Are we going to have a completely brand new engine or EUIII style re-used engine?

[Delex]

Well I don't know CK that well, but between EU2, Vicky and HoI2 the flags of the armies were very similar. You could even just copy a flag from EU2 to Vicky, and it would work fine. And from Vicky to HoI2, the shields were very similar, although indeed the flags couldn't change in HoI2 . Still the way they were displayed was very similar (not talking about the actual flags themselves of course, that would be ridiculous).

Another similarity I just thought of was, IIRC, that in CK the armies were also represented by a single man, just like in EU2.



Well the map in EU3 looks completely different than in HoI3, don't you think?

I was a bit confused as to exactly which parts of the game you want the mechanics to count and which parts not. Because you also said that, apart from "graphics", "warfare, economic system, state" are completely different between CK, EU2, Vic, HoI2; but when talking about the map, suddenly how it works doesn't count anymore.

All in all, IMO, HoI3 is lot more similar to HoI2 than it is to EU3; and EU3 is a lot more similar to EU2 than it is to HoI3. Both in appearance, and in gameplay.



Yes that would suck, but I'm sure they won't do that, the mockup Johan posted looked quite good.

1.)Tell me something does my paradox avatar look in anyway similar to your paradox avatar (Considering the shape)? No? And about the flags, as i allready said, you cant change a flag in anyway for realistic resons, it would be unpractical.

2.)Yes it does look different, but the major reson for this is that the hoi 3 map is much bigger then the eu 3 map (Not to mention that it isnt even finished, just look at the shape of Bulgaria).

You must have missunderstood something. I said that they look totaly different in the aspects of warfare, economy, etc...(All games were totaly different in all aspects, graphics, warfare, economic system, state...). The map will allways look similar, cause it will always represent the same planet, so I cant say o man, the game is boring cause the map is always the same. But how it works is something which cant be taken for granted.

I disaggre, its more similar to EU 3, if not this thread woudnt be even opend.

[IndoEsia45]

I haven't read all the arguments here to properly reply the thread but the main thing I don't like from HoI3 (seeing from the demo viewpoints) is the doctrine used by Paradox. Games features will have to adjust with the engine capabilities and not the other way around. That's why we can see many same thing in HoI3 compared to EU3. There are just quite many features that is made to adjust with the current Clausewitz engine (like decision...etc).

Yes, it's not a clone. You have an air force in HoI3 and more complex divisional features but the EU3 feeling is still very strong. The performance is also slower than in HoI2. I don't know if in HoI3 there's still a ghost-fleet.

Now why we don't have an engine which can be changed overtime and improved to fit the future needs but it still can be re-used overtime like Europa engine?

[Delex]

aenariel-I think its a matter of you trying to present proof which isnt there. All the things you presented as a similarity where made for pratical resons, so you can overlook the situation better (And were present in every paradox game no matter the engine), but since you seem to have a better idea why dont you tell it? How would you make the interface more user friendly? You didnt show even one similarity between the games.

Taylor-You failed to present any proof which I was not able to counter properly, so I see no reson to accept a status quo.

IndoEsia45-Well you cant really say that it is a major change in HOI 3 from EU 3 that there is an airforce (Since there were no vheicles in existance in the EU 3 timeline). But as I already stated, if Victoria 2 is made, i hope it will be atleast made that way that the similarities wont be obvious.

[Taylor]

Taylor-You failed to represent any proof which i was not able to counter properly, so i see no reson to accept a status quo.

The reason for accepting a status quo would not be that we counter all of each other's arguments, but simply that it's pointless to continue. I'm not gonna convince you, you're not gonna convince me. I guess when I look at the games (I mean the old ones) I see mostly similarities, when you look at them you see mostly differences. There's no point in continuing, and furthermore, I think the Vic 2 forum isn't even the correct place to discuss this.

edit: reminds me of this.

[aenariel]

But as I already stated, if Victoria 2 is made, i hope it will be atleast made that way that the similarities wont be obvious.

Yes, but how? I see you going on and on that Vicky2 should be somehow different from EU3 and HoI3, but I see no concrete suggestions. What exactly do you find similar between the two forementioned games? And what exactly do you want that would make Vicky2 not look similar?

While we were trying to present proof the old games looked similar (and arguably worked similarly in many ways), I haven't seen much proof of how EU3 and HoI3 are similar, except for the interface, which, as you've said, doesn't really count much?

[aenariel]

and furthermore, I think the Vic 2 forum isn't even the correct place to discuss this.

Yes, since there's no actual suggestions on what should be made to make Vic2 not be "similar" as he says the other two games are.

[Delex]

Taylor-I dont need to convice you, I just need to counter every of your arguments so they lose weight, that is enough of a satisfaction for me. So by proposing an "agreement of dissagreeal", you are suggesting that you are "out of ammunition" and cant continue to support what you are claiming.

aenariel-On the start of the thread i have allready listed some of the similarites, which would have to be changed, so the games woudnt look similar (And I didnt even mention the interface). Its you who are claiming that the interface looks similar, which makes the games similar. I will repeat this as long you mnetion the interface as a similarity: It was made for gameplay resons and thus was present in all paradox games.

You really should read the whole thread before posting in it.

[IndoEsia45]

The reason for accepting a status quo would not be that we counter all of each other's arguments, but simply that it's pointless to continue. I'm not gonna convince you, you're not gonna convince me. I guess when I look at the games (I mean the old ones) I see mostly similarities, when you look at them you see mostly differences. There's no point in continuing, and furthermore, I think the Vic 2 forum isn't even the correct place to discuss this.

edit: reminds me of this.

If you do not like to argue then we have a thread door opening here. Please do not make the thread locked as other user may proceed into the thread and say something. If you're finished then okay others may come in to put a suggestion. Please do remember that this the forum does not consists of only three or us.

aenariel-I think its a matter of you trying to present proof which isnt there. All the things you presented as a similarity where made for pratical resons, so you can overlook the situation better (And were present in every paradox game no matter the engine), but since you seem to have a better idea why dont you tell it? How would you make the interface more user friendly? You didnt show even one similarity between the games.

Taylor-You failed to present any proof which I was not able to counter properly, so I see no reson to accept a status quo.

IndoEsia45-Well you cant really say that it is a major change in HOI 3 from EU 3 that there is an airforce (Since there were no vheicles in existance in the EU 3 timeline). But as I already stated, if Victoria 2 is made, i hope it will be atleast made that way that the similarities wont be obvious.

I agree with you Delex, Europa Universalis III and Rome engine should be for themselves. But for HoI3 and in this case Vicky 2, I just hope they will make a completely brand new engine or at least hide EU3 feeling environments. The unconvincing thing is how they are going to model all of the industrial and population in just one engine without stripping some of the features we see in Vicky? HoI3 has its research team stripped of because the game like I said before has to adjust with the engine...

[Ciaphas Cain]

HoI3 has its research team stripped of because the game like I said before has to adjust with the engine...

No, this and the decision system you mentioned earlier have nothing to do with the engine.

[aenariel]

aenariel-On the start of the thread i have allready listed some of the similarites, which would have to be changed, so the games woudnt look similar (And I didnt even mention the interface). Its you who are claiming that the interface looks similar, which makes the games similar. I will repeat this as long you mnetion the interface as a similarity: It was made for gameplay resons and thus was present in all paradox games.

You really should read the whole thread before posting in it.

You mean this post?

I just hate HOI 3 for beeing an acctual clone of EU 3. Its so obvious, if I let out the map, then there are loads of things where you can see that there is no real difference.

-The cursor (The only difference is the color)
-Occupied provinces (The same thing as in EU 3)
-The spirties (The same one man standing for a whole army)
-Bugs based on EU 3 (You can be at the same time an ally and at war, which could happen in EU 3. Like if 2 nations are at war and both guarantee a country which is attacked will end up being allies still at war).

The cursor is part of the interface. Occupied provinces worked the same way since I can remember in all PI games (never played HoI2), unless you mean something else than what I'm thinking. The sprites are part of the interface. And "bugs based on EU3" are bugs based on the engine upon which the game was made, so I can't really see how could they change it drastically, maybe other than fixing them?

[IndoEsia45]

No, this and the decision system you mentioned earlier have nothing to do with the engine.

Well I've seen one of the EU3 expansion offers a law or a decision to make for the country and province and it's EU3 uses Clausewitz engine.

[Taylor]

Taylor-I dont need to convice you, I just need to counter every of your arguments so they lose weight, that is enough of a satisfaction for me. So by proposing an "agreement of dissagreeal", you are suggesting that you are "out of ammunition" and cant continue to support what you are claiming.

But you didn't even counter all of my arguments.

Here it is again. You asked for a single similarity between the old games. I'm going to give you one, and you can't say it doesn't count because you used the same similarity between EU3 and HoI3.

Both in CK and in EU2, armies are represented by sprites of a single man. What's more, their appearance depends on where they're from.

So, there's your similarity, case closed.

[Ciaphas Cain]

Well I've seen one of the EU3 expansion offers a law or a decision to make for the country and province and it's EU3 uses Clausewitz engine.

But it's not a limitation of the engine but a design choice.

[Delex]

You mean this post?

The cursor is part of the interface. Occupied provinces worked the same way since I can remember in all PI games (never played HoI2), unless you mean something else than what I'm thinking. The sprites are part of the interface. And "bugs based on EU3" are bugs based on the engine upon which the game was made, so I can't really see how could they change it drastically, maybe other than fixing them?

You never even played the games im mentioning and you really claiming similarites between the games GTFO (Joke)?

I have never commented the usage of the cursor, but its looks. It looks 100% the same except for the color. All interfaces look different in all paradox games in case you didnt notice (Exept that they are located on similar locations).

The interface stands for everything except the map and everything whats located on it.

In hoi 2 when you occupied the province it became a part of your country (Fully), except that you could see that its occupied, in hoi 3 you get those lines trough the province but you can see who the original owner is (Same as in EU 3).

Those bugs just show even more that on who the game is based upon.

[IndoEsia45]

But you didn't even counter all of my arguments.

Here it is again. You asked for a single similarity between the old games. I'm going to give you one, and you can't say it doesn't count because you used the same similarity between EU3 and HoI3.

Both in CK and in EU2, armies are represented by sprites of a single man. What's more, their appearance depends on where they're from.

So, there's your similarity, case closed.

Ok, case closed for you sir.

If you don't like to be in this thread please, respect us who thinks in a different point of view.

[Delex]

But you didn't even counter all of my arguments.

Here it is again. You asked for a single similarity between the old games. I'm going to give you one, and you can't say it doesn't count because you used the same similarity between EU3 and HoI3.

Both in CK and in EU2, armies are represented by sprites of a single man. What's more, their appearance depends on where they're from.

So, there's your similarity, case closed.

Thats your only argument lol? So desprate . Yes seems i overlooked it.

There is a major difference here.
CK spirites varied by area (So there were many variations)
EU 2 spirties were vearied by culture

So you see a major difference.

[ZmajOgnjeniVuk]

In hoi 2 when you occupied the province it became a part of your country (Fully), except that you could see that its occupied, in hoi 3 you get those lines trough the province but you can see who the original owner is (Same as in EU 3).

The main difference being the stripes, or the lack of them. Which again, is a design decision rather than an engine limitation. If you haven't noticed, there are mods that change they way the occupied provinces appear on map.

[aenariel]

You never even played the games im mentioning and you really claiming similarites between the games GTFO (Joke)?

I have never commented the usage of the cursor, but its looks. It looks 100% the same except for the color. All interfaces look different in all paradox games in case you didnt notice (Exept that they are located on similar locations).

The interface stands for everything except the map and everything whats located on it.

In hoi 2 when you occupied the province it became a part of your country (Fully), except that you could see that its occupied, in hoi 3 you get those lines trough the province but you can see who the original owner is (Same as in EU 3).

Those bugs just show even more that on who the game is based upon.

I only said I never played HoI2, I've played all other games.

Wow, so having stripes instead of simply colouring it differently (in Vicky1, Eu2, CK when you occupy a province it doesn't become part of your country, although it is coloured the same) is really a big difference?
Having the cursor look the same is really that important? It's a cursor. What else should it look like? All you're pointing out are interface similarities!

Of course the bugs are similar, if they're caused by the engine! It's the same engine!

I'm not going to discuss this any further... there's really no point.

[Delex]

The main difference being the stripes, or the lack of them. Which again, is a design decision rather than an engine limitation. If you haven't noticed, there are mods that change they way the occupied provinces appear on map.

Dont start with mods here, its not a part of the dissucssion.

[ZmajOgnjeniVuk]

CK spirites varied by area (So there were many variations)
EU 2 spirties were vearied by culture

So you see a major difference.

Actually the CK sprites are also based on culture (Byzantine, Arab, East/West Slavic, Celtic etc).