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In some other games I've seen the supply rules implemented as tracing routes up the HQ hierarchy. I wouldn't want to change around the whole way things are done, but several people have asked for "supply dumps", and rather than introduce additional units/facilities that have to be moved around or created on the map, I'm wondering if a lot of the unwanted behavior of the current system could be smoothed out with a simple change to HQ behavior and a few small changes to the supply algorithms.

Right now from what I understand, the modeling is based on each unit drawing it's own supply all the way from the capital and they all compete to draw through bottlenecks of limited throughput, in order to try to maintain a 30-day supply in their own current province. What if instead, units used the same algorithms, but instead of drawing all the way from the capital, they would each draw from their own HQ, which in turn would draw from it's HQ, and it would only be the theatre HQ's or other unattached units that would draw all the way from the capital.

Set it up so that each higher level of HQ would attempt to stockpile a greater amount, based on the sum of needs of all its attached units, i.e. a Corps HQ might be stockpiling say a 45day supply for the entire Corps, an Army HQ a 60-day supply for the Army, etc.

This would mean that all the combat units would be only needing to trace a much shorter path to a nearby HQ, and each path is only possibly competing with paths from a few other nearby units that are drawing on local HQ supplies. I think you would see far fewer of the inexplicable out-of-supply situations, and with your major trunks branching out through higher HQ's that aren't moving around as much, the system should be much more stable, and problems should be much easier to visualize, understand, and fix. For instance:

You moved your Army Group HQ several provinces off into the low-infrastructure sticks and notice that it's supply reserves are dropping. Well before it runs out and starts causing problems for your actual combat units, you fix the problem by moving the HQ back a couple provinces where you had no problems before. You realize you need to build up a higher-infrastructure corridor if you want to continue moving a whole army group off in that direction...

That is so logical that it scares me that it was not in the game from the start...
 
Thanks

This is a great thread and I wish it could be stickied.

Thanks to potski, Glenn and others for your very valuable insight as to how the supply system works and how to make it work for you.

I have to say that I like the concept and the way the supply system has been implemented; It may need some tweaks in terms of what different level ports can handle and that sort of thing, but I think the concept is sound.

There is nothing wrong with requiring large forces to take time building up supply in preparation for a major offensive; in fact, it is very realistic. After a bug push forces need to not only rest and recouperate (modeled as ORG in HOI3), but also need to let their supply network not only catch up but then also build up the supply carried by the divisions, brigades, battalion supply units, etc. Representing this as the '30-day intrinsic supply' store is a fine approach, and if you have a lot of units all trying to replentish their stores at the same time it is naturally going to put a strain on the supply net, particularly one constrained by terrain, infrastructure, weather, port capacity, technology, etc. In HOI3 all of these appear to affect how, where and how fast supply moves, and I think it's great. I need to play more to judge whether individual values of coefficients in the settings files might need to change, but I fully expect the answer to many issues discussed on these forums will be found by first understanding and learning to use the complex supply system and then possibly adjusting parameters of the models if needed.

I am looking forward to spending time today experimenting with things I've read about and learned in this thread. It would be interesting, and also very realistic, for the HQ hierarchy and the placement of HQ units to affect supply throughput as suggested but other posters upstream. I've played many WWII games that modeled supply this way, including both board games (e.g., World in Flames, Final Edition v.1873298698416328954) and computer games (e.g., War in the Pacific), and it usually works well. I hope PI considers adding something like this, such as having HQ units add a bonus to throughput in the vicinity of their location.

Thanks again.
 
Please register the game.

Supply is not broken. Read the manual and strategy guide. Then re-read it again.

Supply
Supply moves one province per day
Supply tax the cost of moving supplies, (fuel supplies)
Out of Supply will not reinforce, update Org or Upgrade
Effects
Port Size
Infrastructure
Paraplanes
Difficulty level of game
techs tech required
Unit effected
HQ_brigade.....large_front
.....................guerilla_warfare
paratroops.......airborne_warfare_equipment

All..................supply_transportation..........supply_transfer_cost
All..................supply_organisation.............supply_throughput

Edit: Added
Here's another thing that effects supply; Economic Law

For example:
Germany has Mixed Industry for a 5% gain to throughput.
Heavy industry for a 10% gain to throughput.

anyone thinking supply works as designed is at fault

i modified a lot of stuff incl. laws to get throughput up, for example hvy industry gives 100% now...
the transportation cost(-) and eff.(+) doubled in techfiles..

i still run into major problems, less so then befor, but still

.. and if you tell me that a fleet in Stettin, 2 provinces from Berlin can run out of surplies for a month... very realistic :p
 
That supplies come from Berlin is a simplification. A better way of modelling it would be to allocate supplier production proportionately by IC point on the map and then distribute from there. The complexity of doing it this way would significantly increase the load on the game and not add a great deal of benefit IMO. So a good simplification

"The complexity of doing it this way would significantly increase the load on the game..." I beg your pardon?!? The game is already doing complex supply flow calculations per province. Sourcing supply from factories instead of the capital would add a couple of floating point operations (multiply & add) to the calculation per province, which in computing terms is practically nothing!
province supply += province IC * ( total supply production / total IC )
(Note the part in the brackets is a once-per-hour computed constant).
 
I think that part of the issue is how supplies are "ordered" and deliverd.

It seems that supplies are requested by the Units, but then go into place in the Province... ie... the UNIT does not carry supplies with it as it goes.

But the Unit seems to be able to use Enemy supplies if it takes a provice. Where this really shows up is when invading France, my Inf units never seem to go out of supply... yet my ARMOR units never have fuel, UNLESS I've taken a Province between Paris, and some French Armor unit.

I've also theorized that Supply is recalculated daily... to move supplies "forward" from places where there is not supply need, to units in places needing supplies.

So, at times, Units for which the algorithm is run last, may get its supplies "highjacked" by units which run the algorithm first.... thus we see some unit left out of supply for long periods of time.

And the order may very well start with the LAST created unit.

Still need to proove this, but I always make Guderian the commander of my 1st Panzer Corp... and almost always his units get refueld LAST, even when they are closer to Berlin than other units created later.
 
"The complexity of doing it this way would significantly increase the load on the game..." I beg your pardon?!? The game is already doing complex supply flow calculations per province. Sourcing supply from factories instead of the capital would add a couple of floating point operations (multiply & add) to the calculation per province, which in computing terms is practically nothing!
province supply += province IC * ( total supply production / total IC )
(Note the part in the brackets is a once-per-hour computed constant).

It's a bit more than that, surely. Having all supply originate in the capital makes it much simpler to determine where a supply run starts.
 
we know what the strategy guide and johan said .

but the game dont says that

the game says my supply system is broken and ned fix ! stop fanboyism.

if i have 600 free ic and 1941 supply techs and there is no airforce to disturb my nations supply routes ( uk main island invaded) other nations in europe annexed or goi and and you can say that you cant supply your fleet from berlin to wilhemstein is imposible like moths. come on don't hide your head in the sand
 
So in effect what we are seeing is that supply throughput to a particular front establishes a maximum theoretical limit for the number of fully supplied units that can be used in that theatre? It looks to me from reading through this thread that most supply problems are coming from having far too many supply hungry units feeding off the supply line. Ofcourse this is magnified by the problem of only having one supply route and supply centre.

This then means that supply is not just an issue of finding sufficient lines and constructing sufficient infrastructure to supply your army, but constructing an army you are capable of supplying in the first place. This will not only be vitally important at the division construction level but will impact your entire war strategy as a two front war for Germany will effectively halve the supplies available to each front.

So while having only one supply centre in Berlin is currently being perceived as strangling the supply throughput to a particular front, what it is actually doing is forcing the player to fight single front wars if the player wishes to achieve supply concentration and therefore maximum force concentration, and to construct armies that can be maintained with maximum supply concentration.

In effect a mass infantry army will always outnumber a heavilly armoured force at any particular front if all units are supplied effectively, but a second front opened against any particular enemy will likewise demand a portion of the existing force, and not allow a completely new army to be constructed and be properly supplied.

The bottom line, if I am reading this correctly, is that there is effectively a maximum army size per supply centre defined in terms of supply usage for throughput and infrastructure. Going over this limit will result in supply deficiency and therefore less effective units, but it is still possible but not without penalties. Again, using the command heirarchy efficiently and stacking traits will enable much larger forces.

I think personally we should stop looking at out-of-supply units, single supply centres and the supply throughput of provinces forming supply lines as "broken" or "imperfect" and look at the actual gameplay implications in terms of War Strategy, Army Composition, Structure and Combat Tactics. The German blitzkreig force can no longer outnumber the Soviet human wave while maintaining maximum efficiency. A Second Front can no longer be met by a second massive combined arms force operating at maximum efficiency.

In short if you are fighting in Russia and attempting to hold a massive line you will receive supply problems, and if you are then attacked in France by the Allies you must use your existing Army or suffer the immense supply reduction penalties across the board of spawning a brand new massive force. A Second Front in HOI3 therefore becomes one of the most dangerous weapons in the game at all difficulty levels, whether single player or multiplayer.
 
Very well said.

I think in HoI3 you just can't go on a rampage conquering the world and when you run out of supplies, just research Supply Throughput +1lvl and continue. No, you have to carefully plan you offensives and supply use as in a real war. 2 (or more) front war is just too much to handle for your supply organisation, as it was in real WW2.
 
Having read the guide several times, I'm either stupid (not impossible) or supply IS broken in some regards. As Germany spain I was once out of supply for over a year, even though I held two ports. It was not due to log bombing or being cut of, I even checked this by opening the save as Spain.
The stockpiles were building up just fine in the ports, the problem was that all the provinces had a throughput of 0 for the entire year. They had unbombed infrastructure of 40-60% and no mud. I simply fail to see what causes the throughput to be zero for an entire year...

Same thing has happened with German troops aiding Japan in their constant chinese struggle. Have I missed something completely? Shouldn't there be at least some throughput if the infrastructure is intact and supplies are making to port without being cut off?

edit: Both these instances were pre-39, so no other fronts were seing any fighting. In spain, I was aiding Franco.
 
Although there seem to be some quirks (I had a unit transport itself from Seattle to San Francisco and promtly went out of supply as soon as it got there. Then every week or so it would drop out of supply again. It was as if the AI kept forgetting it was there), overall I think it adds realism as others have mentioned. That's what this game has always been about right?

The Allies (as you will all know) had the same problems of course. Patton got well narked when his supplies were shunted to Monty for the northern push rather than his southern actions in '44.
 
I am playing as Germany and have had this whole problem since I launched Operation Barbarossa. Once I got east of Moscow, supply problems routinely became an issue. I imagine this is for a few reasons. One, I don't build infantry, only armor (mainly heavy), as that is all Germany needs until Russia is defeated. Two, the infrastructure in Eastern Russia is terrible.

What I find weird though is how after I defeated Russia and annexed the western half, they redeclared war on me immediately. I started doing a land grab. I could understand the stretched out units having supply issues, but when trying to grab nearby provinces, the units would often run out of supply. In addition, many of my units in Spain, France, etc would also run out of supply. However, once I invaded England, supply was never an issue. This leads me to believe that the supply system puts priority on frontline units. When doing my land grab in Russia, far eastern light armor sections would keep plugging up land. However, my mop up divisions frequently would run out of supply.

I will add that with myself, I got irritated with the micromanaging, yet I refuse to let the AI take over any of my military other than supply. Thus, I never organized all my units at all. In fact, most all of my HQs still reside in Germany as I don't feel like moving them (I am so technically advanced that it doesn't matter anyways).

I still think it is broken though because this whole time I had stockpiles of everything. My energy, coal, and steel are all 100k. My oil is about 50k with my fuel fluctuating between 0 to 20k (was at 50k for the longest time and I was still having supply issues). My thoughts are that as long as you have stockpiles, none of your units should ever run out of supply. Oh well, it is what it is.
 
It's a bit more than that, surely. Having all supply originate in the capital makes it much simpler to determine where a supply run starts.

From all the available information that I've seen and how I've seen it operate in game, it appears to compute only the local supply flow between a province and it's neighbours. (Note the province supply demand & flow stats etc in the supply mapmode). It doesn't seem to compute a supply route between the capital and every single unit. So supplies flow from high supply provinces to low supply provinces down the supply demand gradient. If that's correct then multiple supply sources will have negligible impact on performance. No matter what, the system is badly broken right now. I've had units close to Berlin go out of supply for months (with a 100% infrastructure route to the capital) whilst it's managing to supply units in Afghanistan...
Cheers, J.
 
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Very well said.

I think in HoI3 you just can't go on a rampage conquering the world and when you run out of supplies, just research Supply Throughput +1lvl and continue. No, you have to carefully plan you offensives and supply use as in a real war. 2 (or more) front war is just too much to handle for your supply organisation, as it was in real WW2.

I concur. I think that a whole new level of realism and strategy is being overlooked and criticised as broken or bugged because the implications of that feature are not properly understood as yet.

Supply throughput*distance*infrastructure*preferred force composition = unit cap for operation.

To put it bluntly.
 
I had units that were in wrong theather , like i had Berlin theatre units in France and some of em were out of supply (tanks)

I switched em to the right theatre and it took some days and they started getting supply.

I assume the problem is the sheer amount of units, and the further away you have units, the more they actually take supply to stay in supply.

I assume the game does not count that if your unit uses 5 supply per day, that when it is in India and it tracks it by land, the unit actually eats a lot more then 5 supply as the range boosts the demand. (not all the supply reaches the target so it sends more, ie 5x0.5x0.7 = supply that reaches it(example))

??? anyone know how it actually is calculated ?
 
I concur. I think that a whole new level of realism and strategy is being overlooked and criticised as broken or bugged because the implications of that feature are not properly understood as yet.

Supply throughput*distance*infrastructure*preferred force composition = unit cap for operation.

To put it bluntly.

yes i agree, the further away from berlin you have units, and the crappier infra you have to get there, the more demanding it is to your supply chain.
 
I concur. I think that a whole new level of realism and strategy is being overlooked and criticised as broken or bugged because the implications of that feature are not properly understood as yet.

Both yes and no. I would expect a lot of supply issues (in fact, I want it), but having zero throughput in unbombed provinces that are not cut off for over a year when the supply depot is fully stocked, the infrastructure is between 40-60% and I have no other war front except for the two corps in spain going on is beyond realism, agreed?
 
Both yes and no. I would expect a lot of supply issues (in fact, I want it), but having zero throughput in unbombed provinces that are not cut off for over a year when the supply depot is fully stocked, the infrastructure is between 40-60% and I have no other war front except for the two corps in spain going on is beyond realism, agreed?


Could you provide the .savegame file? I'm curious to see and find out if it can be fixed somehow.
 
Could you provide the .savegame file? I'm curious to see and find out if it can be fixed somehow.

I'm afraid not, it was pre-1.2 and I always remove old saves after a patch since they only clutter up my screen.

Come to think of it, I haven't really tested it since 1.2 so I can't be sure it isn't fixed. I might be better off shutting my mouth... :)