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Thread: Keeping your armies supplied?

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Grenville Coney View Post
    That supplies come from Berlin is a simplification. A better way of modelling it would be to allocate supplier production proportionately by IC point on the map and then distribute from there. The complexity of doing it this way would significantly increase the load on the game and not add a great deal of benefit IMO. So a good simplification
    "The complexity of doing it this way would significantly increase the load on the game..." I beg your pardon?!? The game is already doing complex supply flow calculations per province. Sourcing supply from factories instead of the capital would add a couple of floating point operations (multiply & add) to the calculation per province, which in computing terms is practically nothing!
    province supply += province IC * ( total supply production / total IC )
    (Note the part in the brackets is a once-per-hour computed constant).

  2. #122
    I think that part of the issue is how supplies are "ordered" and deliverd.

    It seems that supplies are requested by the Units, but then go into place in the Province... ie... the UNIT does not carry supplies with it as it goes.

    But the Unit seems to be able to use Enemy supplies if it takes a provice. Where this really shows up is when invading France, my Inf units never seem to go out of supply... yet my ARMOR units never have fuel, UNLESS I've taken a Province between Paris, and some French Armor unit.

    I've also theorized that Supply is recalculated daily... to move supplies "forward" from places where there is not supply need, to units in places needing supplies.

    So, at times, Units for which the algorithm is run last, may get its supplies "highjacked" by units which run the algorithm first.... thus we see some unit left out of supply for long periods of time.

    And the order may very well start with the LAST created unit.

    Still need to proove this, but I always make Guderian the commander of my 1st Panzer Corp... and almost always his units get refueld LAST, even when they are closer to Berlin than other units created later.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by jasedenton View Post
    "The complexity of doing it this way would significantly increase the load on the game..." I beg your pardon?!? The game is already doing complex supply flow calculations per province. Sourcing supply from factories instead of the capital would add a couple of floating point operations (multiply & add) to the calculation per province, which in computing terms is practically nothing!
    province supply += province IC * ( total supply production / total IC )
    (Note the part in the brackets is a once-per-hour computed constant).
    It's a bit more than that, surely. Having all supply originate in the capital makes it much simpler to determine where a supply run starts.

  4. #124
    I would mod the game level to increase throughput.

  5. #125
    we know what the strategy guide and johan said .

    but the game dont says that

    the game says my supply system is broken and ned fix ! stop fanboyism.

    if i have 600 free ic and 1941 supply techs and there is no airforce to disturb my nations supply routes ( uk main island invaded) other nations in europe annexed or goi and and you can say that you cant supply your fleet from berlin to wilhemstein is imposible like moths. come on don't hide your head in the sand

  6. #126
    So in effect what we are seeing is that supply throughput to a particular front establishes a maximum theoretical limit for the number of fully supplied units that can be used in that theatre? It looks to me from reading through this thread that most supply problems are coming from having far too many supply hungry units feeding off the supply line. Ofcourse this is magnified by the problem of only having one supply route and supply centre.

    This then means that supply is not just an issue of finding sufficient lines and constructing sufficient infrastructure to supply your army, but constructing an army you are capable of supplying in the first place. This will not only be vitally important at the division construction level but will impact your entire war strategy as a two front war for Germany will effectively halve the supplies available to each front.

    So while having only one supply centre in Berlin is currently being perceived as strangling the supply throughput to a particular front, what it is actually doing is forcing the player to fight single front wars if the player wishes to achieve supply concentration and therefore maximum force concentration, and to construct armies that can be maintained with maximum supply concentration.

    In effect a mass infantry army will always outnumber a heavilly armoured force at any particular front if all units are supplied effectively, but a second front opened against any particular enemy will likewise demand a portion of the existing force, and not allow a completely new army to be constructed and be properly supplied.

    The bottom line, if I am reading this correctly, is that there is effectively a maximum army size per supply centre defined in terms of supply usage for throughput and infrastructure. Going over this limit will result in supply deficiency and therefore less effective units, but it is still possible but not without penalties. Again, using the command heirarchy efficiently and stacking traits will enable much larger forces.

    I think personally we should stop looking at out-of-supply units, single supply centres and the supply throughput of provinces forming supply lines as "broken" or "imperfect" and look at the actual gameplay implications in terms of War Strategy, Army Composition, Structure and Combat Tactics. The German blitzkreig force can no longer outnumber the Soviet human wave while maintaining maximum efficiency. A Second Front can no longer be met by a second massive combined arms force operating at maximum efficiency.

    In short if you are fighting in Russia and attempting to hold a massive line you will receive supply problems, and if you are then attacked in France by the Allies you must use your existing Army or suffer the immense supply reduction penalties across the board of spawning a brand new massive force. A Second Front in HOI3 therefore becomes one of the most dangerous weapons in the game at all difficulty levels, whether single player or multiplayer.

  7. #127
    First Lieutenant King_Stanislav's Avatar
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    Very well said.

    I think in HoI3 you just can't go on a rampage conquering the world and when you run out of supplies, just research Supply Throughput +1lvl and continue. No, you have to carefully plan you offensives and supply use as in a real war. 2 (or more) front war is just too much to handle for your supply organisation, as it was in real WW2.

  8. #128
    Having read the guide several times, I'm either stupid (not impossible) or supply IS broken in some regards. As Germany spain I was once out of supply for over a year, even though I held two ports. It was not due to log bombing or being cut of, I even checked this by opening the save as Spain.
    The stockpiles were building up just fine in the ports, the problem was that all the provinces had a throughput of 0 for the entire year. They had unbombed infrastructure of 40-60% and no mud. I simply fail to see what causes the throughput to be zero for an entire year...

    Same thing has happened with German troops aiding Japan in their constant chinese struggle. Have I missed something completely? Shouldn't there be at least some throughput if the infrastructure is intact and supplies are making to port without being cut off?

    edit: Both these instances were pre-39, so no other fronts were seing any fighting. In spain, I was aiding Franco.
    "I tattooed PZKW on the knuckles of my right hand, and all I got out of it was this lousy signature..."

  9. #129
    Lord of Lost Hope Eddy Gemmell's Avatar
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    Although there seem to be some quirks (I had a unit transport itself from Seattle to San Francisco and promtly went out of supply as soon as it got there. Then every week or so it would drop out of supply again. It was as if the AI kept forgetting it was there), overall I think it adds realism as others have mentioned. That's what this game has always been about right?

    The Allies (as you will all know) had the same problems of course. Patton got well narked when his supplies were shunted to Monty for the northern push rather than his southern actions in '44.
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  10. #130
    I am playing as Germany and have had this whole problem since I launched Operation Barbarossa. Once I got east of Moscow, supply problems routinely became an issue. I imagine this is for a few reasons. One, I don't build infantry, only armor (mainly heavy), as that is all Germany needs until Russia is defeated. Two, the infrastructure in Eastern Russia is terrible.

    What I find weird though is how after I defeated Russia and annexed the western half, they redeclared war on me immediately. I started doing a land grab. I could understand the stretched out units having supply issues, but when trying to grab nearby provinces, the units would often run out of supply. In addition, many of my units in Spain, France, etc would also run out of supply. However, once I invaded England, supply was never an issue. This leads me to believe that the supply system puts priority on frontline units. When doing my land grab in Russia, far eastern light armor sections would keep plugging up land. However, my mop up divisions frequently would run out of supply.

    I will add that with myself, I got irritated with the micromanaging, yet I refuse to let the AI take over any of my military other than supply. Thus, I never organized all my units at all. In fact, most all of my HQs still reside in Germany as I don't feel like moving them (I am so technically advanced that it doesn't matter anyways).

    I still think it is broken though because this whole time I had stockpiles of everything. My energy, coal, and steel are all 100k. My oil is about 50k with my fuel fluctuating between 0 to 20k (was at 50k for the longest time and I was still having supply issues). My thoughts are that as long as you have stockpiles, none of your units should ever run out of supply. Oh well, it is what it is.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by AlanC9 View Post
    It's a bit more than that, surely. Having all supply originate in the capital makes it much simpler to determine where a supply run starts.
    From all the available information that I've seen and how I've seen it operate in game, it appears to compute only the local supply flow between a province and it's neighbours. (Note the province supply demand & flow stats etc in the supply mapmode). It doesn't seem to compute a supply route between the capital and every single unit. So supplies flow from high supply provinces to low supply provinces down the supply demand gradient. If that's correct then multiple supply sources will have negligible impact on performance. No matter what, the system is badly broken right now. I've had units close to Berlin go out of supply for months (with a 100% infrastructure route to the capital) whilst it's managing to supply units in Afghanistan...
    Cheers, J.
    Last edited by jasedenton; 08-09-2009 at 12:54.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by King_Stanislav View Post
    Very well said.

    I think in HoI3 you just can't go on a rampage conquering the world and when you run out of supplies, just research Supply Throughput +1lvl and continue. No, you have to carefully plan you offensives and supply use as in a real war. 2 (or more) front war is just too much to handle for your supply organisation, as it was in real WW2.
    I concur. I think that a whole new level of realism and strategy is being overlooked and criticised as broken or bugged because the implications of that feature are not properly understood as yet.

    Supply throughput*distance*infrastructure*preferred force composition = unit cap for operation.

    To put it bluntly.

  13. #133
    I had units that were in wrong theather , like i had Berlin theatre units in France and some of em were out of supply (tanks)

    I switched em to the right theatre and it took some days and they started getting supply.

    I assume the problem is the sheer amount of units, and the further away you have units, the more they actually take supply to stay in supply.

    I assume the game does not count that if your unit uses 5 supply per day, that when it is in India and it tracks it by land, the unit actually eats a lot more then 5 supply as the range boosts the demand. (not all the supply reaches the target so it sends more, ie 5x0.5x0.7 = supply that reaches it(example))

    ??? anyone know how it actually is calculated ?

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by eventhorizen View Post
    I concur. I think that a whole new level of realism and strategy is being overlooked and criticised as broken or bugged because the implications of that feature are not properly understood as yet.

    Supply throughput*distance*infrastructure*preferred force composition = unit cap for operation.

    To put it bluntly.
    yes i agree, the further away from berlin you have units, and the crappier infra you have to get there, the more demanding it is to your supply chain.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by eventhorizen View Post
    I concur. I think that a whole new level of realism and strategy is being overlooked and criticised as broken or bugged because the implications of that feature are not properly understood as yet.
    Both yes and no. I would expect a lot of supply issues (in fact, I want it), but having zero throughput in unbombed provinces that are not cut off for over a year when the supply depot is fully stocked, the infrastructure is between 40-60% and I have no other war front except for the two corps in spain going on is beyond realism, agreed?
    "I tattooed PZKW on the knuckles of my right hand, and all I got out of it was this lousy signature..."

  16. #136
    First Lieutenant King_Stanislav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vent_Gala View Post
    Both yes and no. I would expect a lot of supply issues (in fact, I want it), but having zero throughput in unbombed provinces that are not cut off for over a year when the supply depot is fully stocked, the infrastructure is between 40-60% and I have no other war front except for the two corps in spain going on is beyond realism, agreed?

    Could you provide the .savegame file? I'm curious to see and find out if it can be fixed somehow.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by King_Stanislav View Post
    Could you provide the .savegame file? I'm curious to see and find out if it can be fixed somehow.
    I'm afraid not, it was pre-1.2 and I always remove old saves after a patch since they only clutter up my screen.

    Come to think of it, I haven't really tested it since 1.2 so I can't be sure it isn't fixed. I might be better off shutting my mouth...
    "I tattooed PZKW on the knuckles of my right hand, and all I got out of it was this lousy signature..."

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Eddy Gemmell View Post
    Although there seem to be some quirks (I had a unit transport itself from Seattle to San Francisco and promtly went out of supply as soon as it got there. Then every week or so it would drop out of supply again. It was as if the AI kept forgetting it was there), overall I think it adds realism as others have mentioned. That's what this game has always been about right?

    The Allies (as you will all know) had the same problems of course. Patton got well narked when his supplies were shunted to Monty for the northern push rather than his southern actions in '44.
    "... and promtly went out of supply as soon as it got there." That's yet another supply bug. The manual states that units have a 30 day reserve of supplies: H2.0 Throughput: "Units have a 30-day reserve of Supplies, which may become exhausted if the unit is constantly running ahead of its supplies." I've had infantry in remote areas sit idle until their supply bar is full then given them movement orders. Their supply has dropped to zero before they can complete the movement and the movement order has been automatically terminated. Note that these were foot infantry with no dependence on fuel. If the unit's supply bar has gone up to 100% green then it should have a full 30 day reserve, yet I've had foot infantry with 100% supply grind to a halt in a couple of days trying to cross a small allied/puppet country that's in poor supply...
    Cheers, J.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by jasedenton View Post
    "... and promtly went out of supply as soon as it got there." That's yet another supply bug. The manual states that units have a 30 day reserve of supplies: H2.0 Throughput: "Units have a 30-day reserve of Supplies, which may become exhausted if the unit is constantly running ahead of its supplies." I've had infantry in remote areas sit idle until their supply bar is full then given them movement orders. Their supply has dropped to zero before they can complete the movement and the movement order has been automatically terminated. Note that these were foot infantry with no dependence on fuel. If the unit's supply bar has gone up to 100% green then it should have a full 30 day reserve, yet I've had foot infantry with 100% supply grind to a halt in a couple of days trying to cross a small allied/puppet country that's in poor supply...
    Cheers, J.
    Actually, in this case I believe you would need to keep it standing still for 30 days after the bar goes green. If they get 100% of their needs every day, then logic suggests that it would take them 30 days to build up 30 days of reserve supplies. Either that, or getting 3000% of their need the day after they are fully stocked.

    On the other hand, I have seen troops that have been sitting idle in berlin for half a year go red on both fuel and supplies the seconf they landed in spain after a one week transport, so I agree that something funky is going on...
    "I tattooed PZKW on the knuckles of my right hand, and all I got out of it was this lousy signature..."

  20. #140
    Close the worLd,.txEn eht nepO GAGA Extrem's Avatar
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    The supply system has it's problems, esp. for long range supply, even in good infra territory. USA is a good example for that - a giant country, but the west coast can barely be supplied because all supplies come from Washington.

    In general, I think it would be good to increase throughput for high infra provinces. This way the problems for large countries like USA and SOV are reduced and low infra still hurts your supply line.

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