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This mod is... interesting. :)

I have a question about Monarchies, especially concerning this quote :

Despotic Punishment - imprison your enemies and let you torturer's go to work on them - strictly for use by despots, tyrants and maniacs
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Does that mean that Monarchies have now a little bit more leeway in using Imprison/Banish/Execute to quell "troublesome" courtiers? What changes have been brought to the Tyranny system, to prevent a spiral of rebellion and civil war due to a spike in Tyranny after one or two imprisonments?

Because Tyranny is the one thing that bothers me in Rome, as purges and deadly politics were a hallmark of the era, and Monarchs still had quite a lot of leeway in getting rid of bad apples, and vice-versa (for assassinating Rulers). Let's say, for example, that the Macedonians were quite... direct at it.

I think the one thing that is missing in Monarchies is factions and coteries. Either coteries around a Heir over another, or one minister over another, or one Satrap over another, or even one policy over another. Right now, in Monarchies, it is almost always everyone for himself, while faction "parties" always came up for or against various elements at court.
 
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Drakken said:
This mod is... interesting. :)

I have a question about Monarchies, especially concerning this quote :



Does that mean that Monarchies have now a little bit more leeway in using Imprison/Banish/Execute to quell "troublesome" courtiers? What changes have been brought to the Tyranny system, to prevent a spiral of rebellion and civil war due to a spike in Tyranny after one or two imprisonments?

Because Tyranny is the one thing that bothers me in Rome, as purges and deadly politics were a hallmark of the era, and Monarchs still had quite a lot of leeway in getting rid of bad apples, and vice-versa (for assassinating Rulers). Let's say, for example, that the Macedonians were quite... direct at it.
Click to expand...

Provided you "mark" a man before imprisoning him, it gives you a few more options as to what you can do to them,ie, main, wound, blind, etc. It is restricted to despotic monarchies, tyrannies and crazy rulers.

You raise a good point about tyranny, I to find it somewhat restricting. A while ago I contemplated putting in a tyranny modifier for both the despotic monarchy and tyranny government types. With the modifier I was thinking along the lines of increasing the tyranny reduction speed for both governments but I think it needs to be balanced up with some sort of penalty. Any thoughts ?

Drakken said:
I think the one thing that is missing in Monarchies is factions and coteries. Either coteries around a Heir over another, or one minister over another, or one Satrap over another, or even one policy over another. Right now, in Monarchies, it is almost always everyone for himself, while faction "parties" always came up for or against various elements at court.
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Yes, I agree it certainly isnt visible if it is there at all. I guess such rivarlies could be simulated by the introduction of a few more events.
 
Hardradi said:
Provided you "mark" a man before imprisoning him, it gives you a few more options as to what you can do to them,ie, main, wound, blind, etc. It is restricted to despotic monarchies, tyrannies and crazy rulers.
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Given that torture and "cruel punishment" was prevalent in that day and age. All monarchies should be able to do this, to a degree. After all, even as far as the Byzantine Empire enemies of the Basileus, even their own sons, were routinely blinded as punishment. Also, beating a convict was a frequent way to interrogate a suspect or a prisoner in prison - and make him or her denounce potential accomplices.

I can see why torture as a deliberate means of corporal punishment, however, could be reserved to tyrannies, cruel monarchs, and despotates. But just as tyrannies, despots, and cruel leaders may "mark" a character for torture, reasonable monarchs and "moderate" monarchies could mark a character for a trial for conspiracy of treason (and, possibly, even a show trial).

Imprisoning a character and keeping it there should not be considered as Tyranny per se. I humbly suggest that imprisoning people should give a very small increase in Tyranny (like 0.5 up to 1 point of Tyranny each) and a decrease in the ruler's overall popularity.

Simultaneously, the trigger "Imprisoned" can be used to set off a "trial" series of event more or less rapidly. If you choose to let him stu in prison for a little while, hoping he would confess or die in prison, it can increase Tyranny and cause other "problem" events : sympathetic courtiers, conspiracies, evasion, pleadings, etc. But you could, also, call for a speedy trial and throw the dice, hoping for a verdict going in your way.

The more popular, the less corrupted, the more influental friends, or the most "charming" the accused is depending of other traits or ambitions, the higher the chance of acquittal. But even with these, the possibility of a miscarriage of justice should remain remotely possible with a slight chance of acquittal or guilty, depending of the situation. And of course, your monarch's stats, your minister's stats, or other criteria could weight in the balance as well.

Faced with a random result, either guilty or not guilty, then the player may decide what to do with the accused via several event choices. Only then, if you decide to execute him or banish him anyway with a verdict of acquital, it should increase tyranny. The same, also, if you pardon a character after a verdict of guilty. But punishing "deserving" characters, or characters declared guilty, via the due course of the law should hardly be considered tyrannical. In fact, it would make the realm safer (and thus decrease Tyranny)!

Of course, tyrannies and despotical monarchies can have trials as well, and even access to another type of trial: the show trial. Yes, it increases even more the chances of being declared guilty for a lesser amount of Tyranny and getting rid of one or two troublesome players, at least at first. But the downside would be that it will inevitably lead to waves of purge trials, as more and more people are suspected of conspiracy, even relatives, friends, and ministers are implicated totally out of the player's control. For all wannabee Caligulas, there are also wannabee Tiberiuses.

What do you make of my modest proposal? If I were "Rome event-programming literate", I'd do it for you. :)

Hardradi said:
You raise a good point about tyranny, I to find it somewhat restricting. A while ago I contemplated putting in a tyranny modifier for both the despotic monarchy and tyranny government types. With the modifier I was thinking along the lines of increasing the tyranny reduction speed for both governments but I think it needs to be balanced up with some sort of penalty. Any thoughts ?
Click to expand...

My main problem about Tyranny is that it decreases the loyalty over time, monthly. That Tyranny could increase revolt risk is fine IMHO. But the decrease in character loyalty should be a little larger, but one-shot only, except among Rivals of the target, whose Loyalty should actually increase.


Hardradi said:
Yes, I agree it certainly isnt visible if it is there at all. I guess such rivarlies could be simulated by the introduction of a few more events.
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That, and exploting the Friends/Rivals system would ease up creating factions. After all, a group of Friends with the same Rival, or the same ambition, would constitute a coterie. :)
 
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Okey, what are the conditions for:

- Impacting my children's marriage choice?
- Divorce my wife?
- Take a mistress?

None of these choices have appeared in my Macedonian game yet...
 
Drakken said:
Given that torture and "cruel punishment" was prevalent in that day and age. All monarchies should be able to do this, to a degree. After all, even as far as the Byzantine Empire enemies of the Basileus, even their own sons, were routinely blinded as punishment. Also, beating a convict was a frequent way to interrogate a suspect or a prisoner in prison - and make him or her denounce potential accomplices.

I can see why torture as a deliberate means of corporal punishment, however, could be reserved to tyrannies, cruel monarchs, and despotates. But just as tyrannies, despots, and cruel leaders may "mark" a character for torture, reasonable monarchs and "moderate" monarchies could mark a character for a trial for conspiracy of treason (and, possibly, even a show trial).

Imprisoning a character and keeping it there should not be considered as Tyranny per se. I humbly suggest that imprisoning people should give a very small increase in Tyranny (like 0.5 up to 1 point of Tyranny each) and a decrease in the ruler's overall popularity.

Simultaneously, the trigger "Imprisoned" can be used to set off a "trial" series of event more or less rapidly. If you choose to let him stu in prison for a little while, hoping he would confess or die in prison, it can increase Tyranny and cause other "problem" events : sympathetic courtiers, conspiracies, evasion, pleadings, etc. But you could, also, call for a speedy trial and throw the dice, hoping for a verdict going in your way.

The more popular, the less corrupted, the more influental friends, or the most "charming" the accused is depending of other traits or ambitions, the higher the chance of acquittal. But even with these, the possibility of a miscarriage of justice should remain remotely possible with a slight chance of acquittal or guilty, depending of the situation. And of course, your monarch's stats, your minister's stats, or other criteria could weight in the balance as well.

Faced with a random result, either guilty or not guilty, then the player may decide what to do with the accused via several event choices. Only then, if you decide to execute him or banish him anyway with a verdict of acquital, it should increase tyranny. The same, also, if you pardon a character after a verdict of guilty. But punishing "deserving" characters, or characters declared guilty, via the due course of the law should hardly be considered tyrannical. In fact, it would make the realm safer (and thus decrease Tyranny)!

Of course, tyrannies and despotical monarchies can have trials as well, and even access to another type of trial: the show trial. Yes, it increases even more the chances of being declared guilty for a lesser amount of Tyranny and getting rid of one or two troublesome players, at least at first. But the downside would be that it will inevitably lead to waves of purge trials, as more and more people are suspected of conspiracy, even relatives, friends, and ministers are implicated totally out of the player's control. For all wannabee Caligulas, there are also wannabee Tiberiuses.

What do you make of my modest proposal? If I were "Rome event-programming literate", I'd do it for you. :)
Click to expand...

Yes, legitimate and show trials would make a great additional for monarchies. Some people have been complaining in the main forum that the execution and banishment penalties are to high. Cheexsta (i think) has done something similar for dealing with populists in republics. I wouldnt stop you from creating such a system.:D

My main problem about Tyranny is that it decreases the loyalty over time, monthly. That Tyranny could increase revolt risk is fine IMHO. But the decrease in character loyalty should be a little larger, but one-shot only, except among Rivals of the target, whose Loyalty should actually increase.
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I dont think imprisonment and execution can be adjusted for a one-shot penalty but my "torture events" include a one shot -5 popularity penalty.

The effect of tyranny can be modified in static modifiers:
Code: 
# Multiplied by the current Tyranny value
tyranny = {
	global_revolt_risk = 0.2
	research_points_modifier = -0.01
	ruler_popularity_gain = -0.05
}
I might reduce the "ruler_popularity_gain" penalty and include a "stability_cost_modifier".

Drakken said:
Okey, what are the conditions for:

- Impacting my children's marriage choice?
- Divorce my wife?
- Take a mistress?

None of these choices have appeared in my Macedonian game yet...
Click to expand...

The posts on marriage, divorce and concubines were only previews. They will appear in the next version which I hope to finish by the end of this month.
 
For the record, Hard, I absolutely love the option to place friendly tyrannies in occupied lands. :)
 
Hardradi said:
Yes, legitimate and show trials would make a great additional for monarchies. Some people have been complaining in the main forum that the execution and banishment penalties are to high. Cheexsta (i think) has done something similar for dealing with populists in republics. I wouldnt stop you from creating such a system.:D
Click to expand...

Find me a way to teach me or help me learn to program events, and I'll work on it. :)
 
Yeah, I made a character trial series of events in a previous version of TCM. I wasn't happy with the coding for it so I removed it for TCM2.0, but I'm trying to think of a better way for it to work :)
 
Cheexsta said:
Yeah, I made a character trial series of events in a previous version of TCM. I wasn't happy with the coding for it so I removed it for TCM2.0, but I'm trying to think of a better way for it to work :)
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I think the best way is to keep it simple, at least at first.

To me, it is a way for "moderate" monarchies and Republics to use the rule of law to to give a player (or the AI) a chance to get rid of troublesome characters via due (or undue) process of law, and thus with a way smaller amount of Tyranny.

The disadvantage, however, is that the result wpuld ultimately be random and out of the player's reach; in other words, a gamble. Your target may be found innocent by the courts. A random event might bring a friend of yours to a trial and have it declared guilty, calling you to bring punishment: refusing to condemn a "guilty" would be as dangerous as to refuse to free an "innocent", Tyranny-wise.

Moderate regimes should be restrained to "fair trials". Mock trials should be available only to tyrannies, despotates, and states having a high-cunning, Paranoid leader or chancellor. And like I said, if the decision to start a campaign of "mock trials" can at first succeed in getting rid more easily of targets and embezzle their money, the chances of random trials should increase exponentilally as more people talk and the process goes haywire.

Sadly, my knowledge of event-programming is very poor, so I can only speak theorically. But perhaps it can give ideas to people more knowledgeable than me. :)

Why did you find your trial event set disappointing? What were the limitations?
 
Drakken said:
For the record, Hard, I absolutely love the option to place friendly tyrannies in occupied lands. :)
Click to expand...

Thanks Drak. Me to, perhaps one day I will get time to incorporate some more provinces in Greece and we can incorporate the other tyrannies in Elis, Megapolis, etc. Then I would like to throw on top of that a support tyrannies decision, which keeps your relations high with the tyrannies but costs you gold.

You said you were playing as Macedon right, if you can get your hands on a Ptolemy character and own Cyprus you can instal the Ptolemy as a civil war against the Ptolemiac Kingdom. That would be fun. :)

Also been working a bit on Pyrrhus and looking to include decisions to instal his sons Helenus and Alexander as kings of Italy and Sicily (through their dynastic connection with Agathocles).

Drakken said:
Find me a way to teach me or help me learn to program events, and I'll work on it. :)
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I wish it was easy, I have a lot of stuff in the pipeline which could really be enhanced with some detailed event coding. Unless you are a programmer you are going to have to sacrifice quite a few hours of your life to learn - I have and I am still not very good.

Start small by copying the code in vanilla events and doing it bit by bit. Look into other "small" mods and see how they have done it. You can pick it up but it just takes time and dedication. Also people are always willing to help when you cant get something to work.
 
Yes, there is always a way. I know Cheexsta mentioned it. It wouldnt be to hard.

I am close with the next release, the next few days. I have added a fair amount of new content and I can see a slight slowdown on my computer system (i7.950,6gbRAM). I think its mainly from new countries.

The new release might even include some modifications for Sparta: new government, helots, perioci, 3 stages of the agoge, spartiates and reform laws(Agias and Cleomenes).
 
Hardradi said:
Yes, there is always a way. I know Cheexsta mentioned it. It wouldnt be to hard.

I am close with the next release, the next few days. I have added a fair amount of new content and I can see a slight slowdown on my computer system (i7.950,6gbRAM). I think its mainly from new countries.

The new release might even include some modifications for Sparta: new government, helots, perioci, 3 stages of the agoge, spartiates and reform laws(Agias and Cleomenes).
Click to expand...

I would love to see a more in-depth Sparta, it is one of my favorite countries to play as.
 
Hardradi said:
Yes, there is always a way. I know Cheexsta mentioned it. It wouldnt be to hard.

I am close with the next release, the next few days. I have added a fair amount of new content and I can see a slight slowdown on my computer system (i7.950,6gbRAM). I think its mainly from new countries.

The new release might even include some modifications for Sparta: new government, helots, perioci, 3 stages of the agoge, spartiates and reform laws(Agias and Cleomenes).
Click to expand...


Ooh I'd love that! :D *is eager*
Any chance you can auto-include the Cheexsta Total Conquest mod? (with his permission of course)
 
This is what I have so far:

Governments: done
- Spartan Monarchy: traditional monarchy but hopefully with a bastardised verison of a dual monarchy to be implemented via on_actions and events. This will allow it it to flip between the Agiad and Eurypontid dynasties but keep it within these families
- Spartan Government (in game a republic): the five factions represent the influence of the five ephors over the Spartan King(s) and Spartan Policy. Hopefully including dynasty flipping as per Spartan Monarchy


Titles: mostly done
- Agoge: levels 1 - 3 based on age, this is pretty basic at the moment, but hope to implement education events later
- Spartiate - full citizen (based on wealth pre reform, this limits it to a few as was a problem in Sparta at the start of the game period); fully available post reform after completing Agoge
- Inferiors (hypomeiones) - Spartan citizens who have lost their rights, through lack of land and wealth. Most characters are Inferiors pre-reform; post reform it should only be those who are cowardly,weak, etc
- Helots and Perioeci titles. They were useless in game and stripped Sparta of its useful characters. I have removed them for now.


Laws: done
- A series of reforms (ala Agid) to bring Sparta back to her glory days, climaxing (if you want to go that far) in the expulsion of the ephors (ala Cleomenes) and converison back to the pure Lycurgian Monarchy
- Weakening of the Spartan Monarchy and Conversion back to Spartan Government (republic), via repealing of reforms
- An all out coup (ala Cleomenes) based on military domination by a King (to be developed) - Spartan Government to Spartan Monarchy


Decisions: half done
- thinking about expulsion of dual monarchy system (ala Cleomenes) by converison to Despostic Monarchy from Spartan Monarchy
- thinking about military reforms (ala Cleomenes) - macedonian system


Other ideas: not done
- once the Agoge education system is developed, allow other monarchs to send their sons to Sparta for training (Phyrrus was thinking about this)
- Support greek city state reforms policy decision: a declaration that Sparta supports the freedom of greek states and debtor and land reforms within those states, this increases revolt risk and reduces manpower of neighbouring provinces but reduces your relations with the owners
- figure out how to put in a few helots and perioeci so I can include playmates and freed helots
- figure out if it is possible to limit titles by birth province (this would help restrict foreigners from becoming Spartiates)
- some custom helot and perioeci revolt events
- admittance to the Spartan King Hippias (bodyguard)
- get rid of vanilla titles, laws and decisions that are not applicable to sparta
- (DONE) new mercenary decisions for Sparta and other states to represent Cape Taenarum - mercenary recruitment bonuses for Sparta and those who have good relations with it
 
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Jak9090 said:
Hey whens next release, also should combine with the new law and order mod, this is one of the best rome mods imo
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It's still in its infancy phase, nothing has been programmed as of now. But thanks for complimenting the idea as having the potential to be among the best mods available. :)

However, I fully intended it to be compatible with Hardradi Epigoni mod at first, so much as in my head it was to be a complement for moderate regimes and republics. But since nothing concrete is ready yet, except the laying out of my ideas and concepts, if Hardradi wants to integrate them in his mod by himself, his has my full consent and I will give him full support and consulting as he has much more coding expertise as I do.
 
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great because the events,desions and char traits in epigoni are what help it get much more depth, and coupled with what you have proposed, i think rome will finally be what i expected for vanilla
 
Drakken said:
This mod is... interesting. :)

I have a question about Monarchies, especially concerning this quote :



Does that mean that Monarchies have now a little bit more leeway in using Imprison/Banish/Execute to quell "troublesome" courtiers? What changes have been brought to the Tyranny system, to prevent a spiral of rebellion and civil war due to a spike in Tyranny after one or two imprisonments?

Because Tyranny is the one thing that bothers me in Rome, as purges and deadly politics were a hallmark of the era, and Monarchs still had quite a lot of leeway in getting rid of bad apples, and vice-versa (for assassinating Rulers). Let's say, for example, that the Macedonians were quite... direct at it.

I think the one thing that is missing in Monarchies is factions and coteries. Either coteries around a Heir over another, or one minister over another, or one Satrap over another, or even one policy over another. Right now, in Monarchies, it is almost always everyone for himself, while faction "parties" always came up for or against various elements at court.
Click to expand...

Tyranny lowers their loyalty by a very low percentage. unit loyalty is the killer. unless your empire makes a very large income. it is very demanding to bribe and triumph your generals since they lose 3 loyalty every month.

Tyranny should not be a problem unless you let it get to be one. there are only a few times where imprisoning someone is necessary. and that is when the people aren't taken care of earlier.



and Monarchies do have factions.. they are families. more than half of my empire is governed by people within my family. not only are they born with more loyalty than others. but there is a low chance for them to become rivals instead of friends. being governor leads to becoming rich and having a family. which extends your "faction" even more.
 
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