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This is sweet. Egypt is as good as overran by the Italians and the British Mediterranean fleet is nearly big enough to cover the entire Mediterranean itself. It's obvious that it has to be removed soon, otherwise your ships won't have any water left to swim in. :D
 
A quick question about this - and the implications.

Is what you're saying that, as opposed to building up a strategy from the conventional building blocks - in this case if you want naval control over the E Med you either have the biggest fleet or you deny the enemy naval access (Alexander's strategy of defeating a superior naval power by taking all their ports?) - all that matters is you get what you want (ie unhindered control)? And, in this case, the outcome of a passive RN is no better or worse than destroying it?

Of Course..As long as it stays passive..Destroying them means they cannot later go active..:rolleyes:
 
Probably because the lowest skilled German commander has 2 skill levels!

Actually later in the game Germany gets alot of Generals with 1 or 0 skill. About 1943 on the mediocre ones appear.

Italian Leaders: Aside from a few leaders who were given a lower skill then they deserved (Messe for one, the guy was a max skill of 9 if ever I saw one, along with the Defensive Doctrine and Logistics Wizard traits, but no he is skill 4 with a max of 8, and only gets Panzer Leader. There are others aswell, but most of you probably would not have heard of them unless you are Italian), the much maligned Italian leader pool isn't really that bad.
You get alot of leaders with multiple traits (Old Guard dosen't count), and a good amount of the leaders are skill 1 or 2.

As I mentioned before, their skills and traits may have been watered down a bit, but they really are a good bunch.
 
womble: Well, I know for a fact that Haifa is out of range for my planes as they are at the moment. :p

loki100: Well Mahanian theory is largely predicated on concentrating, seeking out the enemy navy and achieving a decisive battle. Corbettian theory, on the other hand, realizes that this just isn't a viable strategy. Unlike on land, at sea it is much easier to avoid battle: the enemy can even not leave port, and thus stay safe (obviously written before air power had become as powerful as it has). Even if it does put to sea, the enemy fleet could easily avoid the concentration of your own fleet forces. Topping all this off, control of the sea isn't a zero sum game. Rather, the typical condition of the sea is uncontrolled, with actual control only being temporary and local. Thus hostile control is only dangerous when it interferes with what the seas are most important for: the maritime lines of communication. Thus if I can safeguard these lines of communication without fighting a decisive battle then there is no reason to fight such a battle and, further, attempting to do so anyway always chances the risk of defeat and actually putting those lines of communication at risk! Of course, in my particular case if I cut the escape route of the Mediterranean Fleet then I'll have to destroy them some time as they'd have nowhere to go but to where it could annoy me most, but not necessary by fleet battle. Does this answer your question?

anweRU: Yep, neutrality is the key. I didn't really do much with neutrality for the entire first year, probably because I didn't at first realize its importance. So it was quite lucky that the SCW came so late. AOI stands for Afrika Occidentale Italiene (Italian East Africa). Your Giorgis sounds like an awesome general now though! What's he at, 2.5? 3.5? Not quite as good as Messe still, though. ;) Looking forward to hearing more of your game as you play it, sounds like good fun!

Sokraates: Yes, there are so many RN ships in the Med that their combined water displacement has raised the sea's water level by half a meter! :eek:

BlitzMartinDK: Yep, that's the one advantage to winning a battle. You're (ideally) destroying enemy property that won't come back to haunt you later. :D

Maj. von Mauser: Hehe actually Italian leaders are much improved in HoI3 vanilla over HoI2 vanilla. Paradox had used a lot of the improvements from HoI2's CILMP, which made their way over into HoI3. So Messe does certainly have defensive doctrine. Zingales is also someone to watch out for, having logistics wizard, offensive doctrine and panzer leader. And so on. :p

I'll try to have an update for tomorrow evening, gents!
 
Thank you - yes that does clarify quite a lot. I have a real problem with understanding naval strategy - I think because fundamentally its not about establishing control as you do on the land, but this gives a useful way to think about what you really want to achieve.
 
I thought I had missed just a few updates, seems that I have missed the most decisive battles in this AAR! The situation af the Brits is dire indeed.

Glad to see Corbett get some credit, paradoxally Mahan became outdated as soon as the dreadnought was invented. They where too expensive and symbolic to risk losing in a decisive engagement. But enough mumbo-jumbo, good luck in the Middle East.
 
Maj. von Mauser: Hehe actually Italian leaders are much improved in HoI3 vanilla over HoI2 vanilla. Paradox had used a lot of the improvements from HoI2's CILMP, which made their way over into HoI3. So Messe does certainly have defensive doctrine. Zingales is also someone to watch out for, having logistics wizard, offensive doctrine and panzer leader. And so on.


Well, that shows you how often I play HoI3, I like HoI2 much better.

I guess I'll fire up my copy and see what else has been done.
 
80 British ships?! Does that include the usual oversized complement of transports? Even so, that's an impressive array of forces. Enjoy bombing it out of the water. :)

Good job in Egypt. Do you already know where you want your (preferably easily defensible) borders to be?
 
loki100: Hehe, the irony with that statement is that the idea of control first appeared with naval strategy and it seems was only transplanted over to land warfare, and strategy generally, by the second and third generation of naval scholars, working in the 1940s to 1960s, a transfer which was then promptly neglected. Though on second thought I think I see where you're coming from. But in the development of theory, control began as a largely naval concept. :p

FlyingDutchie: Well, claiming Mahan became obsolete with the dreadnought is a bit unfair. Mahan inspired the major naval strategies of the Second World War, particularly those of the USA and Japan. IIRC China is now looking to Mahan for guidance on its own emergent blue-water navy. Etc. Really, Mahan was reinforced by the advent of dreadnought as suddenly any naval battle was bound to be relatively decisive in a way it wouldn't necessarily be during the age of sail. It's just that the uncertainty and chance of war that Clausewitz identified so well scared everyone. ;)

Maj. von Mauser: Hehe. :p

Stuyvesant: There is at least one transport. Don't really know enough to say more than that. :p

I'll try to have that update for tonight!
 
Did I just read:

ITALIAN CARRIERS SANK THE HOOD? :rofl:

Shame on the Brits! That WILL be a huge furor for whoever's in charge of government!
 
The Year Italy Joined the World War
Part 13: Operations Caesar Augustus and Vespasian, November 22 – December 5, 1940

The period of two weeks from November 22 to December 5 saw Caesar Augustus winding down to a close in most ways, with many of the forces involved being transferred over to the newly begun Operation Vespasian. British resistance on the ground was everywhere fairly light, or even nearly nonexistent, though the Mediterranean Fleet seemed to be growing for at least part of the time period, seemingly gaining another two carriers, the HMS Furious and Eagle, as well as at least one more battleship, the Malaya. This would go far to provoking Mussolini’s cautious strategy regarding the defeat of the Mediterranean Fleet.

On the 22nd of November, the final stages of the main part of Operation Caesar Augustus began, as two of Vercellino’s corps—Cei’s mobile corps, minus Bergonzoli, and Geloso’s infantry—commenced clearing the Nile delta of a British presence. This presence consisted of two infantry divisions, dug in along a multitude of inlets and rivulets. Vercellino’s plan was simply a two-pronged attack, one by Cei’s cavalry and the other by the infantry. The battles would go on for just over a week but there was only one real end in sight regardless. The British, isolated and with no chance of reinforcements, were defeated after suffering sixteen hundred casualties. The Egyptian coast had been completely secured by the 1st of December, and no British troops remained in Egypt except upriver, to the south.

056-01-ClearingtheDelta.jpg

Vercellino’s push to clear the Nile Delta.

As the battles in the north were taking place, Dall’Ora was pushing his corps deeper into Egypt’s southern reaches. Dall’Ora was simply looking for a good place to stop, though there were hints emanating from Vercellino that this would only be once Eritrea was reached—and, importantly, Port Sudan taken from the British to prevent them from easily supplying a potential future counteroffensive. This was a large task for only three divisions, but on the other hand the only British presence to their south that they knew of and which was directly in front of them was only a British corps headquarters, likely that which was in ostensible command of the British forces in the Delta. Operation Caesar Augustus would end only when a defensible position had been attained.

056-02-PushingUpRiver.jpg

Dall’Ora’s corps pushing upriver.

Even as these battles and advances were going on in Egypt, the Regia Marina had pursued the Mediterranean Fleet to Tel Aviv [author’s note: prior mention of Haifa was incorrect.] It seems that the British had more sense than to flee to Malta, but not enough to flee the sea altogether. An enormous amount of ships populated the harbor there, a great many of them transports. Campioni’s carrier wings attacked the Mediterranean Fleet in port, though with limited success. The sheer amount of ships meant that there was an enormous amount of flak in the air, and the carrier pilots suffered heavily. Nonetheless they could confirm that varying amounts of damage had been done to the battleships HMS Resolution and Malaya, whose presence had been previously unconfirmed, as well as the battlecruiser Repulse. The fleet carrier HMS Furious, also whose presence was also previously unconfirmed, however, escaped damage. By this point, what British ships actually were in the Mediterranean and which were not was a matter of some confusion, and no one, not even Mussolini, knew what proportion of the British capital ship fleet was present.

056-03-RaidingTelAviv.jpg

Campioni’s carrier pilots, commanded by Briganti, raiding Tel Aviv.

Also in late November, Operation Vespasian began. Vespasian represented an outgrowth of Caesar Augustus, but a necessary one, for Bergonzoli finally managed to cross the Suez Canal at Bir Gifgafa. In Vespasian’s initial stages, while fighting still raged in the Nile Delta, Bergonzoli’s one division was the sole one dedicated to the operation. His task was to secure the entire eastern bank of the Canal. This would secure the Canal for Italian use and allow future Italian reinforcements to cross it without a hitch. The Mediterranean Fleet was about to be trapped, permanently, in its namesake sea. It was a hostile sea.

056-04-VespasianBegins.jpg

Operation Vespasian begins, humbly.

By the 1st of December, the Delta had been cleared. Dall’Ora’s corps was also expanding its operations to the south, pushing along the Red Sea coast and up the Nile River. British resistance was localized and very weak: only that single corps headquarters was present to try to defend British colonial possessions against the Italian advance. Operation Caesar Augustus had but one aim left to accomplish, now that the Delta was secure and the Suez Canal crossed: to attain a defensible southern position. Vercellino dedicated only Dall’Ora’s corps to that task, sending Geloso’s and Cei’s corps eastward to join Vespasian.

056-05-CaesarAugustusContinues.jpg

Caesar Augustus continues, albeit in reduced form.

Vespasian, now reinforced by three cavalry and three infantry divisions, took on its own life at last. Bergonzoli’s division was out in the vanguard, and was tasked to push toward Gaza. Of Cei’s three cavalry divisions, two were sent to invest Tel Aviv from the south and one sent on a torturous route south into the Sinai Peninsula before crossing over into the Transjordan and securing that area. Geloso’s infantry was still entering into the new area of operations and did not have any missions set out for them yet. Mussolini’s and Vercellino’s basic plan with Vespasian was to secure all of Palestine and the Transjordan and hit up against the Iraqi frontier. Iraq had so far remained neutral in the war, thus allowing for a natural stopping point. Tel Aviv would not be attacked immediately. Its garrison was believed to consist of at least two divisions, though this was not important. Instead, Mussolini wished to conduct a naval and aerial siege of the port, destroying the Mediterranean Fleet while in harbor rather than risking his ships, particularly his capital ships which were so few and so expensive, in open battle.

056-06-PlanforVespasian.jpg

The plan for the first phase of Operation Vespasian.

In addition to everything mentioned, at sea there was a further slow attrition of naval assets on both sides. Italy during this period lost two submarine flotillas, making for three since the beginning of the war, but inflicted on the British in return the loss of a light cruiser. Given Mussolini’s attitude toward submarines, he was essentially using them as an emergency picket line, they were essentially doing their job of making contact with the enemy, distracting them and partly even keeping them in port. However, it would require a much quicker rate of destruction for the Mediterranean Fleet to be incapacitated any time soon.
 
Does anyone know if you need to keep a garrison in Suez and Gibraltar to keep those sea lanes blocked, or is that a bug that some people report that the enemy can slip through?
 
Excellent going. It's funny to see North Africa nearly bare of British troops. Do you know where they are? Maybe in HoI3 the AI no longer sends all forces abroad but instead bunkers down on the home islands.

In any case good luck with the Mediterranean Fleet. If it should ever come out to play ...

By the way: will the fleet receive supplies once you've isolated Tel Aviv? I'm unfortunately not familiar with the new HoI3 supply system.
 
The British fleet should still receive supplies, as long as there is a port to which convoys can go to. However, the more damaged the port, the less supplies & fuel it can take.

Myth: As for the whereabout of the British Army, did you fix the Channel Islands bug? i.e. delete the crossing between the Islands and the main land? If not, all of the British Army is there in one giant superstack, glaring at the German superstack across the straits... If so, you might as well take advantage of the situation and invade Britain itself!

I removed that connection in my game, so an Italian campaign will (probably) be more difficult. I'm actually contemplating an alternative pro-British strategy anyway. It will be a few days before I can play a session and get past April'37.
 
A pro British Italian AAR would be Very Interesting. However, I feel that eventually this AAR will take on an anti German tone.


Good work, Suez secured! To be honest, stepping out side the imaginary boundaries of the AAR, I am dissapointed in the British AI. I was already dissapointed with HoI3, and it's AI, but this is pathetic. Yugoslavia gave you much more trouble then the British have so far. Either way, you are making great progress.
 
Your pilots will be hard pressed to identify any sinkings in Tel Aviv - I don't think there's enough room in that harbor for any ship to go under!

The British response is a bit disappointing. It raises the question: where is their army? Perhaps a quick load as the UK could shed some light on this?

So, puppet Iraq and neutral Saudi Arabia will be your borders in the Middle East, while things along the Upper Nile are not completely settled yet. Watch out for mission creep there. :p

Maj. von Mauser, if you want to see a more impressive AI display, you should take a look at B'aar Baa Red Sheep by loki100. He took the Russians and faced the German onslaught in 1941. It's now 1942 and he's winning (very, very slowly), but the Germans gave him a good run for the money.
 
quetzilla: Because they're not needed in the race to Suez. Suez is already reached, by Bergonzoli. It just needed to be crossed, which isn't something more cavalry divisions will help with. :p

Pier: I have no idea. :p

Sokraates: I don't actually know either. This AAR, as it title suggests, still has a very exploratory nature. :p

anweRU: Hmm, I didn't know about that bug. Do you know whether it's been fixed in 1.3? Where would I even begin looking to fix it, if it 1.3 hasn't affected it? Also, upon loading up as Britain quickly, there's no superstack, so that's a good sign. :p

Maj. von Mauser: I'm not particularly much impressed either, to be honest! I don't think the AI has read Corbett, or even Mahan. :p

Stuyvesant: After a quick load as Britain I'm still not sure where their army is! A third to half of it is in Britain, and the rest of it seems to be scattered across the empire on garrison duty. Which is really quite bad. :wacko:
 
Channel island bug issue is in this thread:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=443504

It's not fixed with 1.3. Best solution I found was on post #31. It works, but I guess bug reason is that AI tends to send more and more troops where it has some out of supply troops. So we can sometimes find some Japanese superstacks at Shanghai, or at any strategic port.

In this AAR, I guess there's no British superstack at Channel islands. It's 1.1 and 1.2 patch, so maybe UK built hundreds transport ships instead of infantry....