+ Reply to Thread
Page 159 of 161 FirstFirst ... 59 84 109 134 149 157 158 159 160 161 LastLast
Results 3,161 to 3,180 of 3219

Thread: Explorations in Strategy - Italy at War

  1. #3161
    Enewald Enewald's Avatar
    54 games registered

    54

    200k clubArsenal of DemocracyHearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonCrusader Kings IIDarkest Hour
    Deus VultDungeonlandEast India Company CollectionEU3 CompleteDivine Wind
    For The GloryFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHearts of Iron III CollectionHOI3: Their Finest Hour
    Heir to the ThroneImpireEuropa Universalis III: In NomineIron CrossLeviathan: Warships
    The Kings CrusadeMajesty II CollectionMarch of the EaglesEU3 Napoleon's AmbitionVictoria: Revolutions
    Europa Universalis: RomeRome GoldSemper FiSengokuVictoria 2
    Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of DarknessRome: Vae VictisWarlock: Master of the ArcaneWar of the Roses
    EU Rome Collectors EditionEU3 Collectors Edition500k clubEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-orderEUIV: Wealth of Nations
    EUIV: Conquest of ParadiseEUIV: Res PublicaCrusader Kings II: Legacy of RomeCrusader Kings II: Sword of IslamCrusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
    Crusader Kings II: The RepublicCrusader Kings II: The Old GodsCrusader Kings II: Sons of AbrahamCrusader Kings II: Rajas of IndiaEUIV: Art of War

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Enewald
    Posts
    23,057
    One of the most intriguing AARs I have read.
    A must read for all HoI3-tacticians.
    So much commies-bashing, so delicious.

    Thank you for your great work.

  2. #3162
    Lt. General Jemisi's Avatar
    Hearts of Iron III

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    1,631
    Quote Originally Posted by reis91 View Post
    Grand strategy for dummies
    A bit more sophisticated than that I think.

  3. #3163
    Field Marshal reis91's Avatar
    Europa Universalis: ChroniclesFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIISemper Fi500k club
    Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Somewhere in time
    Posts
    4,056
    Quote Originally Posted by Jemisi View Post
    A bit more sophisticated than that I think.
    Ye, was joking, it's not everyday where you see an AAR spanning artistic movements and military conceptualization, intertwining both of them to produce such a piece.
    Come and hunt your fellow Paradoxians in the Werewolf Forum

    What this means is that no one technically voted on the first day and we have all been auto-lynched. Since none of us were following ghost rules from that point forward, we are all banned from werewolf for life. - Cymsdale

  4. #3164
    Field Marshal loki100's Avatar
    Rome GoldWarlock: Master of the ArcanePride of NationsRise of PrussiaCK2: Holy Knight

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    7,562
    really fascinating piece ... so much to agree with, so much to pick apart (or at least query). Maybe because I come at this from a different perspective, I still suspect any formal definition of the goal of strategy tends to underplay the practicalities, with the latter being much messier, much more informed by what looks like luck (but is in fact usually a carefully constructed in built advantage) and of course pure opportunism.

    one other question ... it would make sense for a nineteenth century theoretician to see the individual battle as the point of (temporary) resolution, armies didn't tend to fight continuously or across wide fronts, both sides tended to move to a point of concentration etc. Even if battle tended to be inconclusive (such as often in the American Civil War?) it was still a recognisable point. Is the leap to seeing an operational campaign in the twentieth century in much the same way little other than a recognition that a combination of mobility and civilian armies (so much larger), meant that active combat spread out much wider. If so:

    Carl von Clausewitz as the use of engagements for the purpose of policy. ... In its strictest sense, in fact, Clausewitz’s definition of strategy was out of date.
    is perhaps a little harsh (even with your carefully worded phrase in there).

    Great stuff again ...
    Remember, whatever the question, the answer on 18 September is Yes ...

  5. #3165
    Colonel WhisperingDeath's Avatar
    HoI AnthologyEuropa Universalis 3

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    at your six
    Posts
    1,076
    With apologies to the title of this fascinating and enjoyable AAR; and with all due respect to your academic precis of the definition of "strategy", I must beg to differ as to your conclusion. There was no Italian "strategy", rather there was operational aptitude. Please, I don't mean to insult your work in this AAR in any way. I think you played far better than I am able under similar circumstances. It's just that there was no grand design to implement Italian goals across the map of the world (nothwithstanding the writings of the author). Frankly, if I want that approach I read Kanitatlan's AARs. I read Myth AAR because they are more fluid and strike me as more "real" and attainable. But that's just my .02c.
    Be a craftsman in speech, thou mayest be strong, the tongue is a sword to a man, and speech is more valorous than any fighting.... Instruction for King Merikare of ancient Egypt

    Awarded 2 Bronze Stars by Kanitatlan and 1 Silver Star

  6. #3166
    Corporal Tribal's Avatar
    200k clubArsenal of DemocracyCities in MotionCrusader Kings IICommander: Conquest of the Americas
    Darkest HourEU3 CompleteHearts of Iron IIIHeir to the ThroneIron Cross
    Victoria: RevolutionsSemper FiSword of the Stars IIVictoria 2

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Middlesboro, Ky
    Posts
    36
    Thanks for the Great AAR Myth, look forward to reading the next one. Will be watching for it!

  7. #3167
    Quote Originally Posted by WhisperingDeath View Post
    With apologies to the title of this fascinating and enjoyable AAR; and with all due respect to your academic precis of the definition of "strategy", I must beg to differ as to your conclusion. There was no Italian "strategy", rather there was operational aptitude.
    I have to disagree, there. At least initially, the strategy was "Contest with the British Empire for widespread Imperial hegemony," and the tech focus on early aircraft carriers (which, IMO, cost Mussolini his conquest of Russia) was entirely devoted to supporting that strategy, and it was prosecuted in theatres which bore upon British interests. Only with the insane German decision to bring Russia into the war was that strategy replaced by "Neutralise Russia in order to survive as a nation."

  8. #3168
    Field Marshal Baltasar's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIDarkest HourEU3 CompleteFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron III
    Heir to the ThroneKing Arthur IIMagickaMarch of the EaglesSemper Fi
    SengokuSword of the StarsSword of the Stars IIStarvoidMount & Blade: Warband
    Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    3,922
    Blog Entries
    1
    Even then the CAG groups could have been used to greater effect. The Italian Navy sat idle ever since the Black Sea Fleet had been beaten and the Russian land formations being beaten further inland. The logical step would have been to rebase them inland an use them from there. They're not particularily good in that environment but certainly better than nothing. If anything, they could contest the airspace, thereby alleviating the lack of other means to protect the Italian formations.

    Then we have the troops stationed in secondary theatres. It might be against the narrative but since the AI never tried to land in any of these locations, they could have been called upon, too. Every single Italian unit could have made a difference, as we can see from the very close run for Moskow.

    Thirdly, there are the shortcomings of the German AI. The front had been a stalemate for years and when Italy ran out of viable targets in the Med, thanks to the looming threat in the north, it might have been useful to support the German front and try to punch a hole in the Russian lines, so the German AI finally wakes up and tries to exploit it.

    The initial aim to pacify the Med was valid and actually achieved, but then the Italians were caught unprepared for the war with Russia and the German inability to persue it's chosen course.

  9. #3169
    Strategy Cognoscenti Demi Moderator Myth's Avatar
    Hearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonDeus VultHearts of Iron IIIEuropa Universalis III: In NomineMagicka
    EU3 Napoleon's AmbitionSemper Fi

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    7,275
    Stuyvesant: Mostly protecting Suez. Africa has the misfortune of being a sort of strategic bottomless pit with a heart of darkness. Not the best place to try to wage a war.

    Khanwulf: Nah, I said nothing here that was overly interesting.

    reis91: I didn't say much on grand strategy either.

    Enewald: It was fun!

    Jemisi: Nahhh.

    reis91: Maybe so, maybe so.

    loki100: I agree that definitions of strategy tend to be on the rationalist side of things, thus downplaying the other two sides of the trinity that Clausewitz posited: irrationality, and nonrationality. Concerning your latter Clausewitzian point, it may have possibly been a bit harsh. But I believe I allow for the opportunity to conceptualize operations as engagements later. I know others have worked to try to fit operations into the Clausewitizian mould, and some accuse Clausewitz of having conceived of the operational level of war! The latter particularly is bizarre.

    WhisperingDeath: Most of the people I referred to were actual practitioners of strategy, with hands-on experience. Jomini and Clausewitz of course were highly experienced by the Napoleonic Wars. Beaufre retired as a French General with experience in WW2, Indochina and Algeria. Wylie retired as a rear admiral, having had experience in the Pacific during WW2 and having been posted to all sorts of other naval tasks. Gray worked for the Reagan administration in arms control and matters of nuclear strategy, in a position that required senate confirmation. So their words carry a good amount of weight.

    It'd actually be interesting to try to figure out where this strange idea that strategy has to be a great design first originated. I'd bet it's from some discipline which isn't particularly related to strategic studies but bastardized some of its concepts, like economics. I had the misfortune of reading a book on economic strategy once, mostly 'cause it seemed interesting at the time. It had the most rationalist definition of strategy I had ever seen, quite along the lines of the one you provide, of strategy being an overall plan etc. But that good had exactly one good idea, and the rest of it was mumbo jumbo and had some of the sloppiest thinking I've ever seen. Anyway, the point is that a plan does not a strategy make, nor does strategy require an explicit plan. Strategy serves policy. Policy does tend to have some sort of overarching vision. What was mine? To make Italy great, lead it into a position from which it could dominate Europe (and possibly the world). In this vein, should I conquer Switzerland? What about Greece or Turkey? In the end, I conquered the latter two but not the former. But really, those were just details. Minor details. Important details when it comes to the conduct of operations mind you, but still minor.

    So strategy is not merely a plan, nor is a mere plan anything related to strategy. One of the common threads in virtually all strategic works and even within definitions of strategy is the ends/means dichotomy. You have a certain set of ends, of objectives, you want to achieve, and you have another set of means you can try to achieve them with. You have to match means to ends, and ends to means--no fighting to achieve ends beyond your means and all that. You thus may have set ends and set means, but the way is largely unknown. After all, the enemy is also intelligent and is also using strategy and is actively trying to thwart you and advance himself. Thus you cannot really define the way you apply means to ends with any great precision, although doing so is a favorite activity of peacetime militaries. The purpose of exercises that develop the ways of waging war are less for the plans, but more to develop strategic sense and insight. What sort of actions might bring the greatest strategic effect? If thwarted this way or that way, how might one adapt to continue achieving the desired strategic effect? Etc. Of the definitions I provided, Wylie's is in fact the closest to your conception of strategy, but he too would agree that a plan is not enough to be called a strategy. His exact words were "[a] plan of action designed in order to achieve some end; a purpose together with a system of measures for its accomplishment." The means-ends relationship is more important to strategy than plans. Virtually no definition of strategy ignores the means-ends relationship, while many ignore the plans aspect. It's just that plans are good tools to help illuminate the means-ways-ends trichotomy.

    Tribal: Don't watch too hard, it'll be a little while yet. The new patch will apparently be released in the new year, and I would no doubt wait on that.

    womble: Indeed, the insertion of another enemy did upset my ideas of who my main enemy would be to a significant extent. Well, strategy has to adapt.

    Baltasar: Yeah the CAGs sat idle to a lage extent. This is primarily because using air units is a goddamn pain in the ass. As for secondary theaters, I stripped them as much as I could. I left only enough formations in Spain to hold the ports, and enough divisions in Africa to deter the Belgians, British and South Africans from advancing. A total of ten or so divisions, the other 70-80 being in the East. And I think the shortcomings of the German AI were a central theme of the latter half of the AAR.
    Read about my full body of AAR works here!

    Fan of the Week 13/08/09

  10. #3170
    Field Marshal reis91's Avatar
    Europa Universalis: ChroniclesFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIISemper Fi500k club
    Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Somewhere in time
    Posts
    4,056
    Good to see someone shares my view on most works in economics . Too bad I still have to read them, for study, though...

    But Myth, while most of your AAR approaches operational strategy, you cannot fail to acknowledge that some of your decisions imply great strategy. For instance, while controlling Turkey was part of your operational strategy to control your "Mare Clausum", it was chosen also due to it's strategic location for future operations, like the ones you conducted around Azerbaijan. Other examples were your approach to power projection, that, I, layman as I am, still regard that as grand strategy, noting also that it really has no ends implied by itself, those ends come, like you said, from policy.
    Come and hunt your fellow Paradoxians in the Werewolf Forum

    What this means is that no one technically voted on the first day and we have all been auto-lynched. Since none of us were following ghost rules from that point forward, we are all banned from werewolf for life. - Cymsdale

  11. #3171
    Lt. General BlitzMartinDK's Avatar
    HoI AnthologyEuropa Universalis: ChroniclesHearts of Iron IIILost Empire - ImmortalsEuropa Universalis: Rome
    Victoria 2

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Sønderborg, Denmark
    Posts
    1,562
    The only thing I am still wondering about, is why you didn't walk over that english fleet in the med? As far as I know, it shouldn't be able to get out of the med after you have both sides of suez, and Gibraltar ..and of course Bosporus...would have been embarrasing to see it fueled by Soviet oil, in the black sea .
    Once upon a time there was a slight chance of capturing a ship by taking the port it was in..Could have been funny to get some new italian ships that way..

    I am quite certain that the use of the CAG's on dry land might have been useful..Its just not certain that it would have won the war. And they DO use some supplies, just waiting in an airfield re-orging after a transfer. And that usage might also have had an impact...

    About reserves in spain etc. : Just because the Allies didn't land there, doesn't mean they wouldn't have done so, if no defense had been present!

  12. #3172
    Field Marshal reis91's Avatar
    Europa Universalis: ChroniclesFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIISemper Fi500k club
    Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Somewhere in time
    Posts
    4,056
    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzMartinDK View Post
    About reserves in spain etc. : Just because the Allies didn't land there, doesn't mean they wouldn't have done so, if no defense had been present!
    Yeah, cause D-Day didn't face concentrations of german divs on the beaches... anyway, SF should improve that
    Come and hunt your fellow Paradoxians in the Werewolf Forum

    What this means is that no one technically voted on the first day and we have all been auto-lynched. Since none of us were following ghost rules from that point forward, we are all banned from werewolf for life. - Cymsdale

  13. #3173
    Lt. General BlitzMartinDK's Avatar
    HoI AnthologyEuropa Universalis: ChroniclesHearts of Iron IIILost Empire - ImmortalsEuropa Universalis: Rome
    Victoria 2

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Sønderborg, Denmark
    Posts
    1,562
    Quote Originally Posted by reis91 View Post
    Yeah, cause D-Day didn't face concentrations of german divs on the beaches... anyway, SF should improve that
    ..maybe, just maybe, the allies in the real world would have PREFERRED to face nobody on the beaches of normandy! -like in operation Torch, where resistence on the beaches was slightly less than in Normandy....:" end sarkasm"

  14. #3174
    Field Marshal reis91's Avatar
    Europa Universalis: ChroniclesFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIISemper Fi500k club
    Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Somewhere in time
    Posts
    4,056
    But they still sacrificed thousands of lives to land there... point being, that a daring AI is good, even if it sometimes butchers their forces in less-than-perfect operations. Right now, just the odds from stacking penalty are enough to dissuade their landings with minimal force.
    Come and hunt your fellow Paradoxians in the Werewolf Forum

    What this means is that no one technically voted on the first day and we have all been auto-lynched. Since none of us were following ghost rules from that point forward, we are all banned from werewolf for life. - Cymsdale

  15. #3175
    Lt. General BlitzMartinDK's Avatar
    HoI AnthologyEuropa Universalis: ChroniclesHearts of Iron IIILost Empire - ImmortalsEuropa Universalis: Rome
    Victoria 2

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Sønderborg, Denmark
    Posts
    1,562
    Quote Originally Posted by reis91 View Post
    But they still sacrificed thousands of lives to land there... point being, that a daring AI is good, even if it sometimes butchers their forces in less-than-perfect operations. Right now, just the odds from stacking penalty are enough to dissuade their landings with minimal force.
    ..well.. the original point (of Baltasar, this page) was, that Myth should have removed more/all troops from spain (secondary theatres), to support the thrust on Moscow. My point was, that even though the AI didn't attack the guarded beaches in Spain, that does not prove it wouldn't have landed there, if those beaches had NOT been guarded...Hope I got all my double negatives correct in that sentence

  16. #3176
    Captain mankle30's Avatar
    For the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourSemper FiEuropa Universalis IV

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    485
    I think that SF, and 2.03c in particular, is much better for allied landings.... I'm not quite there in the postings for my own AAR, which could be seen as "inspired by Myth" if played on SF, with better German AI, but the Allies attempt landings several times at several places. I've also been playing a Germany campaign on Hard with SF 2.03c and the allies are trying to land behind my lines, even while the fight still rages for France!

    So I think this shows the improvement in Allied AI between HOI3 1.4 and SF!

  17. #3177
    Field Marshal reis91's Avatar
    Europa Universalis: ChroniclesFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIISemper Fi500k club
    Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Somewhere in time
    Posts
    4,056
    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzMartinDK View Post
    ..well.. the original point (of Baltasar, this page) was, that Myth should have removed more/all troops from spain (secondary theatres), to support the thrust on Moscow. My point was, that even though the AI didn't attack the guarded beaches in Spain, that does not prove it wouldn't have landed there, if those beaches had NOT been guarded...Hope I got all my double negatives correct in that sentence
    Yeah, I was kinda justifying (or condemning) AI behavior based on historical evidence, since this AAR tries to achieve somewhat realistic operations. But yes, got your point.
    Come and hunt your fellow Paradoxians in the Werewolf Forum

    What this means is that no one technically voted on the first day and we have all been auto-lynched. Since none of us were following ghost rules from that point forward, we are all banned from werewolf for life. - Cymsdale

  18. #3178
    General Forster's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIEuropa Universalis 3Hearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourEuropa Universalis: Rome
    Semper FiSengokuVictoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of Darkness
    Rise of Prussia500k clubEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Columbus, GA
    Posts
    2,158
    Blog Entries
    2
    You'll never find an economist that was wrong, it's amazing.

  19. #3179
    Strategy Cognoscenti Demi Moderator Myth's Avatar
    Hearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonDeus VultHearts of Iron IIIEuropa Universalis III: In NomineMagicka
    EU3 Napoleon's AmbitionSemper Fi

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    7,275
    reis91: Sure, the way I played I was following a sort of grand strategy. I was merely saying I didn't discuss it much.

    BlitzMartinDK: Because it wouldn't have been a walk over. Virtually every capital ship the British had was there (at least from pre-war capitals, notwithstanding those sunk). That's scary. There was also absolutely no reason to destroy it, since when cooped up in Tel Aviv was almost totally out of my hair. And concerning Spain, the Allies did try landing there at least once. I'm quite sure I noted it when it happened. It simply didn't develop into anything because the port garrison cut the attacking division to pieces.

    mankle30: The AI sounds a bit more promising.

    Forster: I'm not entirely sure what point your trying to make here.

    Anyway, there may or may not be an update later, as I'm going to be pretty busy today! I've only got three more to go, and they're all suggested reading lists for those who are interested in reading more on strategic theory and history etc. I've got the first two lists, but have yet to annotate them. Also, I'm leaving tomorrow to go to England for two weeks, where I will most likely be without any internet access besides that which I can periodically bum from friends or my university library. So this AAR's final (but relatively inconsequential) updates will come in a couple weeks!
    Read about my full body of AAR works here!

    Fan of the Week 13/08/09

  20. #3180
    General Forster's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIEuropa Universalis 3Hearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourEuropa Universalis: Rome
    Semper FiSengokuVictoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of Darkness
    Rise of Prussia500k clubEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Columbus, GA
    Posts
    2,158
    Blog Entries
    2
    My point is, if none of them are ever admit that their concepts and theories and predictions were ever wrong, which is impossible. I tend to think most are BS artists. But that is getting away from your aar. Are you getting SF. You should find the AI a bit more challenging from what I have seen.

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts