why we established colonies in the first place. In case someone has forgotten, in order to support our economy, we need those reources (Goering's corrupt regime being there or not). So i want someone bring some really good arguments to counter this.
 
Delex said:
"You have no popular support on the decision to start decolonizing. People which do promote it are very rare and most of them are direct party representatives or ministers."

- I think we do, just that the opposition is more vocal about it than the supporters. For example, Avatar Federal.

Delex said:
"O sure you have chosen not to do it. Thats why the socialists and the fascists have a say in the current setup right?"

- We try to mold our proposals to benefit all, but our coalition is called in-part the "Central Coalition" for a reason. Persons on the radical ends of the political spectrum that advocate for Syndicalist revolution or to invade allies like Austria will have their proposals evaluated on their reasonability.

Delex said:
"Not to mention that ministers don't need their decisions discussed or voted on in order to be passed. Well you are totally democratic. So which country are you coming from Communist China?

- Myself, as defence minister, shouldn't have my decisions voted on by the Reichstag, as I come up with military strategies to implement cabinet decisions. Decisions which involve classified operations, because we aren't going to debate military orders where potential spies could to see them.

Delex said:
"You share power? With whom lol? If you have a minister spot you can do anything you want on that filed, no matter what. The coalition partner cant stop you from doing it."

- Just so you know, we all discuss what we're going to do within cabinet, and all coalition partners must agree to the proposal, and if they don't, we modify our plans to make them acceptable. Then, we post them in the thread and modify them further due to issues some in the Reichstag have with it. Again, sounds like democracy to me.

Delex said:
"There was no democracy since the elections ended."

- Really? I mean, are we not considering, modifying and discussing your proposal with you, amongst other things? Your proposal needlessly complicates an already slowly moving system. <<OOC: Don't get me wrong, I like direct democracy as a system, just that your proposal will slow things to a total crawl, and make this AAR untenable for a lot of people>>

Delex said:
"And yea I checked the cabinet, you guys sure discuss much heh."

- We have moved our discussions to a location that is more secure from spying eyes.

Delex said:
"About mittleafrika: I don't know who had the idea that mittleafrika or any German COLONIAL COMPANY is a resource drain?"

- If the member of the opposition would pay attention to the government's statements, you would know why.

I should note overall that it is much easier to tear down than it is to build up, and the opposition should remember that.
 
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The discussions against the decolonisation are vocal, yes, but we're seeing the same names pop up here time after time, making us believe the opposition on this matter is far from strong enough to oppose the government.

We need an estimate of what the average support is here. Therefore, we created the social group 'opposition to the Muller Plan'. If you are against the decolonisation, please join this group so we can gauge the strength of the opposition on this matter.

People pro-decolonisation are also welcome to start their own group 'Defenders of the Muller Plan'

Untill we have clarity on the matter, we will continue to take orders from the cabinet and hence, the Muller plan proceeds as ordered (but since it's a longterm plan there will be no liberations yet)

Also, we don't recall mentioning Mittelafrika was a resource drain, the only thing we said about it was Goering's tyrannical rule over the colonial federation.


------​

On another note, Koven09 came up with an interesting idea

We should get a rouge politican put down to bring down 3 dissent. This will encourage debates among people and will result in spam prevention. Including the players name in there will be even better! Here is how it should be set up

Rouge Politican }- title

Mister A rises up and starts complaining about Insert event here while mister B comes up and defends the policy }- Event

Good luck mister B! }- Response
No emidiate effect
----------------------------------

Mister B wins }-title

Mister B manages to pull of a win and dissent is lowered! }-event


Hurray}- Resonse
-3 Dissent
---------------------------------------------
Mister A wins }-title

Mister A manages to prove his point and dissent is Raised! }-event


Oh No!}- Resonse
+3 Dissent

----------------------------------------------


Results should stem off as well so the person who is correct will gain what he needs but this time i will use real names

Kovan09 debates with AvatarFedral }- the title of the event
Kovan09 and AvatarFedral recently had a debate about The invasion of austria and the junck plan

Kovan09 wins
+ 100 with austria
- 100 with ottomans
+ 1 interventionism

AvatarFedral wins
- 100 with austria
+ 100 with ottomans
+ 1 interventionism

This will tie your internal Reichstag discussions into the game. What do you guys think of this?
 
Wow guys, these discussions about (de)-colonization go very far. What I would like to know before I can make a decision is the following from TRP or Stormbringer(as he is the minister of economics):

Is MittelAfrika self-sufficient. I know that before 1938 you will not probably liberate anything overthere but still...second question is the AOG self-sufficient.
With self-sufficient I mean: is there enough to keep their own economy running, and can they contribute say at least 5.0 resources every month to Germany's economy.

From there on, we could make a more clearer discussion. This would result probably in the question: are these territories strategic to Germany's hegemony or are these territories worthless and would it be better if we gave them to a friendly country?

On the Ottoman Empire/ Austria-Hungary question. We invade neither, we help the cured man of Europe/Asia -> Ottoman Empire in this case and let them help us crush the Syndicalists in the Middle East.

One more question, what is the current status on the Netherlands and/or other countries where intervention will take place?

@Stormbringer: I've read quickly through your analysis and it is good, very good, I understand most of it, thanks to my Macroeconomics study, and I like the idea about the Eastern European Countries, it is sort of becoming a real economic bloc right now...sort of European Economic and Military Community/Union...

Tim
 
I wish to add one last remark on the ongoing discussion on decolonisation.

Mittelafrika is no colonial company. According to the kaiserreich wikia it is an admisistrative construction, akin to British India, formed by Wilhelm Solf and Von Lettow-Vorbeck to keep the German African colonies governable after aquiring the Belgian Congo and the British African colonies. Please do not present it as such.
Further, not a single African colony besides Leopoldite Congo ever made a profit, not even rich colonies as the Cape or Rhodesia. There is no reason to think that colonies in the Kaiserreich era are any different. All resources we need we can import (cheaper) from nations as Ukraine.
 
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For sake of the discussion, we'll state that Mittelafrika is currently self-sufficient. The AOG, on the other hand, is plagued with Chinese strikes and protests and probably running on it's last legs.

On the Netherlands, there will be info in the game update posted tonight. The government hasn't given a direct order to invade yet so we just placed sufficient troops near the border in case of military intervention. Indonesia will also be treated in the game update.

But, I have to get back to the studies. You'll see me pop in again around 20:00 GMT with the update

-Vincent
 
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