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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by MannheimCouncil View Post
    Are pops even in the game? I wouldn't be averse to see some sort of demographic pie chart instead of artificial population units.

    Maybe a better way to give small nations a fighting chance would be an efficiency bonus based on population size and province numbers. One-province minors in EU3 could be quite effective in research. In real life the contribution to research by small countries like Sweden and Belgium was disproportionally high, too. Maybe that could be the way to go.
    I guess we'll see some of that in Vicky. They said that each POP will have it's own literacy level.

    Countries like Scandinavia, with a small population, full of highly literate POPs, will probably do extremely well in research.

    There needs to be safeguard, though. I wouldn't like to see Netherlands falling behind because the colonies are larger and people in them illiterate.
    Last edited by Sarmatian; 19-08-2009 at 15:12.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    There needs to be safeguard, though. I wouldn't like to see Netherlands falling behind because the colonies are larger and people in them illiterate.
    Agreed. I imagine it will be something like only correct culture POPs counting towards research, or at least only POPs on the same continent as your nation's capital.

  3. #23
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    Maybe even having people in the colonies not counting. A nice drawback that would keep you from making your colonies full fledged states.

    In Vicky there was practically no downside for making colony a state, expect for minor increase in cost...

  4. #24
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    Should non military Tech research be done by country at all? When an industrial process was invented it was limited by patent. The patent was owned by an individual capitalist. It was his to licence out as he saw fit. Weren't National State borders largely irrelevant to technology spread?

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Oliver View Post
    Should non military Tech research be done by country at all? When an industrial process was invented it was limited by patent. The patent was owned by an individual capitalist. It was his to licence out as he saw fit. Weren't National State borders largely irrelevant to technology spread?
    Might be more realistic, but would take away from gameplay. Why not just think of it as the state giving funding to universities, etc?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Oliver View Post
    Should non military Tech research be done by country at all? When an industrial process was invented it was limited by patent. The patent was owned by an individual capitalist. It was his to licence out as he saw fit. Weren't National State borders largely irrelevant to technology spread?
    Well, IIRC you can patent a design but not an idea. So, for example, if Dr. Ernald von Wurstsemmel patents an Incredible Flying Machine, he has a patent for Dr. Wurstsemmel's Incredible Flying Machine, but not the idea of incredible flying machines in general. There's nothing stopping professor Smith-Smythe-Smith from constructing his own.

    Or something. I dunno.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Oliver View Post
    Should non military Tech research be done by country at all? When an industrial process was invented it was limited by patent. The patent was owned by an individual capitalist. It was his to licence out as he saw fit. Weren't National State borders largely irrelevant to technology spread?
    I don't think in the 19th century patents were that much protected in nations, in which the company owning it had no influence. It certainly was a century of rip-offs an industrial espionage. I wouldn't want to see a purchase system like in Imperialism. Some sort of private initiative in the economic, industrial and cultural sectors would be nice, though (if tied to the general education/literacy level)
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  8. #28
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    I hope there will be like the original game but improved.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by theFreeman View Post
    I hope there will be like the original game but improved.
    I agree.
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  10. #30
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    I know I'm not the first person to say this (not even the first person in this thread) but I really think the implementation of the POP idea was one of the weakest parts of the original Victoria.

    Maybe get rid of pop promotion entirely in Victoria 2, and have pops split and reform constantly as they transition from one ideology or class to another. So when a craftsman pop is transitioning to clerk, instead of promoting the entire pop, the craftsman pop would break off a certain number of individuals and then people could move between craftsman and clerk gradually. Get rid of the idea of assigning pops to factories; instead, just calculate the total productivity of a region, based on population and not the number of POPs, and allocate that productivity. That would be more realistic, more intuitive and would keep the benefits of the POP system (being able to model populations as blocks but also being able to model populations with heavily correlated traits like craftsman-socialist).

  11. #31
    Victoria's Plastic Surgeon OHgamer's Avatar
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    I think what we'll see will be something akin to what is in Rome in terms of how pops in a province evolve according to the positions you as a player make during the course of the game.

    Which means there will be much less micromanagement and instead focusing on implementing the right kind of policies to achieve the goals you have for your nation in any specific game. You don't "promote" pops in Rome, but if you choose specific policies, as I understand it, you will see your population change in terms of the balance of free-slave for example.

    Something similar which would transform populations into workers from peasants if you adopt more pro-industrialization policies in game would not be all that much different, and make for much less focusing on individual POPs to get the economy you want. Combine that with capis who build factories for you, and voila, the economic game becomes a lot less detail-oriented, without hopefully sacrificing the kind of detail in terms of POP breakdown by ethnocultural and socioeconmic criteria that people love most about the Victoria pop system.
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  12. #32
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    I don't think I'll ever be unloading Revolutions from my hard drive. POP management is one of the cooler aspects of the original game for me, although I have to agree that it can get tiresome from time to time, depending on just how large your nation is. Don't get me wrong. I'm very, very hopeful that the new game will be absolutely wonderful, but I think that I may come to miss my old favorite every now and again.
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  13. #33
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    Automated, or semi-automated POPs should be a choice at the start of the game. I have both Vicky and Revolutions, and from reading this forum I know that a lot of the hard core fans of Vicky like the micromanagement of the POPs, so why not give the choice at the start of the game. It would allow you to concentrate more on the Colonization, Technology, Military and Govermental aspects of the game.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by OHgamer View Post
    I think what we'll see will be something akin to what is in Rome in terms of how pops in a province evolve according to the positions you as a player make during the course of the game.

    Which means there will be much less micromanagement and instead focusing on implementing the right kind of policies to achieve the goals you have for your nation in any specific game. You don't "promote" pops in Rome, but if you choose specific policies, as I understand it, you will see your population change in terms of the balance of free-slave for example.

    Something similar which would transform populations into workers from peasants if you adopt more pro-industrialization policies in game would not be all that much different, and make for much less focusing on individual POPs to get the economy you want. Combine that with capis who build factories for you, and voila, the economic game becomes a lot less detail-oriented, without hopefully sacrificing the kind of detail in terms of POP breakdown by ethnocultural and socioeconmic criteria that people love most about the Victoria pop system.
    Maybe this could be affected by a 'Laws from Hoi3' type system, with some laws making it easier to get craftsmen, clerks etc, but at some cost?

    Have to say I dont think the player should ever be able to create a capitalist. I think thats something that should come around as a reult of conditions, rather than any decisions. and they should dissapear should the reds take over.

  15. #35
    Keeping the ship on course Kazmir's Avatar
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    Considering they are adding two new types of POPs (artisans and bureucrats), they most certainly are included in the game. Whether they will be even remotely similar to Vicky 1; we shall see in the (near?) future.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazmir View Post
    Considering they are adding two new types of POPs (artisans and bureucrats), they most certainly are included in the game. Whether they will be even remotely similar to Vicky 1; we shall see in the (near?) future.
    Having POPs of some type is a certainty, it's just a way of distinguishing different types of economic activity. The question is whether or not they'll be like in Vicky 1, and the answer is almost definitely no.
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  17. #37
    Absent Minded Orinsul's Avatar
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    I reckon Victoria pretty much had POPs perfect as it was

  18. #38
    Benedìctus Deus in Sæcula Hardstuff's Avatar
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    POP religion should not remain static in my opinion, but change very very slowly depending on clergy POPs and policies. It doesn't need to be a main point in the game, but just something subtle to add to a little realism.

    Hell, we could even say if two clergy POPs are identical in size, but different in religion, they cancel eachother's tiny conversion power out.

    Also state religion shouldn't be static either.
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  19. #39
    Keeping the ship on course Kazmir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstuff View Post
    POP religion should not remain static in my opinion, but change very very slowly depending on clergy POPs and policies. It doesn't need to be a main point in the game, but just something subtle to add to a little realism.

    Hell, we could even say if two clergy POPs are identical in size, but different in religion, they cancel eachother's tiny conversion power out.

    Also state religion shouldn't be static either.
    Certain POPs should have it harder to convert though, for example the Jewsih minorities in Europe. How that is done I don't know, but I do like your idea.

    Perhaps add certain 'mean time to happen' indicators on POPs similar to events, which will start running after certain requirements are fulled (clergy religion in the province, majority religion in the province etc.). The POPs could be made to split after the conversion has fired, with some of them converting while others stay loyal to the original faith. This would of course depend on the size of the POP.

    I'd also like to see religious policies have more of an effect.

  20. #40
    Victoria's Plastic Surgeon OHgamer's Avatar
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    I'd like to see one more type of POP included in the game

    "white collar worker"

    not bureaucrats, but the small shop owners, petty tradesmen and service providers (both public and private) which grew rapidly in this period in tandem with the rise of urbanization and the creation of the factory working class.

    You can not understand the decline of classical liberal democracy and the rise of hypernationalism and fascism in post-1890 Europe without this group in society, which did not consider itself at all part of the "working class" but did not enjoy (and were quite resentful of) the privileges of the wealthy upper class professionals and large business owners. They also ensured that no socialist party would win an absolute majority of the vote in elections unless it toned down its rhetoric and focused on a more social-democratic model of reform.
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