Keeping your armies supplied?

[Toastie]

Supplying through core territory infrastructure that has infra of 60%+ should be basically free and have much higher throughput than now. This is to represent more local suppliers and ease of transport that would be present in your own country.

[jasedenton]

Actually, in this case I believe you would need to keep it standing still for 30 days after the bar goes green. If they get 100% of their needs every day, then logic suggests that it would take them 30 days to build up 30 days of reserve supplies. Either that, or getting 3000% of their need the day after they are fully stocked.

On the other hand, I have seen troops that have been sitting idle in berlin for half a year go red on both fuel and supplies the seconf they landed in spain after a one week transport, so I agree that something funky is going on...

If the supply bar is only displaying how much supply the unit is receiving and NOT the supply reserve then that's a major bug or design flaw. The tooltip for the supply bar already gives the percentage of it's supply demand that it's receiving. The tooltips usually give additional related information, not a duplicate of the same info... Knowing how much supply reserve your unit has is essential. We've got the tooltip and the supply mapmode to provide information about the supply flow.

[melvish]

Eventually the supply concept will sink in.

It's not broken.

Remember:

supply_transfer_cost
supply_throughput
force to space ratio
reinforcment draw takes longer

I agree with you that the general concept is not broken. But how supply propagate on the map is gliched and in need fxing.

I've notice that your stockpile of supply is irrelevant. It is all about IC investicement in supply production. You could have 100k supply yet if you put 0 IC investisement you would suffer chronicle supply shortage, especially for fuel. On the other hand, if you have 0 supply stock yet invest 3-4 time the min production investisement in supply, all your units (except for some rare exception that are in what i call void supply regions) will keep "in-supply".

The supply model is a good idea for HOI3, unfortunately it is a bit gliched. It will be one of my favorite feature once properly fixed and balanced. That why while PI fix that i'm keeping "supply_throughput = 2.0" in my static_modifiers.txt, it help getting around the glich. I was always build some air transport to deal with the odd and rare void supply region problem. I was able to maintain my panzerarmee(s) in-supply in deep Yugoslavia and USSR using the method i've explained.

[Gen Longstreet]

I've had that happen as well. And the thing is, I haven't been getting bombed at ALL, I took out France and the UK. So far my skies have been clear. It's just rediculous. Nothing sucks more than being in the middle of an offensive and your units just getting out of supply.

Had that with my up-to-date Armored Spearhead divisions on their way to Afghanistan. But what really sucked even more was watching bulgarien foot soldiers just jogging to India without any problems...

[tully]

Had that with my up-to-date Armored Spearhead divisions on their way to Afghanistan. But what really sucked even more was watching bulgarien foot soldiers just jogging to India without any problems...

I wondered about this as well. Are the supply limits only imposed on human players? I hope not, but I can't explain what I am seeing otherwise.

[thegerman2008]

I think the suppy model is fine .. I think where the problems occur is our usage of it.

If you have a large force concentrated in one area .. then each division is going to send a supply request to the local depot (capital, closest naval base or supply dump) .. when the request is received, the supplies get sent out (by the optimal route) day by day and travel one province per day to fulfil the request.

Because you have a large concentrated force - the route taken for the supply is going to more or less take the same route for all divisions (diverging only near the final destination) .. hence, bottlenecks will occur in the chain. (hence why you see a line of green provinces heading towards the force and then diverging when it gets closer).

It doesn't matter if your 200km inside France or 1500km inside Russia .. if the bottleneck is at the French border or in and around Warsaw your going to lack supplies at the front.

When the bottlenecks occur - it looks like the AI tries to work out alternative routes for some divisions .. Remember, its looking for the quickest / most optimal route .. if that is through 6 consequative "Plains" provinces, snaking their way through mountains on either side - its going to funnel all the supply, for all divisions in your concentrated area, through those 6 provinces. This might be the quickest route - but eventually, the amount of traffic passing through those 6 provinces will cause bottlenecks (due to throughput).

Then, weather will have an impact. Lots of rain / snow on the optimal route will cause further bottlenecks when trucks get bogged down .. sadly, you can't do much about the weather ..

So where is the problem?

I say its in the concentration of force.

East Prussia - with Germany - is a perfect example. I tend to put way too many divisions in there pre-Poland .. and bit by bit, I start to see them struggling for supplies. I have too many divisions in there to be able to supply at 100%. As soon as I start to remove divisions - the supply problems fix themselves.

I've not done this so don't know for certain - but start a 1936 game with Germany and send all your divisions to a province 4 steps from Berlin .. I imagine you'll get supply problems .. It doesn't matter how close if the amount of divisions is too large in one area .. the route to where they are will get overwhelmed.

As an example with Italy and Africa (where I had serious supply problems when I played that game) .. Its not a case of how many divisions you would WANT or LIKE on the continent - its about how many you NEED and can SUPPLY. Once you go over the limit of what you can support - then you'll get supply problems.

When this happens you can either :

a) Carry on and accept your going to get supply problems and plan for it ..
or
b) Take the hint - you've got too much force here than what can be adaquetly supplied - and ship some back to the main land.

On fronts - don't concentrate large forces .. spread them out a little bit to open up different supply routes to not cause bottlenecks 300km behind the lines ..

Going off that then, can you explain how:
1) I am supposed to hold the front as Russia against an aggressive europe?
2)Why, even though i only have 1 infantry/Med or light armour/ mech or motor division in each province along the border, EVERY ONE is out of supply? (even thought they are all connected in a proper command chain.
**3)Why on Earth my divisions with vehicles in them have maximum amounts of fuel (the bar being full) but practically no supplies AT ALL (bar is empty)(this one really confuses me )?
4)Finally, how the confusing supplies map mode is supposed to help us when it doesnt outline any problems in routes,its doesnt give figures and it doesnt explain the colour coding?


**:This is really confusing, because, logically, if my troops cant be supplied with supplies they wont be able to be supplied with fuel?
But this isnt the case.
My armoured divisions have max fuel even when moving and attacking but they keep running out of supplies, and the fact i cannot make heads or tails of the supplies map mode doesnt help.

[Von Franz]

I fixed the problem by increasing the supply thoroughfare tech benefit. Basically the capitol is your choke point. Because all supplies have to come from the capitol the thoroughfare max for infra 10 in a single province is the limiter on total supplies for your entire army.

Course the downside is that now I have to pay the IC for the supplies now which is about 300, it makes the game playable though.

[jasedenton]

I agree with you that the general concept is not broken. But how supply propagate on the map is gliched and in need fxing.

I've notice that your stockpile of supply is irrelevant. It is all about IC investicement in supply production. You could have 100k supply yet if you put 0 IC investisement you would suffer chronicle supply shortage, especially for fuel. On the other hand, if you have 0 supply stock yet invest 3-4 time the min production investisement in supply, all your units (except for some rare exception that are in what i call void supply regions) will keep "in-supply".

The supply model is a good idea for HOI3, unfortunately it is a bit gliched. It will be one of my favorite feature once properly fixed and balanced. That why while PI fix that i'm keeping "supply_throughput = 2.0" in my static_modifiers.txt, it help getting around the glich. I was always build some air transport to deal with the odd and rare void supply region problem. I was able to maintain my panzerarmee(s) in-supply in deep Yugoslavia and USSR using the method i've explained.

"...what i call void supply regions" : excellent description, that's absolutely spot-on! I had another instance of this last night. Playing as GER (1944) I had a pure infantry army gathered around roughly 1/2 of the border of Iraq, 1 corp of 5 inf divisions per province. All relevant supply tech researched to ~1948/1950, supply & fuel maxed out at 99999, infrastructure down to that region had been constantly improved since 1940. They'd been sitting there idle for months gathering supplies... and yet one corps in the middle of the eastern border of Iraq simply refused to ever aquire any supplies at all! The other corps were able to invade Iraq without incurring any supply problems at all and still that corps sat there totally out of supply and totally unable to move. Supply was flowing all around it and yet never to it! (all my transport aircraft were unavailable due to having to supply my forces in the UK that were trying to repulse a US naval invasion).
Cheers, J.

[Vhorthex]

Same here, had weird bugs about the fact that some HQ's which are in the mainland of germany (All 100% infrastructure, no bombing, no bad weather) that would randomly go out of supply for 1 day or 2.

I have 90k+ of both fuel and supplies.

What? I'm happy I didn't get any front line supply snafu yet, but all this talk about supply problems is getting me anxious I do try to make a 100% infrastructure "highway" in all new provinces I annex/conquer.)

Oh well, I would LOVE, that in HOI 4 (surely this can't be done for HOI 3) if you would actually make land supply convoys manually. Just like sea convoys, but you would build trucks, and set suply routes across europe, etc... It would be a little bit more hassle, but I guess it could be automized for those who wouldn't want to fuss with it.

If everything was manually done, then it would be easy to understand and fix. But now when everything you can done has been done, it leave you with an uneasy feeling... and imobile troops

I hope we all get to wrap our minds around this

[steeltalons]

I have been reading about supply and I haven't found much on my particular question.
I am playing as Germany and DOW and then proceeded to invaded Republic of Spain, to help the Nationalists, at Cadiz where there is a port. Now my understanding was if there was a port I would be able to receive supply through that port, yet I am not? I have units being supplied from Maribella, which I have no link to and there is no port there. Oh, when I invaded the providence was turned to the Nationalist, but I thought I could receive supply through an allied port, they are part of my faction.

Thanks

[thegerman2008]

I think one possible solution to the horrible supply problems might be to have the AI spawn more supply depots so that your supply chain doesn't have to stretch all the way back to your capital.

Or PI could add some buttons in the province menu that say:

1)Make Temporary Supply Depot
2)Make Permanent Supply Depot

Although this could ruin the logisticla side of the game if all you have to do is spawn new supply points when your troops get stalled.

[wolf1455]

Please register the game.

Supply is not broken. Read the manual and strategy guide. Then re-read it again.

Supply
Supply moves one province per day
Supply tax the cost of moving supplies, (fuel supplies)
Out of Supply will not reinforce, update Org or Upgrade
Effects
Port Size
Infrastructure
Paraplanes
Difficulty level of game
techs tech required
Unit effected
HQ_brigade.....large_front
.....................guerilla_warfare
paratroops.......airborne_warfare_equipment

All..................supply_transportation........ ..supply_transfer_cost
All..................supply_organisation.......... ...supply_throughput

Edit: Added
Here's another thing that effects supply; Economic Law

For example:
Germany has Mixed Industry for a 5% gain to throughput.
Heavy industry for a 10% gain to throughput.

Who are you? A secret member of dev? I also read the manual and I know all techs and sutch to help getting supply to the units. In all my games I get supply problem even if I pave all my areas in cement, making the areas a virtual parking lot. And not saying any thing of the traffic jam from the capital. To say (in your cocky manner) that supply is not broken, is just stupid.
I also love this games potential but to blindly ignore fact doesnt make it magicly work. I read other entries from you so I know you have an inteligent way of seeing things but about the supply issue I dont understand you.

[Vent_Gala]

I have an idea:

A lot of people seem to dislike the word broken, and there are obviously as many interpetations of the terms glitch, bug and not workig as intended as there are posters. So to avoid a lot of pointless bickering, how about this:

From now on, in this thread, the word broken would mean "regardless of what I think about the general supply system, there are things that in one way or another, be it big or small, does not correlate with what the manual and strategic guide says.".
I think this could avoid a lot of the yes it is - no it isn't posts that does not really contribute to the thread. How about it?

[JTBM]

Supply problems usually happen during invasions, your mainland has usually enough supply carrying capacity.

During invasion ports must be taken into account 1 port level can supply 1 avarage division. This means that you must look at the invaded port and you see how many divisions you can ferry over.

Therefore it is wise to invade large port (6-10). A small port (1-4) means that you will not be able to supply enough divisions to survive the invasion.

Example:
I play Hungary, conquered the Balkan and now want to invade Egypt and Palestina.

My supply start will be Athen with a level 10 port. I have a number of other ports, so my start supply is secure.

First I have to take the port Alexandria (it has a funny name in the game) what has a level 10 port, so no problem if I go this way.

However I could invade a Palestina port city first what has a port size of 3. In this case I will be running into trouble, because I can only supply 3 divisions what will be evetually pushed be into the ocean.

Other example:
I have annexed Denmark and got Greenland. I have ferryd over 2 divisions, what are usually enough to make invasion very hard and give me time to react. Godhab (Greenland port province) has a level 1 port. My 2 divisions are constantly out of supply. I have build a port in Godhab and now they are OK.

I have also built a line of infrastructure on the supply routes. Hungary has 80% infra, I have improved it to 100% to Dansk (Poland) and Athen.

[Gieani]

I play as Italy and i watch hopeless as Japan invaded China,Communist China,Clique and the rest of the puppets there and instead of annexing them,they created puppets,and now all the japanese armies are in Communist China and not moving for over a year cause they are not getting any supplies.
1st they should have annexed them and 2nd even if they don't own the territory that doesn't mean they shouldn't receive supplies through their puppet's ports..

[Hoo_Man]

I moved a considerable amount of my army to a region in western france, and now it cannot move because it will not receive supply, everyone else is supplied along the entire western front, but NOT these guys they are just hanging out waiting to be killed.

Everything in Northern France, supplies no problem, but as soon as i get around the SE of france, three or four regions refuse to get supplies, ever. I have 999999 all the techs, and one gagillion convoys.

Whats the deal?

[Charles Louis]

Whats the deal?

Take European ports that can send supply to SE France, multiply by four, this is your capacity for supplying your army. Now look at demand draw for your army, most easily done on the supply depot you have. If demand exceeds port capacity, you have your answer.

This happened historically, and Patton was denied supplies so that 21st army group could take more ports, and add supply capacity. You may need to execute an Operation Market Garden of your own.

[Hoo_Man]

they are sitting in a port, in bordeaux..

[Charles Louis]

That's nice, but its kind of like telling me what color hats they are wearing- it doesn't address the question of whether demand exceeds capacity.

It does beg the question, do you have convoys going to Bordeaux and La Rochelle? Having convoys available is good, having them actually ship material is better. How many ports are being supplied?

[CavScout]

Take European ports that can send supply to SE France, multiply by four, this is your capacity for supplying your army. Now look at demand draw for your army, most easily done on the supply depot you have. If demand exceeds port capacity, you have your answer.

This happened historically, and Patton was denied supplies so that 21st army group could take more ports, and add supply capacity. You may need to execute an Operation Market Garden of your own.

"Historically" different areas/armies would receive priority of supplies. They wouldn't be randomly distributed and didn't all originate from D.C.

"Historically" the Allies didn't build harbors as represented in HOI3 either.