INF to MOT to MEC Upgrades?

[Faenaris]

I just hope the INF-MOT-MEC chain isn't automatic (like the Light Arm to Arm was in HOI2). It would kinda be painful if you are a nation that is in desperate need of oil and all your infantry upgrades into fuel-beggers despite the lack of fuel. I know there is a "do not upgrade" button in the interface, but, one is bound to slip up somewhere when creating new infantry divisions.

[great_chairman]

Awesome. Here's an upgrade chain that I've come up with:

Infantry upgrades:

Mil >  Inf > Mot > Mec
             > Mar
             > Par > AirCav
             > Mtn

Cavalry upgrades:

Cav > ArmCav
    > AirCav

Armor upgrades:

LArm > Arm

All conversions are reversible. Division upgrading should IMO be the cost of reinforcing the division that will be the end result from x% strength (10-25 sounds good), with all experience preserved.

[Kahless]

ive added now an upgrading issue to the queue which contains
the implementation of an upgrade button for LArm to Arm and from Mil to Inf.
Cav-Mot-Mec cycle is way too complicated at the moment, maybe it gets in some day, but im promising nothing and i stick to that.

I hope the LArm to Arm Has a very high upgrade costs because tanks are expensive. And if its it to cheap this might be exploitable. I think the conversion cost of turning LARm to ARm should be 85% of the cost or creating Arm outright or something like that.

[Mattias]

Imho infantry, cavalry and armour should be kept as 3 different kind of units.

Mechanized and Armoured divisions are just two different kinds of armoured formations with different tank-versus infantry strength (the German post 1940 armoured units can be compared with modern mechanized divisions). They are trained to fight with (most of) their vehicles and are severely handicapped in areas with few roads and in difficult terrain and cities.

In AoD - because of the lack of brigade-system as in HoI 3 - it’s impossible to model increases or decreases of the number of tanks versus infantry as it was done historically, because if realistic it has to be possible to do it both ways – both kinds of formations still exist in parallel today in most armies and are remixed to suit different needs (and budgets).

The gradual transformation in the 1930’s of a few “cavalry-divisions” equipped with armoured cars, light tanks and trucks could be modelled as a “semi-armoured” division at the first place in the armoured tech-tree (imho not in the mechanized tech-tree because all early armoured divisions were very tank heavy).

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Motorized or (foot) Infantry divisions are two kinds of infantry with different means of transportation (they ride in trucks or walk, bike etc.). They are trained to fight without vehicles (in 1939 as well as in 2009) and are handicapped in open terrain. Motorized units are also a bit handicapped in areas with few roads because their support-units are dependant of roads.

In AoD it might be possible to either model early motorized units as “semi-motorized” (like in the pre-war British, French or Dutch armies) at the first place in the motorized tech-tree (as with armour above) or to add a transport “brigade” to the (foot) inf. To work well the latter has to be compatible with at least one more brigade as well as used by the AI witch makes it more difficult to implement.

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Cavalry is a bit trickier because in most armies they were used as scouts in company or battalion-sized units. In this role they were in deed mainly motorized with jeeps and/or light armoured vehicles in most armies.

In AoD however we have them as independent divisions and in this role they are infantrymen transported by horses, especially useful in difficult terrain without good infrastructure. Contrary to popular belief this kind of units weren’t all transformed to armoured units but to light infantry as well, still using horses in the 1960’s and later motorized with light unarmoured tracked vehicles with extreme terrain crossing abilities, even on snow.

If the historical semi-motorized units are modelled as “pre armoured” as explained above the rest can be kept as cavalry/light infantry (imho they might be renamed to avoid confusion) and be modernized with new tech upgrades, filling the gap between the highly specialized and expensive mountaineers and plain infantry.

Imho cavalry/light infantry might be modelled as brigades or “half-divisions (together with paras and mountain troops) to reflect their common use in smaller formations and partly compensate for their high cost but making it unattractive to deploy them as plain infantry. /M

[HJ Tulp]

ive added now an upgrading issue to the queue which contains
the implementation of an upgrade button for LArm to Arm and from Mil to Inf.
Cav-Mot-Mec cycle is way too complicated at the moment, maybe it gets in some day, but im promising nothing and i stick to that.

Hmmmm, a bit disappointing to be honest. LArm to ARM is already in and MIL to INF isn't really needed if you ask me. Militia is never intended as the principle unit. INF to MOT and MOT to MEC are essential if you ask me.

[LeeDub]

Hmmmm, a bit disappointing to be honest. LArm to ARM is already in and MIL to INF isn't really needed if you ask me. Militia is never intended as the principle unit. INF to MOT and MOT to MEC are essential if you ask me.

And now LArm to Arm is optional, as it should be, with LArm formations still present in later years of the war. Mil to Inf is useful for China and USSR. The Inf to Mot to Mec chain is still in the air, so it might make it in anyway, hopefully.

I can just picture a humble Militia division surviving whole campaigns, ending the war as a distinguished, elite Mechanised unit...

[Gigalocus]

CAV already transforms into helicopters down the line, so that whouldnt make sense. I agree with you that MOT and MEC shouldnt be capable of turning into ARM. Thats just senseless.

In the US cavalry units generally became airmobile units. But in the British army Cavalry divisions and regiments became armoured. So its not totally unrealistic.

[Kahless]

In the US cavalry units generally became airmobile units. But in the British army Cavalry divisions and regiments became armoured. So its not totally unrealistic.

I think your missing a few decades the last US Calvary Charge (and use of calvary in Combat) was 1941 in Luzon.

The Air Cavalry was formed on 16 June 1965, when the U.S. Army received Department of Defense authorization to organize the First Cavalry Division (Airmobile).

There is a 24 year gap.

[Gigalocus]

I think your missing a few decades the last US Calvary Charge (and use of calvary in Combat) was 1941 in Luzon.

The Air Cavalry was formed on 16 June 1965, when the U.S. Army received Department of Defense authorization to organize the First Cavalry Division (Airmobile).

There is a 24 year gap.

I mean name wise Whereas the US cavalry regiments eventually found their way into the Airmobile, British cavalry regiments eventually found their way into fully fledged armoured regiments.

[great_chairman]

IMO, MIL-INF-MOT-MEC is the single most important chain. As for CAV to AIRCAV, Arma goes all the way to '67, IIRC, and helos were already in use in Korea, so it's not implausible at all for full Air Cav Regiments to be formed in the 50s. Plus it does fit the Cavalry's traditional role, that of recon, raiding, and fast reinforcement. There's a reason why we don't say 'the Infantry has arrived'...

[Mattias]

... As for CAV to AIRCAV, Arma goes all the way to '67, IIRC, and helos were already in use in Korea, so it's not implausible at all for full Air Cav Regiments to be formed in the 50s. Plus it does fit the Cavalry's traditional role, that of recon, raiding, and fast reinforcement. There's a reason why we don't say 'the Infantry has arrived'...

Imho Air Cavalry shouldn't be present at all in the 1950's because we use divisions in AoD, not battalions.

IRL The French, British and USA experimented with battalion-sized helicopter borne units (~1/10 of a division) in the middle of the 1950's and the US started to research "Air Cavalry" in 1962-63. It was first used 1965, but still only in battalion-sized units.

It should probably not be in the game att all, because even today the US only has one full helicopter-borne division, and IMHO it's use can be fairly well abstracted by the use of paratroopers. /M