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Thread: Buccaneers (playing as pirates)

  1. #21
    here is a possible fix to a CTD that was reported in 11.87 concerning the Buccaneer system. just replace the Terra Nova\events\TN Bucc.txt file with this one and let me know what happens (because i didnt test it ).
    Last edited by Darken; 23-04-2010 at 01:30.

  2. #22
    In DW with TN 13.104, The Buccaneer will be using the Vanilla Nomadic system as this war/diplomacy system better fits a pirate group than it does a nation/tribe. It should make the Buccaneer much more interesting to play.

  3. #23
    Here is the new adjacencies for 13.104:
    Attached Images

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darken View Post
    Here is the new adjacencies for 13.104:
    Darken

    The new adjacencies changes will mean that before you release 13.104 we need to redo the map cache and quads to get the download correct.

    This requires copying the DW map folder over the main one, then after the copy, delete from the main game the map cache directory including all the files in that directory and the quad sub directory then having the game recalculate. Then copy the new cache directory and sub quad directory from the main game back in the mod. Then when people download the mod all they have to do is copy the TN map directory over the main game and they are ok to go. I usually like to test using the debug option as I have had the cache not recalc correct a couple times in the past but I think this was because I was not deleting everything and the game does not seem to recalc any files not deleted.

  5. #25
    ok. thanks for letting me know. you will be doing a new cache for the positions file soon anyway right? so ill upload the file here so you can include it if you want. make sure to rename the file to remove the .txt part (which will make it a .csv file type officialy again).

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darken View Post
    ok. thanks for letting me know. you will be doing a new cache for the positions file soon anyway right? so ill upload the file here so you can include it if you want. make sure to rename the file to remove the .txt part (which will make it a .csv file type officialy again).
    I don't know when blist will be giving me a new positions.txt - might be a while. I will do a new cache and send you a PM. Then I will do again when blist is done.
    Last edited by 17blue17; 02-06-2011 at 23:04.

  7. #27
    thanks
    Shalom
    John F. Kennedy
    "For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence--on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day."

    John 8:32
    "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
    Martin Luther King
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  8. #28
    I noticed a few things, Since ive been playing DW so long, switching to TN is well, you notice a lot.
    One of the major things is sea battles they take FAR to long. I can imagine being in a battle for months and the ai just sending more and more ships to reinforce. I severely recomend messing around with devine wind because I thought the naval battles in that were very good.

    Of course if you want realism naval battles would happen in one day, with a couple of ships casualties before retreat. Better admirals and such would increase the percentage of their ships you could destroy relative to your own before they retreated. You'd probably need to make it auto pause after a naval battle in that system, at least in Sp.
    Another option to think about is having island nations basicly be forced to be vasals of the pirates, (makes quite a lot of sense if you think about it) Though they should probably be released if they are blockaded by "good guys for long enough" then when you have enough vasals you can enact a big event to unify them all and form a nation. But it should really require a completely uncontested ownership of the waters they live reside in.
    Perhaps some sort of ownership of sea provinces by having your ships there for long enough, you take a fraction of the trade value of the land provinces conected to it. to be made neutral teritory the ai has to ocupy the sea province without for some amount of time, giving you a chance to attack them and fend them off.
    Anyway very complex but just a few ideas that could make for a very interesting nation.

    Regardless. For now, faster naval battles probably a good thing, Give the pirates a bonus so that they take less losses if/when they retreat.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by katrex View Post
    I noticed a few things, Since ive been playing DW so long, switching to TN is well, you notice a lot.
    One of the major things is sea battles they take FAR to long. I can imagine being in a battle for months and the ai just sending more and more ships to reinforce. I severely recomend messing around with devine wind because I thought the naval battles in that were very good.

    Of course if you want realism naval battles would happen in one day, with a couple of ships casualties before retreat. Better admirals and such would increase the percentage of their ships you could destroy relative to your own before they retreated. You'd probably need to make it auto pause after a naval battle in that system, at least in Sp.
    Another option to think about is having island nations basicly be forced to be vasals of the pirates, (makes quite a lot of sense if you think about it) Though they should probably be released if they are blockaded by "good guys for long enough" then when you have enough vasals you can enact a big event to unify them all and form a nation. But it should really require a completely uncontested ownership of the waters they live reside in.
    Perhaps some sort of ownership of sea provinces by having your ships there for long enough, you take a fraction of the trade value of the land provinces conected to it. to be made neutral teritory the ai has to ocupy the sea province without for some amount of time, giving you a chance to attack them and fend them off.
    Anyway very complex but just a few ideas that could make for a very interesting nation.

    Regardless. For now, faster naval battles probably a good thing, Give the pirates a bonus so that they take less losses if/when they retreat.
    I will fix the technology file for the naval units, so that the fire/shock values match vanilla more closely. this might fix the problem in 14.108. thanks for the bug report.

    well, as far as the Buccaneer go, there just isnt enough Independant nations (is there any non-native ones druing the 1650-1700?) to use this idea. Perhaps the mediterainian could have this idea implemented but it would be very complicated and i dont think it would model realistic situations as well as the vanilla pirates do. Thanks for your ideas

    im not sure how to easily give bonuses to the vanilla pirates, but i can give bonuses to the Buccaneer if needed.
    Shalom
    John F. Kennedy
    "For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence--on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day."

    John 8:32
    "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
    Martin Luther King
    "A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is aproaching spiritual death."

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darken View Post
    I will fix the technology file for the naval units, so that the fire/shock values match vanilla more closely. this might fix the problem in 14.108. thanks for the bug report.

    well, as far as the Buccaneer go, there just isnt enough Independant nations (is there any non-native ones druing the 1650-1700?) to use this idea. Perhaps the mediterainian could have this idea implemented but it would be very complicated and i dont think it would model realistic situations as well as the vanilla pirates do. Thanks for your ideas

    im not sure how to easily give bonuses to the vanilla pirates, but i can give bonuses to the Buccaneer if needed.
    We discussed this problem once. My suggestion is to leave the fire and shock values in the mod unchanged. Instead try lowering the hull values on all the ship units in the common\units directory by 40% for each unit and then get feed back.

  11. #31
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    In addition to the changes suggested my previous post I also suggest the following:

    It seems some of the late game ships don't make much sense like iron clad, freighter, steamship etc. The ironclad is currently a light ship and the steam ship is a large ship and the freighter is transport. I am ok with this. However, they seem way too powerful and their dates are not logical.

    Historically the steam ship would be around 1840 and be alot like the 74 gun. So I would not represent this in game. Instead I would view the steamship unit as being the Big Ship iron clad sea going battle ships and the iron clad unit as being the light ship iron clad coastal ships.

    Therefore both should be at level 49 in naval.txt and their stats should be adjusted. The stats are kind of hard because we are going from wood to iron. The wood ships should not be able to even damage the iron ones but that makes game play hard. So I would set the hull for these two at twice the 74 gun.

    The freighter needs its hull lowered big time. I would make similar to the merchant man but a little faster.

    I will upload all my suggested changes and then we can release in the next version and get feedback as there is no magical answer as DW in general goofed up the naval part of the game. The final patch tried to fix but I have not heard much feed back.

    Download for changed naval files for people to test and or include with next version of mod:

    http://www.mediafire.com/file/mhh9q7...p%20Update.rar
    Last edited by 17blue17; 14-08-2011 at 00:21.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by 17blue17 View Post
    We discussed this problem once. My suggestion is to leave the fire and shock values in the mod unchanged. Instead try lowering the hull values on all the ship units in the common\units directory by 40% for each unit and then get feed back.
    I did the naval file data changes for the fire values and it does increase navy battle speed but not by a whole lot. The problem with reducing the hull size for all ships is that I worry that we would still have the same exact problem because before i did this change today, the naval fire values were like the old vanilla, now it is more like the current vanilla where the early fire values have actual positive numbers instead of 0.0. so, maybe we should see how people like this change then maybe reduce hull size if needed?
    Quote Originally Posted by 17blue17 View Post
    In addition to the changes suggested my previous post I also suggest the following:

    It seems some of the late game ships don't make much sense like iron clad, freighter, steamship etc. The ironclad is currently a light ship and the steam ship is a large ship and the freighter is transport. I am ok with this. However, they seem way too powerful and their dates are not logical.

    Historically the steam ship would be around 1840 and be alot like the 74 gun. So I would not represent this in game. Instead I would view the steamship unit as being the Big Ship iron clad sea going battle ships and the iron clad unit as being the light ship iron clad coastal ships.

    Therefore both should be at level 49 in naval.txt and their stats should be adjusted. The stats are kind of hard because we are going from wood to iron. The wood ships should not be able to even damage the iron ones but that makes game play hard. So I would set the hull for these two at twice the 74 gun.

    The freighter needs its hull lowered big time. I would make similar to the merchant man but a little faster.

    I will upload all my suggested changes and then we can release in the next version and get feedback as there is no magical answer as DW in general goofed up the naval part of the game. The final patch tried to fix but I have not heard much feed back.

    Download for changed naval files for people to test and or include with next version of mod:

    http://www.mediafire.com/file/mhh9q7...p%20Update.rar
    well, i might need your new opinion based on how i want to wait on reducing all hull sizes. if the frieghter is a metal ship, shouldnt the hull be stronger than the merchant man? or is it wood? right now, its set for coming into the game around 1900 for latin tech group which means it would probably never be seen in the game. so we either need to move it to earlier or just remove it from the game.

    I moved the average appearence date of the ironclad to 1850 and the steamship to 1860 just so that they both dont get enabled in the same decade to make the game interesting.

    well, I already made the edits to the naval file (and play tested) before reading your post here so i guess ill just stick with my edited file. If we do need to reduce the hull sizes then ill use your ship data. for now.

    so, i guess i need to know what to do with the frieghter, and if i need to change the ironclad and steamship data until we know what the official stance of mine will be in the future about all ship hull reductions.

    sorry if i annoyed you, i hope it didnt take too long for you to edit the files.

    would anyone want to install my naval file fix then do some naval battle tests? then install 17blue17's ship fixes (but keep my naval file) and report back to us on both results? I would apreciate it alot. This way, we can know if we will add the fixed ships to 14.108 or leave it in the extras folder.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darken View Post
    I did the naval file data changes for the fire values and it does increase navy battle speed but not by a whole lot. The problem with reducing the hull size for all ships is that I worry that we would still have the same exact problem because before i did this change today, the naval fire values were like the old vanilla, now it is more like the current vanilla where the early fire values have actual positive numbers instead of 0.0. so, maybe we should see how people like this change then maybe reduce hull size if needed?

    well, i might need your new opinion based on how i want to wait on reducing all hull sizes.
    Think of Hull size as defensive value. In the MEIOU forum they were using my naval mod and found the long battles to be a problem. Their solution included lowering the hull values. They also did some other things like reducing the number of ship types for game balance rather than historical units. They may have changed fire values also (I don't know) but I know their number one concern was that the hull sizes needed to be reduced for DW because of Paradox's exe changes causing the long battles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darken View Post
    if the frieghter is a metal ship, shouldnt the hull be stronger than the merchant man? or is it wood? right now, its set for coming into the game around 1900 for latin tech group which means it would probably never be seen in the game. so we either need to move it to earlier or just remove it from the game.
    early transports were built as strong as big ships - they just had less guns - and so their hull values would be higher. By the time of freighters they were not designed to be war ships. So they should not be used for battle. You could remove the freighter from game. It is really out of time frame compared to the other ships.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darken View Post

    I moved the average appearence date of the ironclad to 1850 and the steamship to 1860 just so that they both dont get enabled in the same decade to make the game interesting.
    One is a big ship, the other light. Historically they did show up around the same time 1860 or so but its ok if the light ship (iron clad) shows up first. The big ship was developed after watching the light ship perform. Just understand that the light ship in 1850 will make all other ships worthless until the steamship shows up to even the balances. So maybe the average tech for the 1860 level in the naval file should be changed to a average tech date of 1855 or 1853?

    Either way make sure to use my new stats for the ironclad and steamship and freighter. The existing ones were way way way too high.

    Note: if you decide not to reduce any hull sizes for the other ships you will need to increase my new hull size for the iron clad and steam ship from 62 to maybe 104.

    Also be sure to use my new speed and guns for the iron clad and steam ship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darken View Post

    well, I already made the edits to the naval file (and play tested) before reading your post here so i guess ill just stick with my edited file.
    Fine. In the file for HTT I had spent a lot of time with the trends for shock and fire. Not sure what you have been using for DW. There is no real right or wrong answer and if you tweaked early game that maybe was needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darken View Post

    If we do need to reduce the hull sizes then ill use your ship data. for now. so, i guess i need to know what to do with the frieghter, and if i need to change the ironclad and steamship data until we know what the official stance of mine will be in the future about all ship hull reductions.
    You need to fix the freighter, ironclad, and steamship no matter what as their numbers were way way wrong. As they are the Freighter is the most powerful ship in game nothing could defeat it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darken View Post

    sorry if i annoyed you, i hope it didnt take too long for you to edit the files.
    I was not annoyed. I just know from reading the MEIOU threads relating to my naval mod that their expert had strong feelings about the hull values (defensive values) being too high. I did mention this to you an an earlier thread a while back.

    I also did not want the standard game fire and shock values for all tech levels just blindly copied into the mod because the standard game still has issues. Paradox did not magically fix the long battles with their patches.


    As far as including items as extras - you don't need to do that for me. And you should really clean up the extras folder and other information folder etc and delete all the old stuff. Its too cluttered for anyone to look at.
    Last edited by 17blue17; 14-08-2011 at 03:25.

  14. #34
    hmmmm, i want to see results from those two tests i described above. one with hull sizes reduced and one with only my fire data fixed. I will probably use your fixed ships or maybe a 20% reduction. how long did it take you to edit the files?

    ok, i removed the frieghter. do i just remove the unit file and the naval.txt entry or is there another thing also?

    I fixed the steamship and Ironclad.

    I think i was using your HTT naval data but organized visualy to meet my pickiness. the recent change i did was increases some early fire values and now removed frieghter and moved ironclads, etc.

    the only thing to further adress now is hull sizes.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darken View Post
    hmmmm, i want to see results from those two tests i described above. one with hull sizes reduced and one with only my fire data fixed. I will probably use your fixed ships or maybe a 20% reduction. how long did it take you to edit the files?
    Not that long. I don't think anyone knows the right number. 20% could be ok I don't know. I don't have the patience to do testing. I suspect the number should be around 20 to 40%. The only thing I suggest is making the same reduction across the board except the steam ship and iron clad which I guess should be twice the 74 gun as wooden ships historically did not stand a chance against them.

    The only bad thing about the steam ship and iron clad is historically they could hit each other all day long and not do any damage so in game that would make the battles last forever so I don't know how to handle that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darken View Post

    ok, i removed the frieghter. do i just remove the unit file and the naval.txt entry or is there another thing also?
    In the interface folder the ship.gfx file you need to remove:

    EMFXActorType = {
    name = "freighter"
    actorfile = "gfx\anims\East_India_Man.xac"
    idle = "gfx\anims\Ships_Moving.xsm"
    move = "gfx\anims\Ships_Moving.xsm"
    attack = "gfx\anims\Ships_Attack.xsm"
    scale = 2.0
    }

    Quote Originally Posted by Darken View Post

    I fixed the steamship and Ironclad.

    I think i was using your HTT naval data but organized visualy to meet my pickiness. the recent change i did was increases some early fire values and now removed frieghter and moved ironclads, etc.

    the only thing to further adress now is hull sizes.
    Ok

    I don't really mind either way. I just wanted to provide some suggestions. I will wait to hear from you again at which point I can make the changes to 20% if you want.



    Question: If I had picked 80% would you have suggested 40?

    I will have to watch more Pawn Stars on tv to improve my opening bid.....

    Last edited by 17blue17; 15-08-2011 at 09:03.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by 17blue17 View Post
    In the interface folder the ship.gfx file you need to remove:

    EMFXActorType = {
    name = "freighter"
    actorfile = "gfx\anims\East_India_Man.xac"
    idle = "gfx\anims\Ships_Moving.xsm"
    move = "gfx\anims\Ships_Moving.xsm"
    attack = "gfx\anims\Ships_Attack.xsm"
    scale = 2.0
    }
    ok, removed, thanks.

    I don't really mind either way. I just wanted to provide some suggestions. I will wait to hear from you again at which point I can make the changes to 20% if you want.
    ok, thanks a bunch. Lets wait until I or somebody else can test the ships more with the fire data change. I am guessing we will need to change the hulls but im not sure. I would only want to do 20% then see how that goes and then reduce it more if needed.

    Question: If I had picked 80% would you have suggested 40?

    I will have to watch more Pawn Stars on tv to improve my opening bid.....

    LOL. well, I understand how you feel. there is a good chance i would have said 40 if you said 80 LOL. but my motivation now is that I want to make small changes until its clear what is best. if done that before in the mod with things like the events that give generals, I gradualy made the events happen more often until it was a satisfactory level.

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