IME, the best use for CAGs in land warfare is as Interdictors to bog your enemy formations down; any damage they do is incidental in this case, or as logistical bombers. They're not as good at it but they can spread the load and the damage wider.
IME, the best use for CAGs in land warfare is as Interdictors to bog your enemy formations down; any damage they do is incidental in this case, or as logistical bombers. They're not as good at it but they can spread the load and the damage wider.
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Fantastic AAR! I just spent 4 and a half hours reading this, and I can't wait to see how you try to stem the red tide!
The red tide will be changing the color of all his uniforms pretty soon.
Well. A lot of pain for only the destruction of an armoured division. It will be interesting to see how the Soviets fill the vacuum. There may be opportunities for littoral operations that harass the Med flank. Tough luck.
I did notice that there was some forward movement of the Germans in one of your screen shots. Any chance that they can close the gap behind the Germans in a even larger pocket? Or that they will distract the Russians long enough for you to establish your new front?
On a side note,
How many new divisions do you have in the pipeline? What is there rough eta?
Wonderful AAR by the way!
Enewald: Yeah, civilization always crumbles when the barbarians are at the game. It's basically a meme now.
Baltasar: Hehe well the entire time my naval air has been on interdiction, with a small bit on air superiority. I did actually think of the infrastructure bit myself, too.As for your other questions, not much and not much yet.
Brad1: Yeah, it was certainly a hell of an ambitious plan. I blame those meddling kids for its failure! And by meddling kids I mean STAVKA. And Germany for sucking.
badger_ken: Air power isn't that effective, though I was also using it more in a close air support role. Soon it'll get the chance for a true operational role.
OneArmed: Thanks, and welcome!
BlitzMartinDK: Now now, that may be a bit pessimistic.
loki100: Indeed, that's something I noticed from this campaign as well.
anweRU: Well, we'll see what the future holds when we get there.
womble: Yeah, I was using them as interdictors. Soon enough I'll be using them in the logistical role as well.
buzzinfrog: Thanks, and welcome! The red tide will be a bit difficult to stem anywhere short of another choke point.
Forster: Haha, maybe...
Jemisi: Yeah, it didn't go as well as hoped. But in war nothing ever does.
AreoHotah: Nah, the Germans are completely worthless. The only thing they're doing is occupying the majority of the Soviet army, but they're not doing anything with that. As for my army, I do still have some units coming in from training and production and whatnot but I couldn't say how many or when.
Choke points are only any real use for delaying unless you have a huge qualitative difference between the defenders and the attackers.Originally Posted by Myth
The red tide will be a bit difficult to stem anywhere short of another choke point.
If your troops are roughly equal, then each side can just feed Divisions into the meatgrinder and the one with the highest total ORG will win eventually, but if the defending troops are taking less ORG than the attackers, there's a hope that the extra multiple means that the attackers don't have more effective Org than the defenders. Usually, that's going to require a terrain or fortification advantage, though possibly the extensive experience of the Italian army might actually provide tha advantage Mussolini needs here. How're your Fortification practicals? The gap from Venice to the Tyrol isn't very wide; can you keep the Russian Bear from the door long enough to build a meaningful defensive line in the plains of the Veneto?
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Too bad can't still assume operational control of allies, although I'm not sure Italy would have been allowed to do that anyway.
This shouldn't be happening.
You could always load as Germany, pause and give the army groups some objectives to see if you could kickstart the Germans, then exit and go back to being Italy. Of course, you would then probabaly have a major reorganization to do. That way you wouldn't be controlling Germany the whole time, if you give them short objectives just to try and get them going.
I would just do what I did as Germany in the 44 scenario; let the Soviets in Eastern Romania and fall back west to the mountains, then cut them off and destroy them. I know its kinda cheap but you could do that multiple times and destroy huge amounts of Soviet units so eventually you can roll up their entire southern flank.
I was thinking about a fort line too, but I wondered not just abot the time, but the cost.
The problem with this is that Myth's units are already beat up having done something similar just the once and defending the mountains might not be enough.
I think the Venice-Tyrol line would only be about three provinces wide. Should be able to afford that by not paying for full supplies for a while... Long way to fall back though.
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Myth's major problem is he has way too few ground troops, and the ones he has are actually understrength, 2 brigade instead of 3 brigade units. He is actually very brittle.
Although he wants to use the British style of warfare, he is neglecting a key point. Britain is an island and has a rather defensible fall back position when everything goes to hell. Myth, on the other hand, is fighting a ground war with a land connection and nothing to back it up, at least not yet.
I think he has visions of the thin red line, or maybe the charge of the light brigade!
Sorry Myth, but that's how it looks.
womble: Hehe my fort practical is 0, given that I've not built a fort in my entire life. As for chokepoints, true they're only supposed to be temporary, but in that part of Europe, northern Illyria just gets narrower and narrower. I should be able to hold the Soviets for a while, I think.
Forster:They'd probably still be too incompetent to listen to me.
Sangeli: Don't have the manpower to do that, really, as seen already. Plus the Soviets are also coming through Anatolia.
Jemisi: Costs would be costly.
womble: That is a long way to fall back, yeah.
Forster: Yep. 'Tis true. Well, I'll think of something.
Update tomorrow evening, guys!
Once you reach your position in Illyria, I wonder if a Hungarian attack on the Soviets might help you out in the end. If the AI could be convinced to attack into the void space behind the Russians, you would have a good chance of isolating and destroying several of their divisions, may be up to the equivalent of an army.
Could you be bothered to post a screen of the other fronts soon? I'd like to see where the Wehrmacht is supposedly idling around.
I would also like to see this. I'm thinking its time to start INF spamming like crazy. I can't wait to see how you handle the Red Bear.
I think it will be doable to hold the line in Ilyria. The Russians will spread units into the void of the Balkans and with his maritime power Myth should have some options for taking initiative.
Baltasar: It might be helpful tactically but it'd be ruinous strategically in the end. Hungary would be overrun by the Red Army and then they wouldn't be a useful buffer any more. As for screenshots of the Germans, there'll be some when there's a reason for there to be some. And there'll be a reason later this year.
Brad1: With caution.
Jemisi: Hehe, we'll see how things go down.
Update tonight!
Even if a concentration of forces is the only wise thing to do, giving up Ploesti and Istanbul must hurt. Any African divisions that can be pulled back?
The plot against Britain - a Kaiserreich mystery (on hold) - Character writer of the week (23-5-2010)
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FlyingDutchie: Well, my fuel supplies are in quite good shape so Ploesti isn't really that important. As for divisions in Africa, they began doing their own thing.
Update coming up!
The Year of Upheaval
Part 6: The Withdrawal Westward, February 11 – February 28, 1942
Withdrawals in the face of the enemy are always difficult affairs, tactically, operationally and strategically. Tactically, it is an enormous challenge to disengage from the enemies; it means leaving one’s own prepared positions and moving out into the open where an aware and capable enemy could wreak havoc in all sorts of different ways. Operationally, it means dispersing the combat strength of a division or a corps or an army in such a way as to provide safeguards against attack while at the same time moving them away from the enemy. Strategically, it means finding a new line at which to defend against the superior enemy. The Italians would face all these difficulties from February 11 through to the end of the month.
The Soviets would not let up their pressure. On the 12th of February they called off their latest offensive against Onesti, having sacrificed over twelve hundred soldiers for no real gain save the slaughter of nearly four hundred and fifty Italian defenders. At Tulcea and Artysz, however, the Soviets won: the former was an offensive Italian battle inside the pocket and the latter was a defensive Italian battle in the ring. Losses cumulatively approached four hundred on the Italian side and barely surpassed four hundred on the Soviet side. Nevertheless, the real damage was done operationally. With Artysz open, the Soviets would be able to relieve the pocket. And then the real pressure would begin, particularly from within the erstwhile encirclement. With the withdrawal beginning, Da Zara’s and Campioni’s naval aviators switched to other targets. They would, instead of interdicting Soviet ground forces, hit their logistics infrastructure. Italian warplanes would dominate the skies in the coming two weeks as they had the previous two. No bridge, no road nor rail junction in northern Dacia between Hungary and the Black Sea would be left undestroyed by the end of the month.
Italian carrier air groups hitting north Dacian infrastructure.
By the 18th of February the withdrawal was in full swing. Graziani’s very battered army was pulling back behind the cover of Bastico’s stalwart defenders. The Italian position was, with the fall of Artysz, effectively that of a terribly extended salient defended only on the northern side. It would have to be a phased withdrawal; there was no other way to try to bring out all formations intact. Bastico’s third corps, which had been operating on the interior of the pocket, was also to begin withdrawing, but only until Bastico’s corps headquarters areas. These three divisions were, however, to have a terrible time in the days to come. The Graziani’s army was able to disengage nearly easily, despite its previous heavy defeats. The Soviets did not have the operational level planning to instigate truly unrelenting deep operations. This would result in enforced delays on the Soviet side—worse than those on the Italian side, certainly—that would allow the Italians of Graziani’s army to get away.
The first stage of the withdrawal.
As the first stage of the withdrawal was beginning, the forces that had been in Thrace and around Istanbul were already passing Belgrade by. Guzzoni and Pintor had definitively escaped danger, in the first success of the massive withdrawal effort. By the 21st of March, The Italian defenders of Onesti had been assaulted by utterly overwhelming force and were forced to withdraw. Graziani’s army was very nearly out of the firing line by this stage. Bastico’s third corps, however, took the first of a series of hammer blows from Soviets in the now broken encirclement. These were undoubtedly designed to halt the Italian withdrawal long enough for the pressure from the north to break the Italian armies apart and lead to a decisive defeat of Italian arms in Dacia. The corps formations, however, refused to prolong contact, even though such refusals would further the disarray of the divisions and impede their withdrawal efforts. It was impediment, or destruction. By this point the Soviets had an overwhelming amount of divisions in the theater: at least thirty divisions, including at least four armored divisions and an independent marine brigade and this does not even begin to count the Soviet forces in Anatolia.
The withdrawal under increasingly severe pressure from the Soviets.
Trezzani, of Bastico’s third corps, again got hammered: this time at Valenii de Munte. There, two armored divisions pounced upon his withdrawing infantrymen and caused considerable havoc before Trezzani could achieve a tactical disengagement some hours later. Onesti had fallen. Only one of Bastico’s corps was now standing, right next to the Hungarian border. It was the lynchpin of the entire swing out of the salient. By the 24th, however, all formations had disengaged on a tactical level from the pursuing Soviet forces, save for Bastico’s corps by the Hungarian border, which would be the last to evacuate, and his third corps, whose individual members were now effectively the terribly embattled rearguard and just barely keeping ahead of their pursuers. Graziani’s army, however, had effectively achieved operational disengagement: there was no way now for the Soviets to reach his forces. Three out of four armies had now effectively escaped.
The withdrawal by the morning of February 24th.
Trezzani and La Ferla were assaulted yet again at Targoviste and were sent retreating toward the corps headquarters. Italian aircraft still filled the skies and it is to the brave naval aviators that, perhaps, the Italian soldiers could look to for their salvation. The sheer mass of Soviet formations in the theater completely overwhelmed their logistical network, under assault as it was by ubiquitous Italian carrier-based bombers. It was only on February 27th that Bastico’s third corps managed to finally achieve tactical disengagement. At this point, the word was finally given. Bastico’s last two corps would withdraw as quickly as possible. By the evening on the next day, operational disengagement had been achieved. All four Italian armies in the east had been withdrawn without loss of any formation.
The withdrawal was secure.
Tactically and operationally, the withdrawal had eventually been a success. At this point, it was up to Mussolini and his generals to reform a line of defense at a new string of locations and halt the Soviet juggernaut. Tactical achievement and operational skill would count for naught if they failed in this new and pressing mission. It was the creation and integrity of this new line that would engage most of Mussolini’s efforts, leaving other theaters to return to default strategies of limited liability.
As a closing note on this withdrawal, as was typical, given their dedication to their mission, Da Zara’s and Campioni’s fleets were actually the last units to leave the theater. They would only pass through the Straits on the 2nd of March, mere hours ahead of their closing by a Soviet assault into undefended Istanbul.
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