Dev Diary 4 - The Economic System and why it may seem a little similar
- Thread starter King
- Start date
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
So, in a time when armies could still by fed through scavenging (but had to be supplied powder and lead for the guns), it seems a bit odd to have economic problems due to a lack of fish to feed the world. So I vote to make adjustments to the economic system. Keep the concert just for the fun of it. While I liked the old RGO system with grain, fish, and so on, it seems it would be better to have some sort of intrinsic food value for each province, in addition to the main RGO item. Some provinces would have more food value than the pops can eat, so the surplus would be placed on the market. Others would have a lack, and so have to draw from the market. This might simplify things a bit. Maybe. I don't know how much recoding would be involved for you. Probably more than you want to get into, since it would mean two values in every province - food plus the trade RGO.
My other point, purely an opinion value, is a totally unnecessary remark to those complaining about graphical issues. I would rather you all discuss game play issues instead. I like that the game will still be pretty as regards the map and the sprites, but the details really don't matter when you're hip-deep in trying to determine why your economy is tanking or your populace is unhappy. I really don't think it matters whether we have tin soldiers or a firing line representing our armies, but as I said, it's an opinion on my part.
and both of them would probably fit in the province called "chester"
Oh god... tin soldiers.
Ok, so no illusion-of-mass formation sprites. Please at least let it be quite straight forward to change the the colorings... I liked the Prussian soldiers, they looked great, but rather not have the Austrians.
And just to keep my post on subject, again, please no infinite world market, rather a (perhaps dynamic) group of smaller finite markets. This could also be used to drive motive to colonize and to make war... New Markets, Capitalists of industrial power house SCREAM for NEW MARKETS!
Well, then you'll require the game engine to be calcualting resource values for each market that you create, and have to take into account the impact of trade between different market zones to reflect goods going from one region to another. That would be a LOT of additional number crunching and raise the perspective of some very odd behavior in game (why buy fish locally if you can buy fish more cheaply in another economic zone?)
And then there is the issue of colonization - does a region formerly independent (say Vietnam) stay in a Southeast Asia market zone if it should become a French (or other power's) colony, or does it become part of the same market zone as France, and should that be considered part of a broader economic zone with the rest of Europe or will there be "imperial" economic zones of the form that became all the rage starting in the 1890s and reaching full maturity during the heyday of Imperial Preference during the Great Depression.
I understand the idea behind your suggestion, but sometimes too much "historical realism" can create all sorts of problems for gameplay, both in terms of what the average home computer can be expected to do at reasonable speeds for players, and in terms of the game not being too overly complicated. For all the limitations that the global market model had in V1, I think its a fair representation of the nature of global trade as it evolved during the course of the 19th century that also balances the issues of gaming resources to play the game and degree of intuitiveness in how to play the game.
Please, for the love of god, maintain the economic system all you want, just scrap the world market idea (as a single global market)!
Yes, that's what I want, and I'm sure there's a way to make Clausewitz do it too. I'm not ready to beleive Paradox aren't capable of making this happen if they put their coders minds to it.
That sounds really nifty and realistic. Most uncivilized countries would be just about able to feed their population and not able to export much as they lack a centralized economy. That would nicely model the shift away from subsistence agriculture. On the other hand, it would make things like the Irish Famine harder to model as you wouldn't have the means to ship away foodstuff that are needed in a province to feed your capital or make big bucks elsewhere. A slider for that kind of thing would probably be overkill.
It really wouldn't add anythng to gameplay to have regional markets, unless I'm missing something...
Nice DD not as informative as it could be, but who wants all their Christmas presents on the 2. Dec.
I doubt it is completely random, a screen shot of the middle of the pacific ocean that would be random.
I noticed that the upper-Walisien province is called "Holyhead" or something. LOL
Its nice with the funny names for provinces like "Medicine Hat" on Canada's US border, in VIC 1.
I doubt it is completely random, a screen shot of the middle of the pacific ocean that would be random.
I noticed that the upper-Walisien province is called "Holyhead" or something. LOL
Its nice with the funny names for provinces like "Medicine Hat" on Canada's US border, in VIC 1.
totally agree here.
as for the offer problem commented in the DD. if you make productivity of RGOs variable (as i understand that human resources are a more fixed variable) depending on demand you can just set the starting point, leave it run for some time and stop at the point you like the market situation/prices/supply level. if it's not too random it might help you set production logically and you can be sure that you don't set an unstable starting economic situation as it balance itself. just a thought. i used this back when i played with designing of economic models and it was very useful. and trust me, if the maths behind are not crazy it always get balanced.
anyhow. take your time with this. again, no rush.
Since China didn't have a single fish RGO in the original Vicky I'm not surprised there was a global shortage.
The fact that there's still only one global market doesn't bother me, as long as it's possible to exclude nations from the market with blockades.
The fact that there's still only one global market doesn't bother me, as long as it's possible to exclude nations from the market with blockades.
Besides being highly irrealistic (Saharan peasants importing grain from Korea). I didn't say anything about Regional Markets. I'm referring to National Inner Markets, and the lack of these would render ideas like embargoes or colonies or the difference of prices of goods in an area with little internal demand (For instance Steel, not being very needed in a uncivilized country) to an area with a much larger demand (Industrialized countries), making these much less important and/or moot, thus affecting gameplay.
Aesthetically, this doesn't make much sense in a game that's focused on the Victorian era. Frames, as in the first Victoria, or some other form of rectangular border, make much more sense. Besides, in this system flags with off-center features look "off," for lack of a better term, and squishing a 3x5 flag to fit in a circle can lead to some strange distortion.
Plus, if there's going to be a flag-changing feature, don't you want the players to be able to appreciate the work you put into them?
I didn't particularly like the way the RGO system worked. The ability to expand just how much you like doesn't give much sense. Unemployment was a big issue, as was starvation. Even if the money is supposed to represent new technology, I believe it's way too abstracted.
Fertilizers, both guano and later artificial, helped increase food output. Technology helped expand mines and stuff like that. Railroads, canals and ports decided how much of what you produced could be shipped away from the place of production.
What I want is RGOs that says how much you can produce each day/month/whatever and how much each farmer/worker can produce. Say each farmercan produce ten units of grain and you have 500 workers working in that RGO. The maximum production value of grain in that RGO is 3000. That means that each worker only produce 6 units each. Now, this doesn't mean that those farmers can't live of what they produce, it just means that you pretty much have 200 people doing you no good.
Now, introduce guano. It doubles the effectiveness of the farmers, and how much the RGO produce. Suddenly, you have 500 farmers producing 12 units of grain each. Once again, you get farmers who are capable of surviving on what they produce, but you still have 200 farmers doing squat. Bring in population growth, and before you know it, the farmers are living below the line of poverty, leading to emigration.
Now, what I have at length tried to explain here is that not all technological break-troughs meant that more jobs became available. Some break-troughs should expand the maximum output, some the effectiveness of the workers and some both. The ability to plough by machine didn't mean more jobs became available, it meant that less people were able to do the same job. Guano increased the output that each square mile got. And I suppose irrigation-systems actually made hitherto infertile land fertile, thus actually increasing the number of jobs available.
So, what I want to see is that over-all during the industrialization, more and more stuff being produced or extracted by less and less people. opening up for peopleto get jobs at factories, become soldiers, etc, without decline in the food and resource production. If you guys can represent this better then you did in Victoria I, that in itself would be enough to sell the game to me.
Also, I'd like to see food beind produced in almost every province, in addition to another RGO. Just because some regions didn't export much food, doesn't mean they weren't able to produce all or most of the food they consumed. Forcing those regions to import all the food they consume is ahistorical.
Fertilizers, both guano and later artificial, helped increase food output. Technology helped expand mines and stuff like that. Railroads, canals and ports decided how much of what you produced could be shipped away from the place of production.
What I want is RGOs that says how much you can produce each day/month/whatever and how much each farmer/worker can produce. Say each farmercan produce ten units of grain and you have 500 workers working in that RGO. The maximum production value of grain in that RGO is 3000. That means that each worker only produce 6 units each. Now, this doesn't mean that those farmers can't live of what they produce, it just means that you pretty much have 200 people doing you no good.
Now, introduce guano. It doubles the effectiveness of the farmers, and how much the RGO produce. Suddenly, you have 500 farmers producing 12 units of grain each. Once again, you get farmers who are capable of surviving on what they produce, but you still have 200 farmers doing squat. Bring in population growth, and before you know it, the farmers are living below the line of poverty, leading to emigration.
Now, what I have at length tried to explain here is that not all technological break-troughs meant that more jobs became available. Some break-troughs should expand the maximum output, some the effectiveness of the workers and some both. The ability to plough by machine didn't mean more jobs became available, it meant that less people were able to do the same job. Guano increased the output that each square mile got. And I suppose irrigation-systems actually made hitherto infertile land fertile, thus actually increasing the number of jobs available.
So, what I want to see is that over-all during the industrialization, more and more stuff being produced or extracted by less and less people. opening up for peopleto get jobs at factories, become soldiers, etc, without decline in the food and resource production. If you guys can represent this better then you did in Victoria I, that in itself would be enough to sell the game to me.
Also, I'd like to see food beind produced in almost every province, in addition to another RGO. Just because some regions didn't export much food, doesn't mean they weren't able to produce all or most of the food they consumed. Forcing those regions to import all the food they consume is ahistorical.
