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Thread: Megathread : Technologies in Victoria 2

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    Megathread : Technologies in Victoria 2

    First of all, hello! And many thanks to Paradox for developing the sequel to one of its most interesting games!

    I have some comments on the technology system. I did'nt like it at all as it stood in Victoria 1, for many reasons:
    - you could develop only one technology at a time. This is unrealistic, as a country's scientists would work in their respective fields. You can not suddenly oblige all your scientists, mathematicians, biologists, chemists, etc, to work on Romanticism!
    - everything depended on the State. But in reality, no political leader ever gave the order to start developing Romanticism or Communism.
    -there seemed to be no link between different countries' knowledge. In reality, once a technology was discovered in one country of Europe (say steam power in England), this knowledge would spread out slowly to neighbouring countries, particularly to the most advanced countries.
    -research progress was proportionate to your country's education spending, which encompasses two very different things: primary education (teach your people reading and calculation), and university (which concerns only a small part of the population and research).

    So, I propose to change the system in this way:

    1/ Many technologies can be researched in the same time.

    2/ Research can be partly oriented or stimulated by the State, but not completely. Independant, parallel research will exist, depending on the country's general educational level.

    3/ Knowledge will slowly spread out between neighbouring countries. If your neighbours know this technology, this will help your own research, depending on how long they have known this technology.

    4/ Different fields of research will progress depending on different factors. For instance, university funding and college education will help in 'natural sciences' (maths, biology, physics...); industrialization will help in 'applied technologies'; army training and officers will help in military technologies...

    5/ This one is more or less independant from the above, but it would be a nice addition to allow the player to build universities in its most developed provinces. These universities would stimulate research.

    Anyway, good luck to the developing team!

  2. #2
    Very good points, all of them. Research shouldn't be all in the government's hand, but the player should still have a lot of influence on it. Maybe having inventions depend on other triggers besides prestige and death date could take care of this. So that the state can order the research of breach-loading guns, but unless you had good training, tactics and officers you'd get very little at first (apart from increased supply costs).

    I think the diverse cultural movements (Romanticism etc.) were pretty close to this concept already. You'd get almost nothing and only when your artists got going you got the prestige and sometimes you got almost none, because they didn't start early enough.
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    1/ Many technologies can be researched in the same time.

    2/ Research can be partly oriented or stimulated by the State, but not completely. Independant, parallel research will exist, depending on the country's general educational level.

    3/ Knowledge will slowly spread out between neighbouring countries. If your neighbours know this technology, this will help your own research, depending on how long they have known this technology.

    4/ Different fields of research will progress depending on different factors. For instance, university funding and college education will help in 'natural sciences' (maths, biology, physics...); industrialization will help in 'applied technologies'; army training and officers will help in military technologies...

    5/ This one is more or less independant from the above, but it would be a nice addition to allow the player to build universities in its most developed provinces. These universities would stimulate research.
    Those are all very good ideas! Number one is especially important, you should definately be able to reserach one thing in each category simultaneously. Being able to build universities that stimulate reserahc would be a great ddition to the game (yet another thing from Civilization that could be used in Victoria). As for two and three, thouhg those would increase realism, I would rather keep control of what I research and who I share it with, but that's just me. Number four is good, I think it should be based on POPs in your country, so having lots of officers should aid in military development, lots of clergymen in culture, clerks in industry, etc. But only middle- and upper- class should affect this (i.e. craftsmen should not help industrial research).

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    This isn't 100% on topic, but heavily correlates to the topic.

    What is the PLAYER, in Vicky?
    It is not the government, since governments get deposed of quite often.

    I personally consider it to be a sort of zeitgeist of the nation, a guiding hand of a guardian angle, or Gods favor.

    With that in mind, it wouldn't be the state telling people to research romanticism, but people would just feel an overwhelming urge to do so.

    That said, some points I do agree with, and seeing the HoI3 tech system, I believe something similar, just with less combat oriented techs and more civil/religious/blue sky techs would be pretty awesome. The real question is how a nation could stimulate leadership, and would the game turn into yet another eurocentric romp that most pdox games devolve into.
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    The real question is how a nation could stimulate leadership
    I guess some kind of formula based on how many wealthy pop's a nation has (ie how many peole with time on their hands ) combined somehow with literacy and state support of education would give a realistic "rating" for a country.

    Perhaps the private sector could be modelled by the amount or proportion of private companies, and competition?

    In general I agree with the original poster that it would be nice to see an expanded system, with more projects and the possibility of simultaneous research. Basing it on the Hoi3 system would not be a bad thing!

  6. #6
    read johans post initally vic 2 will run on the HOI3 engine which means technology may end up being as it is in HOI3 , combat experience and units produced will give a bonus modifier to focus and gain benefits from tech sepcailisation, economic and political and ohter techs will be interesting though will need to wait for the first screenshots i guess

  7. #7
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    Maybe it would be time to revamp the concept of technology research.

    The state does not research, but puts into motion a series of reforms, decisions and processes that use the newest technologies available.

    Military tech depends on your number of officers, military tradition (that raises through war but also through civilized status and the existence of military academies), certain reforms and number of soldiers. For example, the Zulu state would gain more military tech because it would be a highly-militarized society, it would employ war at any possible moment and it would have the necessary reforms put in place. Of course, it would exist a neighbour bonus...

    Naval tech depends on your number of officers, naval tradition (that raises through naval battles, but also through civilized status and the existence of naval academies), certain reforms and number of ships.

    Economy tech depends on your number of capitalists, civilized status, existence of universities of economics, certain reforms and number of factories.

    Industry tech depends on your number of clerks, civilized status, existence of academies of science, certain reforms and number of factories.

    Cultural tech depends on your number of clerks, civilized status, existence of academies of fine arts, certain reforms and sudden appearances of cultural trends, which of course would have, for a while, a polarizing and beneficial effect.

    Now, with this in mind, the state's capabilities are not to research, but to use these things.

    Military tech would lead to: slow upgrade of divisions (stats wise, organization, morale), the possibility of building other types of divisions etc...

    Naval tech would lead to: slow upgrade of ships (stats wise, organization, morale), the possibility of building other types of divisions etc...

    Economy tech would lead to: better chances for promotion to the capitalist class, better efficiency, the possibility of employing all sorts of free-market/social-democrat/populist/socialist reforms etc...

    Industry tech would lead to: more types of factories, better chances for promotion to the worker status, better output etc...

    Cultural tech would lead to: better civilized scores, more national spirit/morale, the possibility of employing reforms for the unity of the country (think education, language standardization etc...)...

    Of course, there can be tens of effects but this is the general idea...
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    Cultural tech and research

    I wonder if it would be a good idea to include cultural tech not as something that you can research, instead it is discovered in a society (and can spread from there afterwards) when certain conditions are met.
    For instance, Collectivism will only appear in a society that has a decent amount of industrialization, has at least some elements of liberalism, low living standards for its workers with a higher chance of appearing if the lower classes has higher counciusness. Having collectivism "unlock" socialism as an ideology would be ideal.
    Spread of cultural tech would depend more on trade relations with a nation that already has it. Civilized or uncivilized status should have little, if any, effect on how fast it spreads. A society should be able to learn cultural techs by spread even if they do not meet the requirements, so Russia is unlikely to discover collectivism by itself but it can be spread to it and popularized once there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ollobrains View Post
    read johans post initally vic 2 will run on the HOI3 engine which means technology may end up being as it is in HOI3 , combat experience and units produced will give a bonus modifier to focus and gain benefits from tech sepcailisation, economic and political and ohter techs will be interesting though will need to wait for the first screenshots i guess
    Victoria 1 used EU2 (Or to be more specific, EU1) engine, and it didn't have technology system anywhere close to its sisters, so... Your point is bit moot.

  10. #10
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    I like this idea.

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    It makes sense for that particular example but how would you extend it to the 'aesthetic' techs where economically backwards countries (I'm looking at you Russia) could still produce literary giants and remain on the cultural cutting edge for decades? Surely there's no reason why 'Avantgarde Art' (to give an example) must be discovered in an advanced industrial power?
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    In research, I agree with almost everything said here. But I like to keep one of Vicky's flavour in this area: difference between research and achievements. These should depend on certain circumstances (as factors that increase or decrease probability of achivement).

    And rather than just a prestige boost (as happened in lot of things in Victoria) should improve an area, "in exclusive" for a while for the country where the achievement has got, getting universal in a time, depending in tech level (prerequisites) and trade relations with the achiever.

    Two things must be taken in account IMHO:

    - First, the simulation of entrepeneurs in lot of areas (cultural, economical, industrial), by means of achievements, depending on luck, techs prerequisits and both market/efficient estate development (the two ways of industrialism in the era, American or British vs the Prussian)

    - Second, spread of innovations. Not just depending on "phisical" distances (like it happened in CK or EUIII, good point for the era, not so good in Victoria's timeframe) but on economic relations (trade agreements overall) and cultural/technical proximity.

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    I haz custom title! Temrek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComradeOm View Post
    Surely there's no reason why 'Avantgarde Art' (to give an example) must be discovered in an advanced industrial power?
    Assuming that it is correct, you can simply make the requirements not require industrialzation.

    The most important part of this idea is that it social techs have negative effects on nations. No ultra-liberal government would sponsor the research of collectivism for example, as it might make the workers want more rights.
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    I would like to see flavor names as in HOI for the cultural techs. Different tech levels would have the same effects, and some, like Nationalism and Imperialism, would have the same name for every country, but others would be given different names: A given cultural tech could be called "Phenomenology" for European countries but "May Fourth Movement Literature" for China, etc, to reflect differences in cultures.

  15. #15
    I like this idea very much.

    Cultural trends should not be dictated by the player, rather the other way round: you should have to respond to these unleashed forces. There are a whole host of variables the Victoria system provides that can model these in a plausible and, from a game perspective, entertaining manner.

    Perhaps one could try and stimulate the discovery of such techs by having a radical academic establishment (itself dependent on free speech, and so on). So there could be an element of player control to push things along, for example by choosing that establishment, having educated pops, high literacy, and so on.

    It also allows for, as the OP suggests, the spread of cultural ideas to places where they are more likely to find adherents. It also gives a new dimension to the game, and one that is realistic: as Czar, for example, you may not be interested in the bizarre new idea of "socialism" that has come from the thinkers in open Western societies (and certainly would not have clicked on box to research it ) but, oh my, it is certainly interested in you. So state repression and control of the press actually has value now, as you try to halt the propagation of dangerous thought. Or perhaps try to appease the chattering classes.
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    I too like this idea. Cultural "technologies" or "inventions" should emerge due to your policy choices which effect how your society develops. Perhaps it would also be tied into other societies through that sphere of influence system too (i.e. they are liberal and well-off, so why aren't we?). Moreover, ideas could spread between nations, though societies can be more open or closed to these new ideas depending somewhat on your ideologies.

  17. #17
    I didn't have time to play HOI3 a lot, but I like the idea of having leadership to redistribute for your nation. I think the technology system could be adapted from HOI3 to V2.

    As you say ashandresash, we could also keep Victoria 1's distinction between research and achievements, between theory and practice. I wonder if it wouldn't make the system too complicated, though...

  18. #18
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    Already in Victoria 1 with the inventions the impact of player on technology gain was much less than in comparable games and more realistic. I agree that the triggers for inventions should be more advanced taking into account more factors than just year in MTTH
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    I agree the playre plays a more guiding hand with his nation and it's people than a direct ruler. I think the research was pretty good in vicky, after 5 years, you'd have researched 5 techs which you could do with it being you recearch 5 techs at a time, each taking 5 years to complete.

    Also, EU3's technology system is very different than HoI3's, so don't count on vicky's being a carbon copy

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    i persoanlly thought that Technology was damn close to perfect and certainly better than HoI or EU both of which follow preset structures
    Victoria was the right mix between direction and random invention and really worked fine.
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