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Thread: HOI 3 v1.3 HQ AI Assessment

  1. #41
    Super! Subscribed. Thanks.

  2. #42
    I've found that attaching air to the theater HQ gets the best out of it.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Invader_Canuck View Post
    I've found that attaching air to the theater HQ gets the best out of it.
    Strange. Can you remember if that was in all circumstances - Attacking and Defensive? When i tried it as GER in the attack on POL, they hardly flew.

  4. #44
    Attaching air to units higher than the highest active AI makes no sense as it wouldn't fly at all.

  5. #45
    Second Lieutenant Rush's Avatar
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  6. #46

    Questions

    Given your experience, do you still create Army Group HQ's? If the airforce and orders are at the army level, what use are the Army Group HQ's? Or Theater ones too for that matter?

  7. #47
    Given your experience, do you still create Army Group HQ's? If the airforce and orders are at the army level, what use are the Army Group HQ's? Or Theater ones too for that matter?
    Good question. I understand that the Leadership bonuses grom Army Group and Theater Leaders are passed down (though much reduced in effect) to each subordinate unit. I am unsure just how useful these bonuses are in reality, or if there are any other benefits. can anyone help on this?

    All - the AAR resumes tomorrow (hopefully). Watch this space.

  8. #48
    From the HOI3 Wiki

    Summary of HQ commander benefits

    A Division Commander uses both his skill and his traits to improve his Division's combat efficiency.

    A Corps Commander uses his skill (at full effect) to improve the efficiency of the rotation of damaged units out of battle, replacing them with reserves; and passes HALF of his Trait bonus down to his subordinate Divisions.

    An Army Commander uses his skill (at full effect) to improve the Organization of all units under his command; and passes ONE-QUARTER of his Trait bonus down to his subordinate Divisions.

    An Army Group Commander uses his skill (at full effect) to reduce the Supply Consumption of all units under his command; and passes ONE-EIGTH of his Trait bonus down to his subordinate Divisions.

    A Theatre Commander uses his skill (at full effect) to reduce the Unit Cooperation (stacking) penalty for all units under his command, and passes ONE-SIXTEENTH of his Trait bonus down to his subordinate Divisions.

    This assumes that the subordinate units are IN COMMAND RANGE of the HQ.

    [source is Blue Emu's frequent postings about this on the forum: See also manual pg 71.]


    An Army Group HQ with the logistics trait could be quite useful, I think.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirth Gersen View Post
    Good question. I understand that the Leadership bonuses grom Army Group and Theater Leaders are passed down (though much reduced in effect) to each subordinate unit. I am unsure just how useful these bonuses are in reality, or if there are any other benefits. can anyone help on this?

    All - the AAR resumes tomorrow (hopefully). Watch this space.
    The manual says that army group leader's leadership reduces the supply and fuel consumption of all units under his command, the army leader increases the organization and corps leader increases the chance that reinforcements enter the battle. In addition to the normal leader skill and trait bonuses, that is. However I never have tried to see if being attached to a different level of hierarchy makes any difference for air and naval units but it should be easy to find out just by looking at the max org of these units after they are attached to an army with a good general in command.

    Also only air leaders can have traits that affect air combat and only admirals have traits that affect sea combat so there's no way to get "super bonuses" out of them like you can do with panzer leaders. If the army and army group leaders help out air and naval units anyway then it could be a good idea to have your navies and planes in an army and army group commanded by a logistics wizards to get that 6.25%+3.125% reduction in supply and fuel use.

    EDIT: Emu'd

  10. #50
    3 Steps Back... 3 Steps Forward

    Its been very frustrating. To a point where despite hours of play, I am only where I was last time I reported.

    I wanted to try out a SeeLowe. But, without planning for one in the previous campaign, I decided to a) start again, and b) learn something of the other tabs.

    Without going into the blow by blow of my pain, in summary:
    1. I tried the 1938 campaign first. Very hard. By the time I got to the Polish campaign, I knew I didn't have enough in terms of raw numbers to finish the job.
    2. I tried the 1936 campaign twice. The first time, everybody allied with everyone, and WW2 kicked off far too early. Not good for me to set up Seelowe, so I started again with the AIIP v 1.3.1 mod.
    3. Second time round, I found it was much easier than the '38 campaign to build up a decent military. With Seelowe in mind, I built marines, paras, transports for both, a reasonable Navy, a Naval Air Group and plenty of troops. I was worried that (as in HOI2) if you build too much early on, you can run out of resources, but this did not seem to be the case.
    4. Then I fell foul of those little idiosyncracies of the game. AUS allied with me, so no Anscluss. So the Czech Crisis didn't fire either. So, somewhat belatedly, I decided to attack CZE (without AUS help... they need to fix that).

    Here's the plan:



    You will note that I have started using the Axis of Advance approach. So when you pick your objective, you also shift/right click where you want to go, and a pretty green line is drawn to your target area. Lets see if it keeps my AI troops focused on the target. My results in this campaign were encourgaring, but inconclusive - more anon.

    However, another moan. See those Panzer troops in the south ready to launch from AUS? They absolutely refused to do so, even with no opposition in front of them. And the Austrians took no part... some allies eh. Issues like this really need to be fixed.

    Another challenge. As soon as I invaded CZE. The allies DOWed me and as soon as I had annexed CZE, POL quietly joined them. First I knew was when they started taking my largely undefended lands on the border. Crisis!! Here was a chance to see the Axis of Advance in action. I needed my troops on the border quick!

    Berlin is in danger!

    Here is where I am starting to rescue the situation (just in time for Berlin too)...



    As you can see, it's good news. My armies are, by and large, following the objectives along the Axis. Even better, click on any army with an Axis order and you see all the other ones (highhlighted in blue). It works very well, and you can see at a glance whether things are going to plan.

    I don't know for sure, but I also get the impression that it helps an army keep together with it's HQs and any associated Air Groups. I certainly found my HQs dutifully following a few provinces behind, and the Air Groups moving to forward airfields when available.

    Another plus is that you can now give objectives quite some distance away, and the AI will stay focussed on it. That's more like it in terms of Grand Strategy Wargaming.

    Overall, this is a big win. Thanks notger.heinz .


    Sometimes this HQ AI is Very GOOD... But then it can be really STUPID

    Like ignoring these Partisans eating up country around them. Yawn, micromanage time...



    Battle for France (Again)

    After taking out POL, I reorganised as normal. Same trick: a small Army set for attacking DEN, a covering force in the East, and the bulk of my army up on the HOL, BEL, LUX borders. Come March 1939, I was ready, and motivated to get on with it when the US joined the Allies (they've got to fix that too). So 14 months earlier than planned I invaded.

    Here's the plan a few days into the attack:



    Note that the AI is continuing to be good, and I love these medium range objectives.

    I also have given my paras a little practice in Antwerp, to support the attack on Brussels. It works fine, but I've realised something Essential. There is no way that the AI will get the paratroops to do this on its own, and good thing too, you don't want them jumping into Corsica at this point do you. Seelowe is going to be micromanaged at the Corps level, there is no way round that.

    The Battle for France proves to be fairly straightforward (particularly as the French don't get any support from their allies - UK and US). A huge French army sits in Paris, and my AI won't attack (despite having 2 Armies surrounding it).



    I'm Hitler in my bunker, remember. My generals have been telling me for years to trust the AI (er sorry, their skills), and I've sat there, mad with frustration as they have gone on with the job. But this is too much. I have the premonition of something called "The Vichy Event". And to get it, I must take Paris. Flying over to Army HQ in Versailles, I put the boot in, cancel all orders for 2 and 3 Armees and tell them to Attack Paris. At once. My generals shake their heads but order it so...

    This is why I shouldn't have got involved...



    I've weakened my front line, and the French burst through. They make it all the way up to Caen, before I retrieved the situation.

    The AI does know what it is doing.

    I also got the opportunity to practice my amphibious landings to pick off a pocket of French behind my lines. This landing worked (2 Marine Divisions). Question is (paraphrasing a certain film): "Wo ist der Royal Navy?"



    While all this is going on, I notice a little AI ordered fight over Kent in England. My pilots (who got roundly beaten), did notice something 'sehr interesantes'... a little hole around Brighton with no coastal fortications....



    Taxi run for the kids now.

    Later, Seelowe, and Conclusion update.

  11. #51
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    INVADE!!!!

  12. #52
    Field Marshal loki100's Avatar
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    Again, really fascinating and informative - I'm also finding that the axis of advance seems to work best .. up to a point (but the problem isn't that huge).

    The only issue, is that of course the AI-AI can't step in and sort things out (or as you managed, unsort things - I've also noted a few times when I thought the army AI was going wrong it was actually being pretty sensible)

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Leviathan07 View Post

    INVADE!!!!
    Indeed!

    As you can see I had hastily assembled a special army (with the innovative name of "Special Army England"):
    • 1 Marine Corps (4 Divisions)
    • 1 Airbourne Corps (4 Divisions)
    • 2 Infantry Corps (6 Divisions)
    • 1 Light Panzer Corps (2 Divisions). The rest of my Panzers were just too embroiled in France... "where is my verdamnt 'Vichy Event' mumbled Hitler at the Planning session "
    • c20 Air Wings of all types.

    My plan was a simultaneous invasion of England with the Marines at Portsmouth and do a Air drop into that undefended beach at Brighton.

    I would follow up with the Infantry and the Panzers in 2nd and 3rd waves using targets of opportunity (ie undefended beaches).



    I first gave the AI a shot at this. It lasted 4 hours before I reloaded the game. The paras decided to walk to Caen, and the rest of the Army decided to spread themselves around the French coast. Clearly the AI could not cope with either a sea of an air invasion. So a bit of micromanagement at the Corps level was required.

    To be fair, Seelowe was rather disappointing. The British had left holes everywhere, and did not seem to have even Commonwealth support to back them up. They were not defending Africa either as the Italians were closing in on Alexandra at this point.



    Key points:
    • After the paradrop, the Brits took ages to launch half hearted counterattacks on that intimidating stack of Paras.
    • The attack on Portmouth was a total failure, the Marines took one look at the beach and turned round and went home. This is me getting used to the quirks of Amphibious Assault in HOI. I had made sure that all the ships were in good condition, but nothing could convince them to attack. Did the AI think that the odds were too tough? Anyway, Weymouth became undefended as the Brits rushed to see off the Paras and the Marine Corps landed there.
    • The subsequent landings went without problems on undefended beaches as the Marines and teh Paras fought there way inland.
    • While they did get involved, I felt the airforce AI was poor. They did not fly enough, and my bombers were beaten up unprotected by the Fighters who were clearly spending time in the fleshpots of Amsterdam and Paris
    • The Royal Navy made a few pathetic attempts at attacking my Kriegmarine Battlefleet using Flottilas of 4 or so. 4 seems to be the magic number for the HOI Navy AI, but it does not make sense when you come up against a large battle fleet...



    I am going to leave describing this campaign at this point, as I feel I have gone as I need to with its objectives. Here is a look at the big picture:



    Southern England is conquered. Still no Vichy Event as I plough on through Southern France. The French have counter attacked though Alsace Lorraine as I concentrated my forces finishing off Metz. Another of Der Fuhrer's dodgy interventions, I'm afraid . Not a big problem.

    Next up... Learnings.


    To do this, I will update the list to HQ AI happiness and copy that to the first post on the thread, so it is always in easy view for those who don't care to share the 'journey'.

    Cheers

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by loki100 View Post
    I've also noted a few times when I thought the army AI was going wrong it was actually being pretty sensible)
    You are absolutely right on that. This is a clever AI in many respects. It will fill holes in the line using spare units from other Armies if necessary. But you have to have spare Divisions. It will not split up into Brigade units to plug gaps.

    I've also noticed that with the Axis of Advance, units are prepared to use their initiative and go beyond the target province if there are no enemies close by.

    So you can take your eye off the ball occasionally and it will do a good job. I almost totally concentrated on Seelowe, and ignored France, and the AI did a good job.

  15. #55
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    Good job overall.

    It's nice to see that some progress has been made in 1.3, altough some of the complaints you've filed sound depressingly like things I experienced during my AAR in 1.2.
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  16. #56
    Banned EvilFishtank's Avatar
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    I think this latest update shows that the UK ai needs to be overhauled. They don't defend their home island or north africa well at all. Every single time it is a complete cakewalk! very frustrating. This AAR is a service to the community though. Thanks for doing the tedious legwork we're all to lazy to do.

  17. #57
    Lt. General Luka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilFishtank View Post
    I think this latest update shows that the UK ai needs to be overhauled. They don't defend their home island or north africa well at all. Every single time it is a complete cakewalk! very frustrating. This AAR is a service to the community though. Thanks for doing the tedious legwork we're all to lazy to do.
    There is no UK, or any other country specific, AI. The AI is generic and non-scripted. It seems that the tactical AI seems to be working well, but strategic decisions (such as redeployment of naval forces to protect the UK mainland in this example) that the AI makes needs some work.
    "Oww! Owwwwwww! They're defending themselves somehow" - Homer J. Simpson

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  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Luka View Post
    There is no UK, or any other country specific, AI. The AI is generic and non-scripted. It seems that the tactical AI seems to be working well, but strategic decisions (such as redeployment of naval forces to protect the UK mainland in this example) that the AI makes needs some work.
    You do know that what you just said is false? :P

    http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/b...dance/lulz.png

  19. #59
    Field Marshal loki100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luka View Post
    There is no UK, or any other country specific, AI. The AI is generic and non-scripted. It seems that the tactical AI seems to be working well, but strategic decisions (such as redeployment of naval forces to protect the UK mainland in this example) that the AI makes needs some work.
    I think this is quite a fundamental issue - the UK is inherently hard for an AI, all those well spread out things to defend, you need a navy, convoys, defensive and offensive air and to think of at least 3 major theatres (Europe/N Africa/India) that are geographically separated.

    I know that Paradox have a design philosophy that means they like unscripted generic AI, but I do wonder if the UK is a case too far. I think it needs rules and decision triggers to help it make sense of its options.

  20. #60
    Lt. General Luka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xendance View Post
    You do know that what you just said is false? :P

    http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/b...dance/lulz.png
    Marvellous But I've heard that individual country AI's was a no-go for PI. I wish I knew how to lua script this game (i.e. I don't know too much it) but I know some people were having issues as certain elements of the AI were not accessible to lua (not things like production AI, which is, but they must have been talking about strategic AI...maybe tactical, not sure).
    "Oww! Owwwwwww! They're defending themselves somehow" - Homer J. Simpson

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