Megathread : Technologies in Victoria 2

Grosshaus said:

Already in Victoria 1 with the inventions the impact of player on technology gain was much less than in comparable games and more realistic. I agree that the triggers for inventions should be more advanced taking into account more factors than just year in MTTH

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Perhaps having a higher chance to fire if neighboring countries already have that invention? Additionally, countries with Laissez-Faire governments could have a higher chance of getting inventions than countries with interventionists governments, since Laissez-Faire promotes competition, and thus entrepreneurship and innovation.

I certainly hope they keep the inventions for Victoria 2, though. They're pretty unique.

Id realy like to see a system in which the player only takes a guiding role and does not have direct control of the research capabilities of his country.

I guess the new engine allows for quite a bit of decissions, modifiers and data that can affect the research in particular areas.

Also there should be quite distinctive fields of research that are affected differently by certain player decissions.

Military research (both naval and land), should be heavily influenced by military funding and actual combat giving bonuses to the various military fields of research ranging from communication, officers training, doctrine and weapons.

Industrial research should have a strong connection to the way your economy works. A laizes faire economy might be a good base for indurstrial inventions but industrial base and governmental decissions and subsidies might as well factor in.

Basic research should represent scientific advancement. It might be the basis for any other technical developments in later game stages. Though its findings probably will travel around the world quite fast as during this time there already was some kind of scientific community. Beeing a forerunner of basic research might still give a country bonuses in the aplication of these breakthroughs as it houses the brightests of scientists of its time (giving bonuses to practical research and prestige and further fuelling future basic research). This type of research probably has the strongest connection to the state as most of the research probably would be conducted in Universities funded by the respecitve states.


Two things that should not be research:
Cultural development should be very much defined by the composition of your population and its ability and willingness to invest in cultural goods. In the end its not research but the change of culture itsself. The political and societal change might factor in as well. Even technology should have an effect on the cultural development.

Societal development:
This should too not be under direct player control. Wheter the population develops the basics of a class conflict theory or not is realy up to the player actions not to the player developing a "revolution and counterrevolution" tech (only because he needs to to get to other techs).



Spread of technology:
Within the civilised wordl:
Industrial and military developments probably should spread slowly but steadily though should be affected by certain events. For example fighting against an enemy that employs a new type of successful tactic might lead to discovering this type of technology (copying successful applications). There should be quite a number of checks of wheter a country is capable of adapting a new tech. Copying is not always possible for example when Country A lacks the needed precission tools to produce the captured rifles of the enemy. Same goes with strategies and tactics associated with those weapons. Other countries may get the oportunity to send military observers to a conflict giving them information and experience with new tactics (%+ on reserach in these fields or even copying them outright).

Industrial research spread should be dependent on geographic distance, cultural and trade ties and diplomatic situation. A technology invented in one german minor state might spread pretty quickly with the inventing company employing it at their factory in the neighbouring state the next day. A research breakthrough in Great Brittain might take a quite bit longer before it is introduced in Russia.

TBH, I think the HOI III Tech format is much better suited to Viki than it is for HOI III itself. However, tech in Viki needs to be more diverse in focus than scope. What I'd like to see is something like this:

Multiple Leadership Focuses similiar to HOI III, but breakout by focus rather than application:
Officers-directly impacts unit cohesion, military tech, military doctrines, and national unity(Coup attempts)
Industrialists-directly impacts factory capacities/production, production and some military techs, national unity fights as the lowman in Aristocratic/landbased countries or fights against the people in industrialized countries), and policy(laws)
Political Leaders-directly impacts diplomacy, government tech, and national unity/policy
Spies-self explanitory, could also impact government techs and national unity/policy
Artists-boosts national prestige, society tech, and national unity

This layout I think would be great in Viki because you can guide your country's focus that impacts every aspect of the game. You could have an overall "resource" called education or something, and split it out amoung the focuses and have caps based on current government and laws. This gives a much more realistic feeling to tech and eliminate the guessing game on research/inventions in Viki.

Also, by having different "classes" impact your technological focus, you are also dictated national priorities which could directly tie into your laws and the way you govern (a nation that is agri based cannot and should not have lots of industrialists). Gives a very deep and broad impact to the game while using a simplified interface.

And ofcourse, more intermediate techs, and multiple research (1 in each category or something directly related to resources dedicated).

i dont agree that a clear planed technology board like in HoI is a good idea, the erratic and oft unexpected and Invention centred advancement in Victoria was pretty brilliant and unique to the game and the knowing the next things on the chain isnt good with a game with more than a decades time span.
The Leadership allocation might be alright but i wouldnt suffer the rest from HoI. If the system youve got is good why abandon it for a pale imitation of something not nearly as good to start with.

Orinsul said:

i dont agree that a clear planed technology board like in HoI is a good idea, the erratic and oft unexpected and Invention centred advancement in Victoria was pretty brilliant and unique to the game and the knowing the next things on the chain isnt good with a game with more than a decades time span.
The Leadership allocation might be alright but i wouldnt suffer the rest from HoI. If the system youve got is good why abandon it for a pale imitation of something not nearly as good to start with.

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I agree that the time period was much more fluid in various ways, but the ability to effectively represent them in Viki was very difficult, at least in my opinion/experience. I played as France, Germany, the USA and each time developing the civic/cultural techs was near impossible to cultivate the prestige from the advancements.

Id say that there realy should be a two layered system. One that is mostly hidden to the player which determines things like advancement in "fundamental sciences", cultural evolution and socioeconomic developments.

And building on these there should be more practical inventions that the player can influence more directly.


On the one side you have a system that "just progresses" depending on the overall shape of your society, that is influenced by trade, foreign relations, socioeconomic situation and so on (and maybe player decissions like funding a new university - think Magna Mundi like decissions for EU3).

And then you have the practical level that has prerequesites in the hidden theoretical and ideological level.
This level may have a direct research component in which the state directly invests into new inventions or an indirect decission/law based system that grants subsidies or regulates patents/licenses for private inventions.

What I realy dont want to see in Vicky 2 is a tech system that lets you research "Romanticism" or "Revolution and Counterrevolution". Those should be developments that happen in the background. They should materialize in ideological and cultural modifiers and act as triggers for certain events (like the publishing of Karl Marxes Capital or the latest work of Strauss beeing premiered in your capital).

To not spam one with messages a monthly report (maybe a nicely done newspaper could be an interesting tool). It would realy be a nice gimmick for immersion. Even as the guiding spirit one wants to sit back and read the Sunday newspaper to get up to date with world events - its nicer than having a popup tell you that Romantic Music just happened to you and you get 100 prestige from it.

I would really like if culture and cultural philosphies was handled seperately form technology. Ideas like Marxism, Liberalism, Impressionism, Avant-Garde etc should spread depending on demographics, not because a group of scientists sat down and worked them out.

How about this: Once certain triggers are hit, Marxism, for example, can occur in one country, and spread to others, with its associated effects on the population. It should start in a country with a high disparity of wealth, plenty of craftsmen and a decent proportion of the population working in factories. Once it triggers, it spreads depending on militancy, consciousness, etc, with no regard to borders.

The same system could be used for most political idea, and maybe philisophical and artistic ones too.

Edit: Great minds think alike, zelvik

One of the big drawback in HOI 3 and Vicky 1 was that the player automatically maximised research every time.

The cost to benefit of education in Vicky just made it a no brainer to max education and in HOI3 you always go for the largest education establishment.

University should be expensive to build (capital cost) and the amount of funding should produce a non-linear return, i.e. The first 10% of funding would get the smartest 1% of your population into university, this would give 2 (research points leadership points or whatever) but the next 10% of funding would bring slightly less smart people in and only give 1.8 (research points leadership points or whatever).
This would help make the amount of research a strategic choice rather then always just maxing it.

The cost to benefit of education in Vicky just made it a no brainer to max education and in HOI3 you always go for the largest education establishment.

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I dont think its just a matter of cost - benefit (allthough I would say that while your concept might be nice for a gamemechanic it probably does not reflect the way education works, if anything a higher investment in education probably yields proportionatly more educated people than less - basically because you have to fund some base infrastructure like school buildings, museums, faculties etc., adding to those is probably cheaper than having to fund the base infrastructure).

And I dont think a one dimensional approach suffices for the timeframe. The HOI approach does not fit with a century spanning tech system because in HOI there are clear goals for research - bigger guns, faster planes, thicker armor. The basic concepts are at least theoretically known, the 19th century did not see this determined approach to technological development - the state did not have that much control on research and invetions as it did with the massive state funded military research during and prior to WW2. The state itself was hardly involved in such matters until the 2nd or 3rd year of World War 1.

Up until then you had contests by the military or a governmental entity to present a technical solution to problem x. Granting a patent and some price money.

Laws could simulate ending child labour, people staying in college so not joining the workforce, people getting out of military service etc... there should be real penalties to going the full whack on education. I suspect the differing literacy rates for different POPs may somehow be connected to this

How about this: Once certain triggers are hit, Marxism, for example, can occur in one country, and spread to others, with its associated effects on the population. It should start in a country with a high disparity of wealth, plenty of craftsmen and a decent proportion of the population working in factories. Once it triggers, it spreads depending on militancy, consciousness, etc, with no regard to borders.

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YES. I think Art/Ideologies should happen in similar way as EU3 Reformation. Tricky thing will be coming up with a set of triggers which are intuitive and possible to affect through player action. For example, Marxism would emerge in a Region with a lot of Craftsmen. Some things would make it more likely (bad wages, no health care...etc) and some less likely (good wages, pensions...etc). It would then spread, either country-wise or province-wise along infrastructure routs. That'd be great

As far as practical Research, I really like the HOI3 approach.

I really like that there are separate proficiency ratings for different tech groups. This allows for representing places like Russia, with decent military tech but lagging economically.

I really like the leadership points-allocation scheme. The intellectual-type PoPs would contribute leadership points which can be allocated to research things.

You could use the Theory/Practical of HOI3 in combination with the POP system.

Example of a country with 1 POP in 1884:

Clerk (Self-Employed in a City, or a "Company"*)
Literacy: Very High (0.99)
Theory: Economical Theory - Basic (0.23)
Practical: Economics - Professional (0.54)

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(I'm assuming, if you have a country not spending a lot of money on statistics that: 0-0.15 Low; 0.16-0.33 Basic; 0.33-0.67 Professional; 0.68-1.0 Expert)

From this, country statistics are calculated according to the accumulated Theoretical and Practical knowledge of your POPs.

* I'd advocate that there are "Organizations" in the game, similar to "Factories" but providing services (as well as ownership of "Factories" and possibly other "Organizations")

I agree with the following excellent points raised:

1) multiple research threads
2) research speed tied to literacy rate / proportion of certain pops.

I liked the following aspects of research in Vicky 1:
1) A long term view to research investment in the form of investment on population education and improving literacy rate
2) The fact that completing research does not immediately give you benefits, but must allow inventions to fire before there are practical benefits to your economy / country

I did not like the following aspects of research in Vicky 1:
1) Couldn't understand the intentions of the developers in having research points separate from research speed. Also having 10 research points waiting around and immediately 'discovering' a new research after trading with another nation also did not make sense to me.
2) Had to choose between Jominian vs Claustwitzian / heroic vs superior crew doctrines at the very beginning, without any information on what the heck it did, with such wide ranging and long term effects plus inability to modify it.

I suggest that the best way to proceed with research in Vicky 2 follows: There should still be the 5 major areas of research (Army, Navy, Commerce, Culture, Industry). These will progress simultaneously but may be at different speeds similar to EU3.

Unlike EU3, however, the player can choose the research in each area with the exception of culture. For instance, Prussia could choose post-napoleonic thought for Army, clipper design for Navy, stock market for commerce and publishing industry for industry. What cultural advances take place is a little random, influenced by the government type, the cultural advancements of surrounding countries, govt policies and pop issues.

The speed at which discoveries are made are dependent on the literacy level, investment on education, ?certain buildings (perhaps there will be decision to not only allow building of factories but also universities). There will also be separate modifiers for each different research area.

For example (in addition to literacy level and educational investment)

Army: officer literacy / consciousness; army tradition (or equivalent if implemented); commander trait; minister trait (if implemented); govt war policy (pro military faster than pacifism)

Navy: officer literacy / consciousness; navy tradition (or equivalent if implemented); comander trait; minister trait (if implemented); govt war policy

Commerce: Capitalist literacy / consciousness; clerk literacy / consciousness; recent stock market crash; export / import level; minister trait; trade policies; economic policies

Industry: Capitalist literacy /consciousnes; clerk literacy / consciousness; minister level; trade and economic policies

Culture: Clergy literacy / consciousness ... can't think of anything else

After a research is obtained, it will be similar to Vicky 1: there will usually be no immediate benefit, but inventions have to fire for the majority.

With regard to trading of research, once a transaction is made, future research on the transacted field progresses at 200-300% ordinary speed. Culture can be traded (representing cultural exchange, professorial visits etc) but the player still cannot choose the specific cultural research. However, once a cultural research has been traded for, the chance of it being researched next greatly increases.


Advantages: More flexibility; concurrent research; more accurately reflects the player's country; ?more rewarding; ?more fun; ?more realistic

Disadvantages: More complex; strain on AI; frustrating if player cannot choose cultural advance;

What do you guys think?

Sirveri said:

This isn't 100% on topic, but heavily correlates to the topic.

What is the PLAYER, in Vicky?
It is not the government, since governments get deposed of quite often.

I personally consider it to be a sort of zeitgeist of the nation, a guiding hand of a guardian angle, or Gods favor.

With that in mind, it wouldn't be the state telling people to research romanticism, but people would just feel an overwhelming urge to do so.

That said, some points I do agree with, and seeing the HoI3 tech system, I believe something similar, just with less combat oriented techs and more civil/religious/blue sky techs would be pretty awesome. The real question is how a nation could stimulate leadership, and would the game turn into yet another eurocentric romp that most pdox games devolve into.

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This is an important observation too, but the original ideas here are also great!

Is funny some people here mentions Romanticism. Well neither that nor Realism, nor Impressionalism belong under a research system at all. It should be there as an event that triggers ofc, since it was important epochs in culture. But thats what it is, its the development of the arts. Im excited about how they decide to implement arts and stuff into the game, because so much cool stuff happened about arts in that age!

So what i hope for is that you as player or zeitgeist or whatever you consider yourself have the option to steer your country in one direction or another. e.g. the old EU politcal sliders or similar, but perhaps more abstracted and perhaps not sliders that you push. But there could be a polarization between freedom of the people or serfism which was an important factor regarding this. Implementation of these arts "techs" is a difficult one i guess, but imo you shouldn't research it but obtain it thru events if you get to a certain level of individual freedom for these arts. (eg. counciusness of certain pop types in Vicky terms perhaps?) Craftsmen for example can be very creative if treated right I believe. Well its just my head spinning about this cuz im so excited about this game! :rofl:

I think a combination of HoI3's Leadership system and EU3's Ruler system could provide a good model.

Rather than HoI's Research/Officers/Diplomacy/Intel divisions Vicky would need something more like Technology, Education, Commerce/Industry, Military, Politics. Rulers/Ministers would provide modifiers to each field according to their interest. The player (representing the will/spirit of the nation?) must work with the base strengths of the nation modified by the transient bonuses of the ruler/government of the day.

The no-brainer of always increasing your base leadership becomes instead a balancing act - fall behind other nations in Commerce/Industry and you lose your share in trade. Fall behind in Military matters and risk costly defeats. Concentrate on both under the right Government to gain resources from new colonial empires, before switching to technological advances as the next government favours research. Realise a decade later that you still have Serfs as your base pop, while others have Educated Factory Workers due to their investment in Political systems and base Education.

The system would represent a combination of abstracted leading thinkers combined with political will. The player can guide the nation in general terms, but there will never be a single "right" solution as it will always depend on the situation and the government of the day.

It would be nice too see technology determined by your population demographics (and a bit of luck). Would elegantly solve the problem of tech rushing.

I must say that I really love Vicky's tech system: It's my favourite in all the Paradox games. Researching a general idea and then getting a bunch of specific inventions is brilliant.

I also love the cultural techs.

Vicky's tech system was always gonna be gamey and an abstraction far from reality. How else could you research Impressionism?

I personally wouldn't mind contending with the old system, as an abstraction of what the society's focus was at any time (militarist thought or a cultural flourishing perhaps).

But if someone figures out how to make tech spreads based on your demographics, budget, geography and political system work, then it would certainly make for good immersion.

On another issue though, there were lots of complaints about Euro-centric techs with Vicky. Wonder if the same would occur this time?

All social and cultural changes are as a result of economic change anyway, so they shouldn't be under the player's control at all.
The ability to build universities that have an expensive upkeep would seem like a way of letting the industrialised world stay ahead of uncivs without the annoying arbitrary research nerf. It'd also allow more specialisation in countries, like say cheaper universities vs cheaper factories.
Research has been one of those things that I think Vicky 1 did pretty much perfectly, with the exception that as a great power you'd often run out of things to research by about 1890. I don't think too much should change, apart from removing cultural/social "technologies" as I said earlier.

More choices like Slim/broad hulls or Clausewitz/Jominan would be nice.