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Well you don't need to send that much, I've managed it with 3 brigades. I suppose you need every unit you can for your own battles, though.LOLKATS: There's no way I can afford such a useless diversion. The Germans will figure it out themselves, at least they're actually active against the Finns, unlike against the Soviets.
There's gonna be tears, methinks.
You'll be doing well to not lose some units here. In your last game of tootsie with the Ruskies you did well and eliminated a strong tank division if I remember.
I fear their tanks will be too much for you and will brush you aside. All the best with it.
And again, brilliant AAR. Bravo.
You'll be doing well to not lose some units here. In your last game of tootsie with the Ruskies you did well and eliminated a strong tank division if I remember.
I fear their tanks will be too much for you and will brush you aside. All the best with it.
And again, brilliant AAR. Bravo.
FrodoB: Deception is always a good thing, though in this case I didn't really need more of it.
BlitzMartinDK: Maybe, we'll see. The 1.4 installer doesn't actually think I have HoI3 installed, so I'll have to go with the last beta version (11).
LOLKATS: Well the thing is that the Germans are actually being fairly competent in Scandinavia. It's only when they come into contact with the Soviets do they act more like lovers than fighters.
hoikof: Oh ye of little faith. We'll see how it all goes down.
Update tonight, boys!
BlitzMartinDK: Maybe, we'll see. The 1.4 installer doesn't actually think I have HoI3 installed, so I'll have to go with the last beta version (11).
LOLKATS: Well the thing is that the Germans are actually being fairly competent in Scandinavia. It's only when they come into contact with the Soviets do they act more like lovers than fighters.
hoikof: Oh ye of little faith. We'll see how it all goes down.
Update tonight, boys!
Ah, I can see why problems might arise from an army having trouble every time they go into battle!LOLKATS: Well the thing is that the Germans are actually being fairly competent in Scandinavia. It's only when they come into contact with the Soviets do they act more like lovers than fighters.
The 1.4 installer doesn't actually think I have HoI3 installed, so I'll have to go with the last beta version (11).
Update tonight, boys!
Oh really? What version did you get, the installer wouldn't work for my Impulse download version (had to wait for them to post the patch) however it worked just fine from my GamersGate version.
Though the two games aren't compatable for online play together.
However since I have two "keys" I am able to play with my son with the gamersgate version installed on my machine too, though I can't use the sprites I paid for since it seems they are unique to where you buy them (impulse again).
LOLKATS: They're problem is that they don't even show up for the battle! At least as long as it's against the Soviets.
SFCShadow: Oh I have the GG version. However, a few weeks ago I backed everything up, reformated, reinstalled windows 7 and then threw my back up back onto the HD. That included HoI3. So technically HoI3 isn't installed, even though it's there. So basically the patch installer sucks.
Update coming up!
SFCShadow: Oh I have the GG version. However, a few weeks ago I backed everything up, reformated, reinstalled windows 7 and then threw my back up back onto the HD. That included HoI3. So technically HoI3 isn't installed, even though it's there. So basically the patch installer sucks.
Update coming up!
The Year of Returned Hope
Part 4: The Indirect Approach III, April 12 – April 21, 1943
In war, the most important moments are typically its first and its last. The first is important for it gives an indication of the character of the war to be fought. The last is important because it determines the victor. Those moments in the middle, while of course important, remain but the bridge between the first and the last. One possible complaint on the nature of strategic studies as a discipline, both professional and academic, is that it tends to forget the last moments in favor of those middle moments, with the assumption that getting those right will get the last moment right by default. Unfortunately war is not so linear that this works in all but the most exceptional instances. Mussolini, should he even with to try to think of the last moments of the war with the Soviet Union, would be utterly unable to. It was simply impossible to envisage. Was it the Red Army entering Rome? Was it the Regio Esercito holding a defensive line against the Soviets in perpetual vigilance? On an operational level, the focus on first and last moments is just as important, and indeed the last moments of this Italian operation in Illyria were just as shrouded by the fog of war. Thus, to best understand the Italian attack, we can do naught but focus on the first moments and those after them.
The offensive began with four battles: Banja Luka, Knin, Valpovo and Slavonski Brod. A fifth battle was taking place in northern Greece, at Korce, where the Soviets were forcing Bergonzoli’s division back. That battle would end with heavy casualties on both sides: nearly sixteen hundred Italian and eight hundred and fifty Soviet dead. Korce would mark the apogee of Vercellino’s unaided advance into southeastern Europe. Fortunately for the Italian armed forces, the battles in Illyria were much more in their favor. The Soviet defenders of Slavonski Brod and Valpovo both broke and fled within the first thirty hours, leaving behind a cumulative twenty-two hundred dead. The Italians had lost less than six hundred. Banja Luka saw the next breakthrough some hours later, as less then two hundred and fifty Italians traded their lives for those of nearly eleven hundred Soviet soldiers. Valpovo was only stripped of its defenses on the 14th, costing just over one hundred and fifty Italian dead and over seven hundred Soviet dead. Further fighting around Slavonski Brod led to another two hundred and thirty Italian dead and eleven hundred Soviet deaths. As far as first moments go, the first four days of the Italian offensive had proved wildly successful. For the cost of about twelve hundred Italian dead, the Regio Esercito had inflicted over five thousand Soviet casualties and had broken the Soviet frontline in four different locations. It was in the very north of the front that the Italians gained their new positions the quickest, and could thus begin planning their next moves. These new thrusts were planned to secure the Italians’ rear and also encircle another two Soviet divisions to their front though it should be noted that even at this early stage the Soviets were attempting counterattacks, at least to try to rescue encircled comrades.
The Italian offensive rolling forward in the north.
At Sinj, Italian troops got in amongst a Soviet corps headquarters, and for the loss of three soldiers they ravaged the headquarters, killing three hundred and forty Soviet soldiers. Nevertheless, despite such successes, the Soviets were not giving up. In the north, the encircled Soviets had been temporarily relieved by a Soviet armor column that had linked up with them. Italian spearheads had passed the flanks of the two new target divisions and were closing in on their rear but their own lines of supply were completely undefended and thus vulnerable to potential Soviet countermoves. In the center, the Italians were bulling ahead at Travnik, ripping the frayed Soviet defenses to shreds. In the south, however, Pintor’s army had gotten itself encircled. Gambara and Roatta had let their rear go undefended, and some quick-witted Soviet commander saw the opportunity and snatched it, marching his troops across that line of supply. Neither corps commander appeared too worried continued on with their forward thrusts, trusting to comrades behind them to restore the situation.
Encirclements north and south, Soviet and Italian.
Favorable battles continued in Illyria: Travnik resulted in less than three hundred Italian casualties and nearly eleven hundred Soviet deaths. The battle for Udbina, the fight to restore the flow of supplies to Gambara and Roatta, resulted in nearly three hundred and twenty Italian dead and eleven hundred Soviet dead. In Greece, however, Vercellino was being pushed back by the greater weight of Soviet numbers. Nearly eight hundred and fifty Italians died there during the same time span, and opposed to not even three hundred and fifty Soviets. Vercellino was beginning what would be a skilful withdrawal back to Amfissa. Back in Illyria, the front had been broken. The Italians had achieved a deep penetration in the north, where despite some threat to their lines of supply, they were on their way to a second encirclement even though the first had been broken. At the same time, the central Italian thrust had been judged to have reached the end of its useful life and was split in twain. One half moved north, to close the broken encirclement by a bigger encirclement and perhaps ensnare some rescuers as well as the original targets. The other half shifted southward, to close a potential pocket there as well, and link up with Gambara and Roatta. Meanwhile, those two were still encircled, but had reached the Illyrian coastline, allowing Gambara to immediately organize a sealift to bring necessary supplies into Split until logistics could resume by land, which was anticipated to be soon. A handful of Soviet divisions, and a Mongolian division, would be trapped in Zadar.
Despite Soviet resistance, the Italians continued their forward march.
By the evening of the 21st, the Soviets had been encircled again in the north of the Illyrian line. In the center, Italian forces were pushing both north and south in an attempt to close multiple pockets. In the south, the Italians had managed to reopen a line of supply to Gambara and Roatta, and allowed Gambara to begin his assault on the Soviet forces in and around Zadar. Altogether, including encircled divisions, there were perhaps only fifteen Soviet divisions, including headquarters, on the Illyrian front. Discounting encircled divisions drops this number to about ten. There was no doubt that the Soviets were facing a crisis in Illyria. The Soviets recognized this, and significant forces were returning from Greece to attempt to halt the Italian offensive. Due to simple geography, they would be hitting the southern thrust first.
The complete situation in southeastern Europe.
Nevertheless, the Soviets still felt there was a possibility for a meaningful victory in Greece, and thus declined to strip that front of the majority of its troops. For the half-dozen or so Soviet divisions moving northward by the end of this period, there were still perhaps a dozen and a half to two dozen Soviet divisions pressing southward into the unfavorable terrain and geography of Greece. They did not trust Vercellino to keep quiet with only a light force guarding him, probably with good reason.
Part 4: The Indirect Approach III, April 12 – April 21, 1943
In war, the most important moments are typically its first and its last. The first is important for it gives an indication of the character of the war to be fought. The last is important because it determines the victor. Those moments in the middle, while of course important, remain but the bridge between the first and the last. One possible complaint on the nature of strategic studies as a discipline, both professional and academic, is that it tends to forget the last moments in favor of those middle moments, with the assumption that getting those right will get the last moment right by default. Unfortunately war is not so linear that this works in all but the most exceptional instances. Mussolini, should he even with to try to think of the last moments of the war with the Soviet Union, would be utterly unable to. It was simply impossible to envisage. Was it the Red Army entering Rome? Was it the Regio Esercito holding a defensive line against the Soviets in perpetual vigilance? On an operational level, the focus on first and last moments is just as important, and indeed the last moments of this Italian operation in Illyria were just as shrouded by the fog of war. Thus, to best understand the Italian attack, we can do naught but focus on the first moments and those after them.
The offensive began with four battles: Banja Luka, Knin, Valpovo and Slavonski Brod. A fifth battle was taking place in northern Greece, at Korce, where the Soviets were forcing Bergonzoli’s division back. That battle would end with heavy casualties on both sides: nearly sixteen hundred Italian and eight hundred and fifty Soviet dead. Korce would mark the apogee of Vercellino’s unaided advance into southeastern Europe. Fortunately for the Italian armed forces, the battles in Illyria were much more in their favor. The Soviet defenders of Slavonski Brod and Valpovo both broke and fled within the first thirty hours, leaving behind a cumulative twenty-two hundred dead. The Italians had lost less than six hundred. Banja Luka saw the next breakthrough some hours later, as less then two hundred and fifty Italians traded their lives for those of nearly eleven hundred Soviet soldiers. Valpovo was only stripped of its defenses on the 14th, costing just over one hundred and fifty Italian dead and over seven hundred Soviet dead. Further fighting around Slavonski Brod led to another two hundred and thirty Italian dead and eleven hundred Soviet deaths. As far as first moments go, the first four days of the Italian offensive had proved wildly successful. For the cost of about twelve hundred Italian dead, the Regio Esercito had inflicted over five thousand Soviet casualties and had broken the Soviet frontline in four different locations. It was in the very north of the front that the Italians gained their new positions the quickest, and could thus begin planning their next moves. These new thrusts were planned to secure the Italians’ rear and also encircle another two Soviet divisions to their front though it should be noted that even at this early stage the Soviets were attempting counterattacks, at least to try to rescue encircled comrades.
The Italian offensive rolling forward in the north.
At Sinj, Italian troops got in amongst a Soviet corps headquarters, and for the loss of three soldiers they ravaged the headquarters, killing three hundred and forty Soviet soldiers. Nevertheless, despite such successes, the Soviets were not giving up. In the north, the encircled Soviets had been temporarily relieved by a Soviet armor column that had linked up with them. Italian spearheads had passed the flanks of the two new target divisions and were closing in on their rear but their own lines of supply were completely undefended and thus vulnerable to potential Soviet countermoves. In the center, the Italians were bulling ahead at Travnik, ripping the frayed Soviet defenses to shreds. In the south, however, Pintor’s army had gotten itself encircled. Gambara and Roatta had let their rear go undefended, and some quick-witted Soviet commander saw the opportunity and snatched it, marching his troops across that line of supply. Neither corps commander appeared too worried continued on with their forward thrusts, trusting to comrades behind them to restore the situation.
Encirclements north and south, Soviet and Italian.
Favorable battles continued in Illyria: Travnik resulted in less than three hundred Italian casualties and nearly eleven hundred Soviet deaths. The battle for Udbina, the fight to restore the flow of supplies to Gambara and Roatta, resulted in nearly three hundred and twenty Italian dead and eleven hundred Soviet dead. In Greece, however, Vercellino was being pushed back by the greater weight of Soviet numbers. Nearly eight hundred and fifty Italians died there during the same time span, and opposed to not even three hundred and fifty Soviets. Vercellino was beginning what would be a skilful withdrawal back to Amfissa. Back in Illyria, the front had been broken. The Italians had achieved a deep penetration in the north, where despite some threat to their lines of supply, they were on their way to a second encirclement even though the first had been broken. At the same time, the central Italian thrust had been judged to have reached the end of its useful life and was split in twain. One half moved north, to close the broken encirclement by a bigger encirclement and perhaps ensnare some rescuers as well as the original targets. The other half shifted southward, to close a potential pocket there as well, and link up with Gambara and Roatta. Meanwhile, those two were still encircled, but had reached the Illyrian coastline, allowing Gambara to immediately organize a sealift to bring necessary supplies into Split until logistics could resume by land, which was anticipated to be soon. A handful of Soviet divisions, and a Mongolian division, would be trapped in Zadar.
Despite Soviet resistance, the Italians continued their forward march.
By the evening of the 21st, the Soviets had been encircled again in the north of the Illyrian line. In the center, Italian forces were pushing both north and south in an attempt to close multiple pockets. In the south, the Italians had managed to reopen a line of supply to Gambara and Roatta, and allowed Gambara to begin his assault on the Soviet forces in and around Zadar. Altogether, including encircled divisions, there were perhaps only fifteen Soviet divisions, including headquarters, on the Illyrian front. Discounting encircled divisions drops this number to about ten. There was no doubt that the Soviets were facing a crisis in Illyria. The Soviets recognized this, and significant forces were returning from Greece to attempt to halt the Italian offensive. Due to simple geography, they would be hitting the southern thrust first.
The complete situation in southeastern Europe.
Nevertheless, the Soviets still felt there was a possibility for a meaningful victory in Greece, and thus declined to strip that front of the majority of its troops. For the half-dozen or so Soviet divisions moving northward by the end of this period, there were still perhaps a dozen and a half to two dozen Soviet divisions pressing southward into the unfavorable terrain and geography of Greece. They did not trust Vercellino to keep quiet with only a light force guarding him, probably with good reason.
Well, it seems someone at STAVKA has realized that just moving three armies back and forth between Illyria and Greece whenever the Regio Esercito moved in both theaters was not going to save the situation.
I'm interested in knowing the state of the Red Army formations, and in knowing who's in control of the air space.
I'm interested in knowing the state of the Red Army formations, and in knowing who's in control of the air space.
Well so far it looks promising, but say you do shatter the Russian forces, that's an awful lot of open ground yawing in front of you, what then? You don't have the forces for a "boarder" advance, you'll have to dash to bring them to the surrender table and still not sure you have the forces for that. Will be interesting to see how this develops. Or is the goal to just bring them back to the initial contact point (boarder) and hold it this time?
Shadow
Shadow
It would be a victory in itself if the Italians managed to knock out some Soviet divisions, even if they would have to withdraw to their initial lines eventually, given the superior number of Russian formations arranged against Italy. If those encircled formations could be destroyed quickly, the Italians might even have enough time to try to knock out an additional division or two.
What are your CAGs doing at this point?
What are your CAGs doing at this point?
Yeah, if 10+ Russian divisions get wiped it'll be a decent effort even if the front has to be reformed at the start lines.
So I've been holding out buying the game but I am going to pick a used copy on amazon.
But here is my question. Are you controling each division like in HOI2 . I've tried to play the demo and just get confused. I bet I have over hundreds of hours in HOI2, so I am not to much of a noob. Been playing that game since it came out.
BTW I love this thread. I read it everyday.
But here is my question. Are you controling each division like in HOI2 . I've tried to play the demo and just get confused. I bet I have over hundreds of hours in HOI2, so I am not to much of a noob. Been playing that game since it came out.
BTW I love this thread. I read it everyday.
Well judging from this snapshot:
The complete situation in southeastern Europe.
It looks like his CAG's are heavily supporting his alternate approach forces.
Which I'm sure is greatly needed for his heavily outnumbered troops in Greece. I imagine his southern forces in Illyria; may also receive some limited support from the one CAG fleet in that sphere of influence, but I'm betting most if not all of the air support provided by his CAG's are supporting the Grecian effort to cause as much problems for the Russians as possible. Of course I could be all wrong, and Myth will straighten us both out, but I think I'm pretty dead on. How'd I do Myth?
Shadow
Speaking for myself Jonny, I micromanage most of my divisions myself, though I am now (after owning HOI 3 for a few weeks) starting to experiement with controlling corp and to a more limited degree Army HQ's and their attached Divisions (and or Corps through the Army HQ) on a limited basis. The AI acts a bit funny at times, but it is fascinating to watch it in action. As I can imagine pretty quickly who my sharp generals are and who aren't for whatever reasons (whether their general staff isn't very efficient in processing the orders given or if the General controlling various divisions are just - slow / overly independent / overly cautious or just rogue. lol Still trying to get a feel/handle on the commanding through higher headquarters. As history has shown well, not all orders are followed to the letter and no plan survives contact with the enemy. heh
Eventually I'm going to do a campaign where I'm going to try and command the "Troops" only through higher level HQ's with limited "direct hands on" when the AI just does something completely inane (like running to a neighboring country and or port or airfield and then attempt to follow the order given.)
I'm thinking that maybe Myth uses the higher HQ's to move the troops into position (and tweaks by hand for fine tuning) and then perhaps using HQ for initial attack and then "modifies" by hand to refine beyond that, or just directly manages his attacks once the "shooting" starts.
Shadow
It seems the terrain and Italian air power will be the bane of Soviet forces in the Balkans. I guess the enslaved workers and peasants of Italia will have to suffer under the oppression of their capitalist-imperialist-fascist-royalist-conformist-autocratic overlords for a long time before the "liberation" by the communist behemoth and paranoid-homicidal comrade big brother.
It's well worth it.
I missed the first two HOIs, and got to grips with the demo relatively quickly; I think (based on the number of "I played HOI2 to death but I don't get HOI3" comments on here) that some of the new features are just different enough, while looking identical to confuse and bemuse.
It's entirely possible to play the game controlling every division by hand, but if you ignore the command structure you can find yourself struggling.
Theatre level: the skill of the commander reduces the stacking penalty. Stacking penalty is, I gather, new to HOI3, and makes the superstacks, which I understand ruled the battlefronts in 2, obsolete. Stack enough troops together and you hit a "times zero" multiplier. Theatre command won't allow massiv stacks, but can help.
Army Group level: the skill of the commander reduces the supply need of the forces in his AG. Even a few percent stop a large assault bogging down because your forward elements suddenly run out of supply.
Army level: adds to the ORG of the army's components. Again, only marginal, but percent count...
Corps level: here the command structure interacts with the concept of 'combat width' which is probably the most radical of the changes between 2 and 3. In 3 there is a maximum number of units that can fight at any one time. How effectively that 'frontage' is filled depends to quite a large extent (especially in the early game when there aren't any other bonuses) on the skill of your corps commanders.
In addition, the command structure provides you with several ways of selecting groups of troops to give orders to. See my sig
One last thing: officer percentage. It's vital. Once you've got the basics covered, set all your leadership to officers and get your %age to 200. It's a 'gimme'. The benefit is an order of magnitude greater than the same number of points over the same time. If you've been struggling with sub-100 officer ratios, that might have contributed to your confusion.
It's the thread that convinced me to play the game.
Well.
At this stage you're definitely going to cause the Ruskies some serious damage. You didn't give us any "internal" details on the battles, so we don't know what shape the Russian divisions are in. I'm surprised their two medium armoured divisions in the north didn't cause you more hassel (there was a light armoured div there too).
Another glorious victory is in the offing!
At this stage you're definitely going to cause the Ruskies some serious damage. You didn't give us any "internal" details on the battles, so we don't know what shape the Russian divisions are in. I'm surprised their two medium armoured divisions in the north didn't cause you more hassel (there was a light armoured div there too).
Another glorious victory is in the offing!
Lordban: I don't really know what the state of the Soviet divisions are, on this offensive I'm post the point where I really keep track of individual battles and just make sure the whole offensive gone on smoothly. As for the airspace, it's mostly empty.
SFCShadow: Every Italian would need superhuman speed to bring them to the negotiation table! I just want to smack their army up a bit.
Forster: Yep, the east is a scary place. It's where all those Soviets live!
Baltasar: My CAGs are mostly flying around in northern Greece. It's far too much of a pain to manage them so I'll let them fly around until they get too goddamn annoying and then ground them.
Jemisi: Oh, I'm hoping for a more than decent effort.
Jonny5tyle: Yeah, I control every division. With such high stakes, I don't think I could afford not to. If you remember back to the Abyssinia campaign, I let the AI control that and you can see how that turned out. That said, I think half of that was my fault anyway, so I wouldn't judge the AI too harshly on that basis alone.
SFCShadow: Well I've been toying with the idea of operational interdiction, as the Allies historically did before and during the Normandy campaign. Prevent the enemy from being able to easily get in or out of the area. Unfortunately, it does't seem to work as well in game. Granted, on the one hand I don't have enough planes probably, but on the other goddamnit my aviators are something really retarded.
SFCShadow: Nope, I do everything myself. I'm old school.
cthulhu: Haha, yes indeed!
womble: I wonder how many people I've inadvertently convinced by now.
hoikof: I don't really know what state they're in either, to be honest. As for their armored divisions, I think it's because of the nature of my attack and the AI. On the one hand with breakthrough attacks like this, the best defense is usually to stand firm at the shoulders and eventually the attack kind of peters out, as it can't widen the initial penetration into a full-blown torrent through and behind the front. On the other hand, I started with four separate attacks and breakthroughs, leading to ideally four or five different encirclements. Holding the shoulders won't work, and even if the AI is competent enough to do that in the case of one penetration it clearly isn't the thing to do now, so the AI's more in survival mode--just get the hell out of the Italians' way!
SFCShadow: Every Italian would need superhuman speed to bring them to the negotiation table! I just want to smack their army up a bit.
Forster: Yep, the east is a scary place. It's where all those Soviets live!
Baltasar: My CAGs are mostly flying around in northern Greece. It's far too much of a pain to manage them so I'll let them fly around until they get too goddamn annoying and then ground them.
Jemisi: Oh, I'm hoping for a more than decent effort.
Jonny5tyle: Yeah, I control every division. With such high stakes, I don't think I could afford not to. If you remember back to the Abyssinia campaign, I let the AI control that and you can see how that turned out. That said, I think half of that was my fault anyway, so I wouldn't judge the AI too harshly on that basis alone.
SFCShadow: Well I've been toying with the idea of operational interdiction, as the Allies historically did before and during the Normandy campaign. Prevent the enemy from being able to easily get in or out of the area. Unfortunately, it does't seem to work as well in game. Granted, on the one hand I don't have enough planes probably, but on the other goddamnit my aviators are something really retarded.
SFCShadow: Nope, I do everything myself. I'm old school.
cthulhu: Haha, yes indeed!
womble: I wonder how many people I've inadvertently convinced by now.
hoikof: I don't really know what state they're in either, to be honest. As for their armored divisions, I think it's because of the nature of my attack and the AI. On the one hand with breakthrough attacks like this, the best defense is usually to stand firm at the shoulders and eventually the attack kind of peters out, as it can't widen the initial penetration into a full-blown torrent through and behind the front. On the other hand, I started with four separate attacks and breakthroughs, leading to ideally four or five different encirclements. Holding the shoulders won't work, and even if the AI is competent enough to do that in the case of one penetration it clearly isn't the thing to do now, so the AI's more in survival mode--just get the hell out of the Italians' way!