+ Reply to Thread
Page 14 of 14 FirstFirst ... 4 12 13 14
Results 261 to 268 of 268

Thread: Heir to the Throne - New Countries

  1. #261
    Now now, don't be silly. Language had very little to do with it. It was broader than that. The main reason was Willem's politic to try and blend the best of The Netherlands and the best of Belgium together. For instance he tried to make an economic system based on Belgium's industry and Holland's trade and colonies. Problem was that most of the profits went to projects in The Netherlands. Also liberals soon found a common dismay with the catholics and they united against the Protestant hegemony for fear of getting marginalized. Funny thing is that at first the Dutch catholics supported the cause, because they too saw the opportunity. And ofcourse, they didn't divide everything as equally as the Belgians would like, politcally speaking and Willem was too powerful, while the Belgians had asked for a more ceremonial King. About the language, yes, he did create laws to have the language unified in 1817, but they only started to implement them in 1827-1828, by then the first groups of rebellion were already forming and the liberal press was already proposing a division between The Netherlands and Belgium. I think Les Etats Unis de Belgiques are the best proof that there was a national feeling before 1830. Anyway, the Flemish 'nation' is even a younger creation
    I Concurr.
    ZappyVlaams arguments are somewhat teinted with current nationalism rather than historical insight.
    First of all: languages. They are almost not taken into account in EU3 culture system.
    And it's also wrong to say "evil french speakers created belgium":
    - There were much flemish in both revolutions (1789-90 and 1830);
    - Both time, the issues were not language (States rights and then economical, political and religious issues).
    - Nobody, save a few elite in both part of Belgium spoke French (mainly Picard languages).

    Facts are stubborns, and past errors and tragedies (the centralization of early Belgium and the elites' disdain for flemish and picards languages as well) IMHO do not mean there is no such thing as Belgian idendity.
    Even more: you can stick with these, I don't mind, but it happened far outside EU3 timeframe and do not mean there was no belgian idendity in these times.
    No serious historian can negate the existence of a proto-belgian idendity with its roots in catholicisme, the attachment to local rights, charters and such and the fidelity to the ruling dynasty as long as the said rights are respected. Think what you want about post-1830 belgium, I'm advocating for the implementation of a pre-1830, Belgian-States United federation like one. Like it did happen. And I'm sure you won't negate the flemishness of Antwerp or Turnhout patriots of 1790 (or 1830 ) nor the Wallonianness of Namur's ones.
    So, only Flanders or Brabant won't suffice to represent a Belgian State. We need a union tag or at least a country tag.
    Come on! Germany and Romania have it...
    It is true that I tend to overlook many of the other reasons, but I do think language shouldn't be neglected here. The French elite (and yes, those lived in Flanders as well, I know) has always thought of Dutch as a lesser language, even today they're still refusing to learn it because it's not the language of Voltaire (and mind you: I don't blame them. No one should be forced to learn a different language, but please, don't split up the country and make other people learn your language). It most certainly did play a part in it.

    In history class, we learnt that the separation of Belgium from the Netherlands was an irrational decision that yielded no greater benefits for Belgium. Yes, there was some cultural friction and all the other things OscarWilde mentions, but that could have been fixed in a different way. Especially the Flemish people (and by that I mean the peasants, not the French speaking elite) was better off in an union with the Netherlands.

    The revolt against Austria is quite a different situation from the revolt against Belgium (I actually live in Turnhout, btw), as the 'oppressing' nation was a far away, foreign country and not a neighboring country with which a great deal of the nation had cultural ties. I see no need to introduce a new country just for this very specific revolt, that's why I think Brabant, Hainaut or Flanders call fill in as 'Belgian revolutionary state'. The main reason I don't want Belgium to be in the game, is just because it makes no sense at all. Even if there is a Belgian nationalistic feeling, it's only because we were separated since 1585 from the rest of the Netherlands and conquered by other nations every since (what a base for a nationalistic feeling: common oppression! Too bad the oppression didn't end with Belgium for Flanders). Starting in 1399 with Brabant and then forming Belgium rather than the Netherlands makes no sense at all, only in a very specific situation would a country like Belgium be desired and even then, I think Hainaut conquering Vlaanderen, Antwerpen, Brabant and Limburg would give a more realistic situation than a new Belgian state with Flemish and Walloon as accepted cultures.

    I'm actually not a Flemish nationalist, though I am in favor of reuniting Flanders and the Netherlands, if it's not a simple annexation.

  2. #262
    L'Empire, c'est la paix! Emp_Palpatine's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIDarkest HourEU3 CompleteDivine WindHeir to the Throne
    Rome GoldVictoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of Darkness

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Du côté obscur!
    Posts
    2,932
    Quote Originally Posted by ZappyVlaams View Post
    It is true that I tend to overlook many of the other reasons, but I do think language shouldn't be neglected here. The French elite (and yes, those lived in Flanders as well, I know) has always thought of Dutch as a lesser language, even today they're still refusing to learn it because it's not the language of Voltaire (and mind you: I don't blame them. No one should be forced to learn a different language, but please, don't split up the country and make other people learn your language). It most certainly did play a part in it.
    And these people are dumb nowadays. When 60% of the country speak dutch, it's a matter of politeness to learn it, at least some basis.
    The same, I strongly despise french policy in the 19th that destroyed much local languages, including the flemish I should be speaking without this policy.


    The revolt against Austria is quite a different situation from the revolt against Belgium (I actually live in Turnhout, btw), as the 'oppressing' nation was a far away, foreign country and not a neighboring country with which a great deal of the nation had cultural ties.
    Note that Belgian revolution of 1789 was not directed as a foreign domination per se as it was not perceived like that. It was more a personnal union, with a dynastic fidelity and so on, with the respect of old constitutions and charters. And that's when Joseph II tried to rule directly and imposing his rationnalization and centralization that things erupted. "Belgian" did governed themselves, not Spanish or Austrian except from some Governors.

    Even if there is a Belgian nationalistic feeling, it's only because we were separated since 1585 from the rest of the Netherlands and conquered by other nations every since (what a base for a nationalistic feeling: common oppression! Too bad the oppression didn't end with Belgium for Flanders). Starting in 1399 with Brabant and then forming Belgium rather than the Netherlands makes no sense at all, only in a very specific situation would a country like Belgium be desired and even then, I think Hainaut conquering Vlaanderen, Antwerpen, Brabant and Limburg would give a more realistic situation than a new Belgian state with Flemish and Walloon as accepted cultures.

    I'm actually not a Flemish nationalist, though I am in favor of reuniting Flanders and the Netherlands, if it's not a simple annexation.
    Indeed, my proposed belgian states is more difficult if there is no Netherlands or if Netherlands share the same religion as southern low countries (up to Artois, indeed).
    So, starting in 1399, few chances to have it. But if I start my game, say, in 1700... We have all the triggers: Different religions and so on. I would love to be able, as a French player for instance, to send some spy incitating a belgian revolution.
    Given the existence of a "Belgian"/southern low countries feeling in those days, from Artois to Antwerp, I think it's a shame not to have a union tag or at least a country tag, encompassing all the Union of Arras provinces as cores and both cultures rather than using the old particularist states. I also think it's a shame Netherlands do not owns cores down to Artois and can't be formed from southern provinces.
    Even in France, up until the big shocks of 1792 sieges and wars, much people in the recently annexed Artois and Flanders argued for their "belgianness"/low countries-ness. There were songs, pamphlets denouncing French annexation.


    The biggest issue IMHO are indeed the triggers: what if Northern and Southern Netherlands do not suffer such a separation like the Union of Arras?

    And what bothers me is: we have Romania and Germany, i.e. What-if states in EU3.
    United Belgian States did existed and are not in...
    And I repeat: I do not ask for a post-1830 somewhat centralized Belgium as a nation state, but a belgian conferacy uniting the provinces.


    btw, I'd like to see the whole seventeen provinces united again, including Artois and French Flanders, hence my affection toward belgium (apart from family ties): Low Countries-ness isn't IMHO only a dutch-speaking people thing. I, as a french from French Flanders share far much with any dutch speaking belgian or french-speaking belgian than people in Paris or Marseilles.
    "Votre Hugo est fou avec son "Napoléon le petit". Napoléon le petit, c'est celui de la Colonne."
    Victor Cousin

    Petite balade dans le Dixie Land: Hurrah for the Bonnie blue flag that bears the Single StAAR!
    C'est reparti comme en 14: la VictoAAR en chantant!


  3. #263
    Colonel The_Pursuader's Avatar
    EU3 Collectors Edition500k clubEuropa Universalis IV

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    ___________________ in a bar under the sea
    Posts
    926
    The link you gave me is very interesting I didn't know the term Belgium existed prior to 1830. I agree that a decision to form Belgium would be appropriate as other countries have it although they formed even later (Germany, Italy, Romania).

    Anyway I just posted my mod "HttT Independent Nations" in which it's possible to form Wallonia and Belgium (and other nations ofc). Flanders is a trade league. The primary culture of Brabant is now flemish and their capital is Brussel
    Feel free to check it out http://www.europa-universalis.com/fo...d.php?t=456687
    Bessie Braddock: “Sir, you are drunk.”
    Churchill: “Madam, you are ugly. In the morning, I shall be sober.”

    HttT Independent Nations 2.2 mod for HttT 4.0 & 4.1beta
    WWM Independent Nations mod for IN 3.2

  4. #264
    L'Empire, c'est la paix! Emp_Palpatine's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIDarkest HourEU3 CompleteDivine WindHeir to the Throne
    Rome GoldVictoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of Darkness

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Du côté obscur!
    Posts
    2,932
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Pursuader View Post
    The link you gave me is very interesting I didn't know the term Belgium existed prior to 1830. I agree that a decision to form Belgium would be appropriate as other countries have it although they formed even later (Germany, Italy, Romania).
    Isn't it?
    A decision or a revolter...
    In P'dox hands now, but they stay silent.

    Anyway I just posted my mod "HttT Independent Nations" in which it's possible to form Wallonia and Belgium (and other nations ofc). Flanders is a trade league. The primary culture of Brabant is now flemish and their capital is Brussel
    Feel free to check it out http://www.europa-universalis.com/fo...d.php?t=456687
    Regarding your mod:
    Wallonia is an artificial construction (contrary to Flanders) dating from the late 19th, early 20th. I forgot who forged the name, by the way.
    So having it in a EU3 is somewhat questionnable. The same, actually, for "wallonian" culture, even if it's a stand in for french-"roman" language southern low countries
    Hainaut, Liege and others are IMHO enough to represent these areas. And a Belgian state (that would include Flanders in his Cores at least) if you want absolutely to have a unified country.
    "Votre Hugo est fou avec son "Napoléon le petit". Napoléon le petit, c'est celui de la Colonne."
    Victor Cousin

    Petite balade dans le Dixie Land: Hurrah for the Bonnie blue flag that bears the Single StAAR!
    C'est reparti comme en 14: la VictoAAR en chantant!


  5. #265
    Well actually, the term Walloons or Wallonian was also in use in the Early Modern Period. For instance, in England there are a number of Wallonian churches where Protestant Wallonians went to, fearing opression from the catholic state. I don't know about Wallony as such. And the Flanders we know is ofcourse also a 19th century construction.

  6. #266
    First Lieutenant
    Crusader Kings IIEast India Company CollectionEU3 CompleteDivine WindHearts of Iron III
    Heir to the ThroneRome GoldVictoria 2Victoria II: A House Divided

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Bruxelles, Belgium
    Posts
    210
    I could create Jerusalem in one game, but it is not interesting at all... You are not thanked to create it, you don't have any positive result by doing that...

  7. #267
    Byzantophile Daimyō DarthJF's Avatar
    200k clubHoI AnthologyCrusader Kings IIDarkest HourDeus Vult
    EU3 CompleteFor The GloryFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest Hour
    Heir to the ThroneVictoria: RevolutionsEuropa Universalis: RomeSemper FiSengoku
    Victoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of DarknessRome: Vae VictisCK2: Holy Knight
    EU3 Collectors Edition500k clubEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-orderEUIV: Conquest of Paradise

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Finnia
    Posts
    3,114
    Quote Originally Posted by shanalya View Post
    I could create Jerusalem in one game, but it is not interesting at all... You are not thanked to create it, you don't have any positive result by doing that...
    Ability to switch and play as Jerusalem to create Christian empire in the Middle-East is the reward.
    "It is because people's minds are not logical and enlightened that the Empire is in disorder. If the country is not properly ruled there will be no end to rebellions. And if anyone wishes to get the knowledge of how to rule it properly he will only find it in books. That is why the publication of books is the beginning of beneficient rule."

    - Tokugawa Ieyasu

  8. #268
    Post-Punk Barsoom's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIDeus VultEU3 CompleteHeir to the ThroneVictoria: Revolutions
    Rome GoldWarlock: Master of the ArcaneCK2: Holy Knight500k clubEuropa Universalis IV

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Possibly orbiting Pluto
    Posts
    453
    Quote Originally Posted by OscarWilde View Post
    Well actually, the term Walloons or Wallonian was also in use in the Early Modern Period. For instance, in England there are a number of Wallonian churches where Protestant Wallonians went to, fearing opression from the catholic state. I don't know about Wallony as such. And the Flanders we know is ofcourse also a 19th century construction.
    Yes, Flanders is often applied to all Dutch-speaking areas in Belgium, while only the western parts belonged to the medieval county. Walloon (Wals, Waals) is an old word used historically by Dutch speakers to refer to romance speakers. (Incidentally, it is the same word root that the English used to give a name to the Welsh.) Walloon churches actually refers to churches formed mainly by Huguenot refugees from France proper. At some point the meaning narrowed to designate only French speakers in the Netherlands / Belgium but I'm not entirely clear on when or how.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 14 of 14 FirstFirst ... 4 12 13 14

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts