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It seems obvious to me that Paradox will work to fix the current version of the game before starting an expansion. HOI and HOI2 both needed fixing when they came out and are now much better games than at the start. If you are so upset with it ask for a refund and quit turning every thread into a game flaming session. You can then continue reading the threads to see if the game is up to your expectations and buy it when it is. If you want a perfect game when you buy it you should wait until it has been updated a few times before buying it instead of buying at release.

If I understand your argument, HoI1 and 2 were flawed to at release, so it is ok if HoI3 is too? Since they eventually became good games, then inevitably HoI3 will too? Isn't this a bit foolish? After all, EU3:Rome was bad to start with, and stayed that way after many patches and an expansion.

Anyhow, if you believe this to be true, and have the patience to wait, the money to buy several expansions until the game actually plays half decently, well man that's great for you. This is not my case, and I will continue to voice my opinion, whether you like it or not does not interest me.

If paradox had advertised hoi3 vanilla 1.0 by saying : this game is broken ATM, the core features are screwed, the ai builds nothing but convoy escorts & transports, japan gets owned by communist china and GB can't defend against sealion... guess what? I probably wouldn't have bought it.

And to go back on topic, yes it would sensible to release an expansion for free, IF this expansion, like NA was to EU3, is the only way to increase dramatically the performance of the vanilla game.
Why should I pay for code optimization? It shouldn't be crappy in the first place.
 
If I understand your argument, HoI1 and 2 were flawed to at release, so it is ok if HoI3 is too? Since they eventually became good games, then inevitably HoI3 will too? Isn't this a bit foolish? After all, EU3:Rome was bad to start with, and stayed that way after many patches and an expansion.

Anyhow, if you believe this to be true, and have the patience to wait, the money to buy several expansions until the game actually plays half decently, well man that's great for you. This is not my case, and I will continue to voice my opinion, whether you like it or not does not interest me.

If paradox had advertised hoi3 vanilla 1.0 by saying : this game is broken ATM, the core features are screwed, the ai builds nothing but convoy escorts & transports, japan gets owned by communist china and GB can't defend against sealion... guess what? I probably wouldn't have bought it.


I agree that Paradox should have held off release until the product was finished. That is not what happened and, if you look at their previous track record with HOI games, it should not surprise you. It seems probable that Paradox did not fully realize that the game was in the state that it was when it was released or they would have taken more time to perfect the game. What I was saying is that people could save themselves headaches in the future by waiting until after a game has been released and reading the forums to decide when to purchase. I was also letting people know that if they are overly upset about the current state of the game that Paradox has given refunds and that after they get their refund they can wait until the game is in a state that suits them before repurchasing, if that is what they want to do.

Most of the games that Paradox comes out with eventually become a games that the vast majority player have a very satisfying experience playing. I may be wrong in assuming that HOI3 will be the same but I hope not.

I am not trying to tell anyone that they shouldn't express their opinion. I am simply saying that people should not hijack a thread, like this one, that has nothing to do with saying the game is in a shoddy state and use it to express their opinion of the game. Anyone who wants to complain about the game can simply make their own thread or post in a thread that is about how poorly the game currently works.

And to go back on topic, yes it would sensible to release an expansion for free, IF this expansion, like NA was to EU3, is the only way to increase dramatically the performance of the vanilla game.
Why should I pay for code optimization? It shouldn't be crappy in the first place.


Wouldn't it be more sensible to simply patch the game to a more perfected state like Paradox is attempting to do currently rather than adding that patch to a free expansion that may or may not have problems of it's own.
 
If I understand your argument, HoI1 and 2 were flawed to at release, so it is ok if HoI3 is too? Since they eventually became good games, then inevitably HoI3 will too? Isn't this a bit foolish? After all, EU3:Rome was bad to start with, and stayed that way after many patches and an expansion.

HoI2 and EU3, the other two Paradox games that I have bought at release, were not broken as HoI3 is right now. Both were playable, and while both had bugs, they certainly weren't broken by any stretch of the imagination.
 
*Sigh* HOI3 will be fixed shortly and will become a great game in the future. If PI doesn't, they are cutting their own throat. PI isn't stupid. Therefore I am not too worried.

So, I don't think it's inappropriate to talk about a future expansion for HOI3.

There are other threads for complaining about HOI3 lack of completeness or unplayability. Take them there.

It's simple really.

I agree with the other poster who said he'd like to see the economic side of it fleshed out a bit more. That would be nice. Extending the time line into the 1950s would be good too.
 
Some simple suggestions for starters:
# More Resources; Iron, Rare Metals, Aluminium, Uranium & Steel perhaps.
# More Industry; Heavy & Light Industry as well as some processes (Iron+Energy->Steel)
# More Installations; Like Fuel Refineries, Conversion Plants or Process plants (Steel mills for process above)
# More Products; Trucks, Airplanes, Tanks & Guns (abstracted) are built and either traded or used to train divisions/units with or use as replacements.
# Flavour teams; to build them with (Order 500 Tanks from Krupp, pay with money, steel & guns)
# Industrial Decisions & Events; (Plan Z, Yamato Project, Sherman & Libertyship assembly lines)
# More Research; Into the Logistical and Industrial fields.
# More Control; set up depots and build up supplies & fuels nearby before offensives
# More Economy; A new budget interface similar to AoD.

They're making this, it's called Victoria 2.
 
I agree that Paradox should have held off release until the product was finished. That is not what happened and, if you look at their previous track record with HOI games, it should not surprise you. It seems probable that Paradox did not fully realize that the game was in the state that it was when it was released or they would have taken more time to perfect the game. What I was saying is that people could save themselves headaches in the future by waiting until after a game has been released and reading the forums to decide when to purchase. I was also letting people know that if they are overly upset about the current state of the game that Paradox has given refunds and that after they get their refund they can wait until the game is in a state that suits them before repurchasing, if that is what they want to do.

Most of the games that Paradox comes out with eventually become a games that the vast majority player have a very satisfying experience playing. I may be wrong in assuming that HOI3 will be the same but I hope not.

I am not trying to tell anyone that they shouldn't express their opinion. I am simply saying that people should not hijack a thread, like this one, that has nothing to do with saying the game is in a shoddy state and use it to express their opinion of the game. Anyone who wants to complain about the game can simply make their own thread or post in a thread that is about how poorly the game currently works.

Wouldn't it be more sensible to simply patch the game to a more perfected state like Paradox is attempting to do currently rather than adding that patch to a free expansion that may or may not have problems of it's own.

You really don't get it do you? First of all you're not a moderator so it isn't up to you to decide on what is on topic and what isn't. These boards are actively moderated so concentrate on your argumentation and leave these matters to moderators.

Second, the OP says that since the game plays so bad, it would be sensible for paradox, as a commercial gesture, to release a free expansion. So yes, this thread also is about this game being a sad piece of brahim dung.

Third, it's none of your business if I want to complain while waiting for the game to be patched to a playable state or get a refund and forget about this whole disaster. I almost did that BTW since my forum account wasn't working and I had to wait 1 month and send 4 mails to support before it actually was fixed. Anyhow... I'm a strategy game fanatic, which is why I preordered hoi3 in the first place. I don't want a refund I want this game to work as advertised. Period.

Fourthly, Paradox has in the past (NA) released an expansion which gave a great boost to game performance. Since hoi3 plays awfully slow, I am concerned this may happen again.

Fifth, Paradox is actually on the downhill when it comes to releasing playable games. Its getting worse with every eu3-generation game. EU3 was flawed but playable, EU3:Rome was awful, HoI3 is a disaster. I feel it necessary to repeat this over and over until this changes. And no, this hasn't always been that way. I still have my box copy of hoi2 and a clean install plays way better than hoi3.
If we have to wait 6 months for the game to be playable well then paradox should say so : this release is still an in-development version of the game.

Now will you please mind your own business. If you love the game as it is, well man that's great for you. Go play it.
 
I agree that Paradox should have held off release until the product was finished. That is not what happened and, if you look at their previous track record with HOI games, it should not surprise you. ...What I was saying is that people could save themselves headaches in the future by waiting until after a game has been released and reading the forums to decide when to purchase.

I'm not trying to pick on you, but this is an assertion that I've seen from several posters that I really take issue with.

Several posters have claimed, in essence, that it's our own fault for buying PI's release-garbage, that PI has a track record of doing this and we should have known this was coming. This is blaming the battered wife for her black eye.

PI put promises on the box, promises on the web, promises all over. Do you really believe it's the consumer's fault for relying on those promises in making purchase decisions? I just have a problem with looking to a person who's been lied to and saying, "well, that shows you for believing all those promises about what you were buying." In my opinion, it's PI that made those promises; it's PI who should feel ashamed for taking advantage of its customers.

Please feel free to respond, I'm genuinely curious about why people have defended PI in this manner. Is it a sense of loyalty? Consumer-apathy? Have people used this argument in relation to other games? Have we become like the abuser's family that just wants to cover the bruisers and tell the wife to stop making him angry?
 
Brutal, but excellent analogy.
 
We're not gonna even look at designing an expansion until we have a game that most people are satisfied with.
 
These quotes summarize Tortuga's personal view on the topic:

I think it's more a question of whether the expansion packs are just patches, or if they really include significant new features. If they really enhance gameplay with new content (new units, new scenarios, new gameplay mechanics) then they're worth paying for. If they are just patches disguised as an expansion pack, they're not worth paying for - you're paying for something you should already have gotten.

The problem is easily solved - read reviews and decide if you're really getting something out of the expansion pack that you want. If you like the base product and see new features you want - buy it. If you don't, then don't fork out the dough. If the product you already bought isn't performing up to your standards, don't show your support by buying expansion packs.

Unfortunately, it ends up being very hard to follow-through with this, since if one person buys the expansion, they want others to get it for MP even if its crappy. And a lot of people buy on reputation and don't base it on reviews, so again you get a snowball of purchases.

The biggest "GOTCHA!" is when an expansion is both exp & patch both, making people who want fixes really want to have it, but the new content "allows" for the product to cost money. So many companies come to mind...

We're not gonna even look at designing an expansion until we have a game that most people are satisfied with.

A very sensible post, just what the consumer wants to hear.

(Edited: upon further review, video evidence overturns the original statement)
 
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I'm not trying to pick on you, but this is an assertion that I've seen from several posters that I really take issue with.

Several posters have claimed, in essence, that it's our own fault for buying PI's release-garbage, that PI has a track record of doing this and we should have known this was coming. This is blaming the battered wife for her black eye.

PI put promises on the box, promises on the web, promises all over. Do you really believe it's the consumer's fault for relying on those promises in making purchase decisions? I just have a problem with looking to a person who's been lied to and saying, "well, that shows you for believing all those promises about what you were buying." In my opinion, it's PI that made those promises; it's PI who should feel ashamed for taking advantage of its customers.

Please feel free to respond, I'm genuinely curious about why people have defended PI in this manner. Is it a sense of loyalty? Consumer-apathy? Have people used this argument in relation to other games? Have we become like the abuser's family that just wants to cover the bruisers and tell the wife to stop making him angry?

I'm feel similarly [about these defensive statements], especially since that defensive attitude does not take into consideration the people who are new to Paradox and have no idea about buggy releases. I saw a few such types ask about refunds, and I have not seen them on the forum since.

Its hard to attract new users with this manner of release.
 
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We're not gonna even look at designing an expansion until we have a game that most people are satisfied with.

+1

Common sense prevails.
 
We're not gonna even look at designing an expansion until we have a game that most people are satisfied with.

Excellent. As to why I buy Paradox based on reputation rather than reviews, that's because reviewers have always given P'dox games far lower scores than they deserved (although they may have been playing vanilla versions!). If Paradox manage to patch the game to the point where it runs much faster than today, I'll buy it. My system ran EU3 fairly well, but cannot run the HOI3 demo at much more than a snail's pace - barring code optimisation there therefore is no point me buying the game until I can afford/be bothered to upgrade my computer (a high-spec laptop in 2007).

Expansion packs should add new features to the game, although I think the economic stuff Brunius mentions above is excessive, but they should add more than modified versions of the same game, they should include large conflicts which the player could not have played in the original.
 
I really don't know what all the "Timmies" are crying about? I have XP and my games run fine. From what I've been reading most people that are having "real" problems are use MS Vista. The fellow I purchase my PC's from has never sold one copy of Vista since it came out (and he's been in the PC buisness for over 15 yrs) because it's a piece of sh#t.

I find the IA works very well, the only supply problems I've had made sense consdering where the units were (never really had any supply issues even in N. Africa).

I'm looking forward to 1.3, but till then, I'm having a great time playing & learning this game..... so there! ;P
 
I really don't know what all the "Timmies" are crying about? ... I'm looking forward to 1.3, but till then, I'm having a great time playing & learning this game..... so there! ;P

No one is trying to convince you that your experience with the game is wrong. But your obvious intent is to marginalize the people who haven't had your experience. Your post has no constructive value.
 
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