Hungary AAR #1: The Reign of Ziggy I

update through 1460

Thanks to Stnylan and Murmurandus for your input! It turned out I had quite the wild ride in my next session - here we go!

First, a small digression - I posted last time asking why my larger cavalry forces were routinely defeating smaller infantry forces, breaking them quickly, and yet I was losing 2-5X the casualties the opponent was. This happened a lot more to me this session, and I have a sinking feeling that the answer has to do with Land Tech - despite making it the #1 expenditure, I am still tech 6 while nearly everyone around me (including the Turk!) is Tech 7, and the smaller states are tech 8. I feel like time is against me, in a major way. I try frantically to address this in this session (moving the slider more to "innovative", putting my government research to nearly zero), but it still feels like I'm in quicksand. Keep this in mind as I explain some of my actions below.....

So, to recap - I've just almost-finished a war against the Turks, things are generally looking well except for the horribly powerful and nasty Poland/Lithuania. To make things worse, I seem to be the only one who thinks they are a threat! They have oodles of allies, including their tradiitional rival Muscovy - at present, I just don't see a way to check them. I will wait for an opportunity to present itself, while I continue to put down the endless rebellions in the Balkans (check out the rebellion percentages, this after around 10 years of occupation - I think it's mainly because of the religious differences):



I haven't been able to decide whether to handle this by moving the sliders to get more missionaries (the slider moves which do this tend to penalize other, more important things, however, like technology (see above)), or to get more tolerant (not sure yet how), or just to grin and bear it.

I have a fun diversion - remember how I said the war with the Turks was "almost" finished? Their two allies, Syria and the Mamluks, won't quit - Syria, in particular, keeps lobbing armies at me that it walks all across Turkey - I admire their fighting spirit! At some point this reminds me, that my last national mission was to have a larger navy than Milan - I now have 10 galleys, laughable compared to many, but probably more than Syria's - I move it to the Aegean, and fight and win my first naval battle! Whee!

Even more fun, I then load an Expeditionary Force, and take Beirut - double whee! The Syrians cave and offer me white peace (just in time, as they had 8K infantry on the way to knock out my 1K expeditionary force!). About a year later, the Mamluks finally offer white peace, which I accept.

In the "I guess it never hurts to ask" department - the Turks ask me to grant military access - I don't think so, fellows.

So here I am, at peace at least, and frustrated - I have a large and potent army, which is getting less potent by the day due to technology. I would love to DOW Poland, but they have all the cards - they are both more powerful and much more popular (nice trick, fellas - this despite the fact that they've annexed 3 minors). Their traditional rivals either are their friends (Muscovy, Bohemia, Teutonic Order), too weak to be a factor (Sweden), or hate me more than they hate them (the Golden Horde has a -200 relation with me?!!?).

So I twiddle my thumbs and wait for an opportunity - I don't have to wait long, when Austria takes me on quite an adventure!

Mr. Austria's wild ride

Austria, for some reason, decides to DOW Venice. In a prior war, I had divested Venice of Corfu, Sardinia, and Ragusa, while Austria had taken Treviso, and Crete rebelled - - all Venice has is itself, and little Romagna (a province on the east coast of Italy, about halfway down). I don't know what Austria is thinking here, but I feel I have to honor the call to arms - Austria is my #1 ally.

War #9 - vs. Venice

To my horror, the call is also honored by .... Poland! Somehow Poland and _Austria_ are now allied! What is Austria thinking? Why am I the only country worred about Poland?? I smell a future backstab (against me).

By the way, one rules question - as the wars progress, I see Polish armies nonchalantly strolling across my lands on the way to Venice. I never gave them permission, and they never asked - how come they can do this?

My initial plan was to do nothing in the war against Venice, but then I notice that Austria and Poland have focused 100% on Venice (which they can't take, due to the Venetian navy) - maybe I can snap up Romagna!

I then engage in one of my few reverts to a saved game, as I find a big AI weakness that I decide it's not fair to exploit - read on for details, but consider yourself warned, this is a spoiler:

I thought I would move my tiny navy to the southern Adriatic, and convey my expeditionary force onto the Italian mainland, to get at Romagna. Remember that as long as Venice keeps a navy in the Venetian straits, it may not be attacked by land. What I found was that if I moved my navy anywhere near the Adriatic, even just to the heel of Italy, that the entire Venetian navy will charge after me, and even pursue me almost back to Macedonia - while this is happening, the beseging armies can now waltz in and take Venice. This is _so_ stupid that I just can't make myself take advantage of it - I reload the game and instead pursue a different strategy:

I ask Milan (which is very large by the way - they are well on the way to unifying Italy - during the war they complete the annexation of Naples!) and Ferrara to let me walk through their territory, and to my surprise both agree - this lets me walk into and seige Romagna. After about a year, Venice cedes it to me - I now have a foothold in Italy, and my first University! Yay!

Hmmm, how to keep (and possibly grow) my little foothold? To the south is 1-province Urbino, which has just been conquered by Savoy. To the north is 2-province Ferrara. To the west is 1-province Tuscany. I am going to try and no longer annex people, or at least do it much more rarely, as my reputation is still "slightly tarnished", which is really hurting me diplomatically. My plan is to reduce multi-province enemies to one-province, and one-province enemies to vassals. I start things off by liberally sprinkling warnings and guarantees (sometimes both) around Northern Italy. I still don't have many troops there, I am too wary of a Polish/Austrian/Turkish backstab.

To my surprise, this strategy pays off almost immediately, as Ferrara DOWs Venice for some reason - people sure do love DOWing Venice. I debate long and hard about answering the call against Ferrara, as they are allied with Austria - I decide to honor it, and am thrilled when Austria stays out. I never get a message that they dishonored the alliance, maybe they don't get called when Ferrara DOWs? Or maybe I just didn't see the message (shrug).

War #10 - vs. Ferrara

Just a month later, Savoy also decides to DOW Venice. I honor the call again. Savoy is allied with Sicily and Castile, neither of which DOWs me - maybe calls to arms are considered purely "defensive", and don't trigger chain reactions? I need to re-read this part of the rules.....

War #11 - vs. Savoy

Anyways, the result is pretty much the best possible situation - war against a 2-province to the north (Ferrara) with no allies, and against reasonably-large-but-still-much-weaker-than-I Savoy (5 provinces, 1 (ancona) disconnected from the others and right next to me). I quickly smash Ferrara and then head up to Savoy. Before I can take the Ferraran capital, they offer me a peace in which they give me a little money, and their second province - as this is what I would have asked for anyway, I agree - this gives me my second Italian province, and 2nd University!

Savoy proves a tougher and more frustrating nut to crack, as my cavalry chases their army all over Savoy - routinely defeating it, routinely suffering 2-3X the casualties they do - I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong here, or if this is just what happens when you're 1 tech level below your enemy - any tips? And maybe I'm just unlucky, but Ancona, which only has a level 1 fort, holds out for over a year and half - bad luck, or another symptom of tech levels?

Anyways, Savoy finally falls - my plan at the peace table was to turn them into a vassal, but the game says that they "won't accept this proposal" - WTF? They're not exactly in a position to choose, are they (I own every one of their provinces)? Maybe I should have hit "send" anyways, but instead I accept a peace in which I take Ancona (where Urbino was), have them liberate Genoa (taking a COT away from them as well), and they give me a little money.

Even better yet, I haven't been backstabbed this entire time! I now have a little pocket of Italy, straddling the coast, right into the middle - a tenuous strategic situation. Also, I am now squarely in the sights of Milan, which hates me for some reason (-130 relation, I think - and I've never done anything to them?? Why does everyone hate me so??), and which borders me to north and south.

Here's the new map of Italy:



So while I've gained 3 provinces in wonderful Italy, including 2 universities, the question is now whether it will be worth it, as I assume I'll have to fight Milan soon.

One last piece of very good news ends the session - I'm clicking around, deciding on strategy, when I happen to notice that - Poland and Lithuania are no longer in union!! I don't know when this happened, I never got a popup on it (it's probably a Polish 'event', I would guess), but it's great news - Poland is still a great threat, but no longer the unstoppable machine they were. My new mission is to have a larger army than Poland's, also (mine got worn down a bit in the war) - you don't have to ask twice!

So my plan now is to spend a few years rebuilding my army. It's 1460 now, and the Polish provinces they conquered from Moldavia/Wallachia Way Back When will become core to them in 3 more years - my plan is to see if I can attack them in two, while I hope Milan leaves me alone.

update through 1465

First, thanks to everyone for their input:

Marco - thanks for your input on the shock value - sounds about right, good point.

Murmurandus - "There always is war in Italy until someone unites it..." - sounds great! A little Pax Hungaria might be just the thing

Lawliet - thanks for the tip on the "fake access". As you will see below, your advice on Poland was correct as well.....

stnylan - backstab? Moi?

Zeitgeist - glad you enjoy it!

I really wanted to take this next installment up to 1500 (we are now up to 1460), but 1460-1465 were so action-packed they merit a post all their own.

To recap - I have just finished a lovely little pair of wars in Italy - my hand is now firmly stuck in the honey pot. My truces with Turkey and Poland are both about to expire - Turkey is already the "sick man" of Europe - the Mamelukes are at war with them and have conquered a good chunk of Anatolia).

Poland, on the other hand, is still very strong, only a bit weaker than I am, but with lots of powerful allies, including Austria (who is also my ally).

So, what to do next? My new national mission seems to point the way:


- take Edirne (the Turkish province just northwest of Constantinople). Seems like a good idea, Turkey is weak, and I do dearly love the fact that DOWing Turkey costs no stability. I will try to be prepared by backstabs from Milan, Austria, or Poland though.

So I redeploy, replenish my manpower reserves, and DOW Turkey in September 1461.

War #12 - vs. Turkey

For the first 7 months, things go swimmingly, as I besiege all the European Turkish provinces, without seeing a single Turkish soldier - wow, I guess the Mamelukes must really be putting it to them. Perhaps even more importantly, all my alliances have held firm - from powerful Austria to tiny Ragusa, for once I'm on the good side of a coalition. I'm especially grateful for Austria joining me, as they can't backstab me while they're allied to me (can they?).

That's where we are in May 1462, when the Poles backstab me -

War #13 - vs. Poland

They had done this to me before, two Turkish wars ago (my, how the wars fly by!), and it worked quite well for them, but this time, I'm much better prepared. It's not just that I'm a lot stronger now, it's that Poland is only half as strong (it no longer has Lithuania on its side). And this time, for whatever reason, nobodyjoins Poland. On the other hand, almost nobody joins me either, most annoying Austria bows out (though it's still fighting Turkey and its pals with me), but I get a big break when moderately-sized Brandenburg does join me. Here's the balance of forces for what looks to me like my golden opportunity to take Poland down -



Here's the strategic situation - my forces are around 30K cavalry (6K on rebellion duty in Italy), 15K infantry. My ally Brandenburg has around 8K. The Pole has their army split into three parts - (A) one very large and scary stack (26K, 23K of that cavalry) that immediately starts moving towards Budapest, (B) one 8K stack down in Wallachia (by Turkey), and (C) around 10K milling around Poland - see the map below.



My plan is to keep the infantry seiging the Ottoman lands, while the cavalry fights the big battles, after which the infantry can start seiging in Poland. My cavalry I want to take advantage of the split in the Polish forces, and smash their (B) force, letting their (A) force attrit itself, and then taking it on, joined by my Italian cavalry - I'll just have to run the risk of Italian rebellions for now.

My hope is that Brandenburg can annoy/divert the Poles enough, perhaps even taking a province, that they don't concentrate exclusively on me.

The first year (1462) - opening moves
Thing start off very well in the South, as my united cavalry force smashes the Polish (B) force to smithereens - . Yay!
In the North, I am heartened to see Brandenburg moving their army into western Poland, seiging Breslau.
Only the middle do things go not-so-well, as the huge Polish army attrits from 26K all the way down to .... 28K, while seiging my border province (I didn't have the chance to scorched-earth it). Guess they're pushing in reinforcements.

In November, I get a piece of wonderful news - the Turk offers me a White Peace! Why is this so wonderful? Not just because I no longer have to fight a two-front war, but because I eventually realized that my national mission (conquer Edirne) is basically impossible, as Edirne is now the Turkish capitol! With almost nothing to gain, and much to lose, I jump on the white peace. While I'm still at war with some of its allies - one with a crescent on a black background (I forget the name), and The Golden Horde (ohh, maybe that's why they hate me), I plan to ignore that.

The second year (1463) - the battle of Midway
my border province falls, and the huge Polish army moves on to Budapest. I think maybe the smart money move would have been to let them attrit themselves here for a while, but I'm feeling my oats - my entire cavalry is together, I have a good general, and my national honor is at stake! I give battle to the Poles at the gates of Budapest in April 1463, and in an immense battle, I prevail! Yippee!



More important than the casulaties (I lose 7K, he loses 9K), is that now his morale is broken - I immediately start hounding him from province to province. After whittling him down a few more times, though I'm still losing almost as much as he is, by June 1463 his main force is cowering in western Austria:



I am happy to let it sit there, I move my quite-attrited cavalry back into Hungary to refill, and start trying to plink off the 1-2K big Polish reinforcements/seige forces.

Speaking of seige forces, whlie my cavalry has been doing this, my infantry has been steadily moving northwards from turkey, "rolling up" the polish provinces from the south. Since I smashed their southern task force in the prior year, this generally goes pretty well.

On the northern front, the only bad news, as the Poles blast the Brandenburg army. Brandenburg doesn't lose a province, however (although they get seiged for a while), and as the Polish reserves start to run low, Brandenburg is hanging on gamely, which is about all I need from them.

The third year (1464) - on a roll

by early 1464, through months of judicious cavalry offensives, I have put a _big_ hurt in the Polish army.

When the main Polish army decides to leave its Austrian refuge and rejoin the fray, I pounce on it, and after a few more battles, wipe it out. My cavalry then goes marauding through Poland - by April 1464, the Polish army is size .... ZERO!!

One side note through all this - remember that when I settled white peace with the Ottoman, I stayed at war with the Golden Horde? Well, this means that Austria did too. Throughout this war, 10K-sized Austrian contingents go marching across my country to go fight in the Crimea - they even take a few provinces:



According to the war score, they are losing more than they are gaining, but the Machiavelli in me approves - as long as Austria is getting bled dry by the Golden Horde, they're not backstabbing me.

Poland shows that it's still got a trick up its sleeve, however, as in June 1464 they convince Brandenburg to settle for peace, paying them off with $250. Sigh, this is really a shame as Brandenburg had conquered one Polish province, and two more were about to fall, now I'll have to do all that. I just hope I don't get backstabbed by somebody else in the process....

1465 - Poland Collapses

By April 1465, other than 2 Polish provinces that are held by rebels, along the Baltic coast, I have conquered every Polish province - check out the war score and the balance of forces here, pardon my gloating:



It's time to decide what we want out of Poland. Due to my bad-boy reputation, and the fact that after I've seen Italy rural Poland no longer seems quite so wonderful, my goals aren't so much to make myself bigger, as to make Poland weaker.

I really wanted to make them release Silesia (Ratibor) and Moldavia, but neither shows as an option - maybe after 50 years nations can't be resurrected?

So I "settle" for a peace in which I take Ratibor and Carpathia (the 2 provinces i had lost to them in our last war), make them turn (a) Wallachia, (b) Moldavia, and (c) Riga into independent nations, and make them cough up a whopping $550!

Things get even sweeter, when the next month, I get this lovely message


The result is that the Teutonic Order is reborn as well, shaving 2 more provinces off Poland. To show how large they had gotten, even after this massive defeat, in which they lose 7 provinces, they are still larger than they were at the start of the game. However, their Terrible days are over - they are now Just Another Power. Here's the map of the new situation:



So that's where we are in May, 1465 - my plan is to now spend at least a year rebuilding my armies and my manpower reserve, and then probably head back to Sunny Italy.

thanks for the comments...

thanks much for the comments! Taking them each and turn, and cravenly begging for advice:

stnylan - " I might have been tempted to consider getting a corridor to the Golden Horde for future heathen-bashing." - I've been feeling the opposite - I'm happy to keep the Golden Horde as far from me as possible - tramping across the vast endless steppes seems much less appetizing than munching on Italian or German (or even Balkan) snacks.

TGHoplite - "Is that Sweden in the Baltic states? " - wow, good eye! Sweden is in a poor position. They do indeed own some of the Baltic States, I think they took them when they were a growing expansionist power, but they then got backstabbed by Norway and are now a shadow of their former selves, see the map:



BTW, speaking of how the map has changed, I was clicking around and noticed that - Portugal is no longer a player! They were completely conquered by Castile, Aragon is hanging on with 2 provinces.

Are you going to keep Macedonia? - yes, i was planning to, it's in a great strategic position, keeping both European Turkey and Byzantium split in two. Plus, after 20 years of occupation, it's revolt percentage is all the way down to 6%

Are you doing any trading? That could definitely help your tech problem - thanks, i must have just missed that, I didn't realize trading had influence on tech. I've been doing the most vanilla thing possible, putting my trading on auto-send and sending them to the biggest COTs, where generally they have been doing quite well (for 30 years I had a 6-star trade advisor). Here's what I'm doing - any suggestions for change?



and, while I'm showing screen shots and asking for advice - here's where my budget sliders (and tech levels) are. Government spending is higher than indicated, due to my 2 Universities:



and here's where my national characteristics are - I've moved towards "Land" and "innovative", and I think once towards "centralized", from the starting position, although there have been random events as well:



Murmurandus - Ah, Victory over Perfidious Poland! Glory to Hungary! - High five!

update to 1485

It's May 1465, and we have just finished putting a big hurt on Poland - to my dismay, as we will see, Poland bounces back quickly in this session

One of the ways I had put a hurt on Poland was to make them divest Riga, Wallachia, Mazovia, and the Teutonic Order.

Well, the Northern Baltic is not a friendly place for a new nation, as the Teutonic Order get's DOWed almost immediately by Pommerania and Sweden, which gobble it up - Pommerania takes one province, Sweden takes a second, and the last one is made a vassal of Sweden



I am still technically at war with the Golden Horde, allies of Turkey in my last war against them, and those guys absolutely refuse to surrender - every once in a while I get ridiculous peace offers like this:



It takes me 3 full years to rebuild my army and my manpower reserves - just then, I get sucked into another war:

War #14 - vs. Milan and Bohemia

My (sole) ally, Brandenburg, gets into some sort of silly spat with Meissen. The chain of alliances kicks in, and the next thing Brandenburg knows they are up against Trier and Baden (2 more who-cares German states), moderately powerful Bohemia, and very-powerful (roughly equal to me) Milan. (by the way, I am learning - try to answer calls-to-arms as late as you can, so you can see who you're up against). Brandenburg calls for my support.

I hem and haw, and finally decide that this is probably about as good a chance as I'll ever get to take Milan down, and I accept the call, in September 1469.

The initial balance of forces doesn't look very good:



We're outnumbered roughly 3:2, but we have one huge advantage - interior lines. My plan is to quickly blitzkrieg Bohemia, hold on in Italy, and then swing south.

The very next month, I get a big kick in the teeth, as Castille excommunicates me!

Grrrr. This is bad in every way. Not only does it wreak havoc with my prestige and diplomatic efforts, but Castile is far too far away, and far too large, for me to do anything back to them. And my (very good) king has only been on the throne for 20 years, this could last a _long_ time! Grrr....


"Lions led by asses"

Militarily, the campaign goes almost perfectly. I swing north, blast Bavaria and some other random foes, siege every city in Bavaria, and then head south. Milan has knocked out my Italian defense force, and by the time I get there has conquered every one of my Italian provinces (gulp), but I have one large advantage over them - concentration. I have one (almost all cavalry) force of around 25K. Their force of 40K is split into roughly 4 forces of 10K each - one in the North, two in the middle, and one in the south. I first knock out the northern contingent, then as I swing against the center I catch a big break - a revolt breaks out in Southern Italy, and the Milanese southern contingent, _and_ one of the central contingents, head south. Yay! This lets me easily start munching through Milan from the top down.

I get another piece of good news when, after around 10 years, the Golden Horde finally offers me a White peace - if I can end this current war, I will be at peace for the first time in a _long_ time (my war exhasution is at around 75% of its max, gulp).

And now, with Bohemia 100% occupied, the other German enemies routed, and on the verge of conquering Milan .... I screw up.

I wanted to turn Bohemia into a vassal, so send a diplomat with them and demand tribute. They say they won't accept vassalization (what determines this??), but will give me a bunch of provinces, including Milanese provinces I've just conquered. I shrug and accept, thinking i'll take these Milanese provinces from Bohemia, and then get a bunch more from Milan itself. No sooner have I hit "send" then I realize - Bohemia is the senior partner! If they accept the peace offer (which they do), then all I get out of this glorious military victory is a few more Italian provinces - not bad, but much less than I should have been able to get, and Bohemia gets off almost scot-free (they have to pay a little money). Sigh, this is what you get for playing 2 hours after your bedtime



So here's the new map of Italy, as my dominions steadily grow - sadly, none of my new provinces have a University, though one (Groz), does have Gold.



"That's EMPEROR Andras, to you"

No sooner do I accept this peace, then I get a new National Decision - if I wish, I can swith my government from Feudal Monarchy to Empire. "Empire" - I like the sound of that! Even after reading the Eu3 Wiki, I can't really honestly figure out whether this is a good move (looks like my army gets smaller, but my budget gets better), but I decide to go for it - how can you turn down being an Empire!



Switching to Empire, and being excommunicated, and having high war exhaustion, and having 3 new provinces, and being religously intolerant, give me quite the set of internal rebellion probabilities - check it out



"Poland takes 2 nails out of its coffin"

While I was fighting Milan, always-aggressive Poland seizes the opportunity, and DOWs and conquers newly-freed Wallachia, which it annexes, and Sweden, which it makes de-vassalize the Teutonic Order - _man_, Poland is playing this game well! I was too tied down in Milan to do anything about it.

I then spend several years rebuilding my stability, and putting down rebellions. My prestige is terrible, due mainly to being excommunicated .

War #15 - vs. Denmark

In January 1474, a "war of Pommeranian succession" breaks out - I am told that I have decided to join Pommerania and Brandenburg against Norway, Denmark, and Burgundy. This stinks - I can't really do anything against any of these guys (I can't even really reach them, let alone take anything from them). I decide to simply ignore the war, and for once this works, as in September they offer me a White Peace, which I gratefully accept.

I'm back and ready to fight somebody of my choosing in 1475, but despite sprinkling warnings and guarantees liberally about, nobody bites. I'm in a bit of a bind, as Austria and Poland are allied, and I fear that they will backstab me given the opportunity. On the other hand, I can't really DOW them, either, due to the web of alliances that they have, Austria in particular. So I wind up twiddling my thumbs for a while, as my most-excellent king slowly ages

One interesting thing happens in 1479 - the Byzantine empire relocates its capital to Morea (southern Greece)! I'm not sure if this is good news or not - I kinda liked having Byzantium and Turkey at each other's throats.

One thing that I know isn't good news - the Byzantine empire decides to join the Austro-Polish alliance! Man - I now have an alliance against me to the northwest, the northeast, and the southeast. What's a poor expansionist empire to do

I pace in my cage from 1475 all the way until 1481, when beloved King Andras IV dies, and I get a regency council (yuk):



The only good news here is that the excommunication is finally lifted.

With a regency council, I can't DOW, so I pace in my cage for four _more_ years, all the way until 1485, when I get a new King, Albert I: 6 Administration, 6 Military, 5 Diplomacy - not bad!



Check out my horrendous prestige - I'm ranked 130th in the world!



One other piece of random news of note - Castile settles for peace with "Oyo" (on the African coast - looks like exploration has begun!), and check out the size of the tribute!



So that's where we are in 1485, ready to start a new chapter with a new king - under the old King, we gained big chunks of the southern balkans and central italy, and put a big hurt on both Turkey and Poland. Well done, if I may pat myself on the back a bit

For those who are curious, here's what the world is looking like:

Western Europe:


On the colonization front - Spain has colonized Newfoundland, and someplace on the coast of Africa - it's starting!


Eastern Europe:




I need to get my prestige back up, and finally have a new king and a rested nation. I'm thinking, when in doubt, declare war on Turkey, especially as their capital is now in Edirne, right next door.

Until next time,

thanks for the comments...

thanks for the feeback!

germanpeon -

That's an uber Spain there alright. They're going to have less competition in the New World and greater resources with which to take control of it.

Click to expand...

- yes, I agree, but there's not really much I can do about it . It seems like England is also doing extremely well, perhaps at some point England and Spain will start colliding. France seems like it's doing about as you would expect.

L Lawliet -

Inflation BAAAAD!! You're minting too much and the inf. is really going to start to hit you soon

Click to expand...

- thanks much for the advice. I've been trying (and failing) to run a tight fiscal ship, I usually try to break-even on an annual basis, I've only hired one general the entire game, etc. - I guess my army, and the fact that I've built around 15 temples (not sure if this was wise or not), just chew it up. My hope was to start making more vassals to get some free income, but the last two times I've conquered every province in a country and asked for vassalization (Poland and Bohemia), they've refused - is this because they're too big? I'm not asking politely enough? - the rules are pretty silent on this.

Thanks for the tip on the next National Idea, I'm due to get one in about 2 years.

stnylan -

Declaring war on the Turk seems like an excellent idea. And really, the Byzantines moving their capital to MOrea is really rather useful. It means that, should you enter into war, only good things can happen

Click to expand...

- Thanks for the thumbs-up on the Turk - I'm hoping that now that their capital is Edirne, maybe they will be more amenable to surrender. As per the conversation above, I probably won't ask for much land from them, but will see if I can get some money out of them.