Annexation or puppet state?

edhunter76 · Jul 21, 2009

Just back from a great two week holiday from Bulgaria. Loved the country! In HoI3 I will be going there again, with my army!

Anyway, I have played HoI2 a lot, but never really thought about the advantages of annexation versus puppet state. I have always annexed the countries I've attacked and never even considered about making a puppet state. So, is there any reason why I should prefer puppet state over annexation and what are the main differences?

Also, check this out http://bitterglory.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

Could this be a real competitor to HoI? Any thoughts?

Krawler · Jul 21, 2009

That game seems to be interesting. I especially like the screenshot where swedish santas and finnish reindeers are moving in on each other!! What a game that could become! I wonder if these are examples of special units, perhaps even unique to every country... Seriously though, another GSG is non the less nice. It doesn´t look to hot but if it plays well it would be nice. Competition is always good for the customers. We´ll see how it all plays out.

Snaggleooo · Jul 21, 2009

Puppeting is nice if you don't want to deal with partisans, but don't really care about the IC that you'd gain. I usually puppeted as the Soviets (in HoI2) after destroying the Germans. The Russians have so much IC by 1944 that I create a puppet Germany, offer them pretty much the whole of the Balkans (this takes ages and is really annoying) and forget about them. They go to war when I feel like it and I let them deal with the partisans (if there are any; I haven't checked if the puppet get partisans in non-core territory).

Baneslave · Jul 21, 2009

In HoI3 puppeting is harder, as you can only make puppets from territories you own, meaning that you have annex them first, meaning that there cannot be Government in Exile from that country.

serial · Jul 21, 2009

In HoI2 there whas an advantage in creating puppets. First of all the puppet has its full IC, not only 1/5, secondly the puppet gives you most of its ressources, and this way you gain more of them, thirdly no need to worrie about partisants. The only disadvantages is that the puppet has weaker technology then you, but it can upgreade quickly via blue prints, and you dont have direct control over what the AI spends IC on.

Baneslave · Jul 21, 2009

serial said:
In HoI2 there whas an advantage in creating puppets. First of all the puppet has its full IC, not only 1/5, secondly the puppet gives you most of its ressources, and this way you gain more of them, thirdly no need to worrie about partisants. The only disadvantages is that the puppet has weaker technology then you, but it can upgreade quickly via blue prints, and you dont have direct control over what the AI spends IC on.

Technology is not real problem if you annexed the nation first, as they get most of your technologies (only secret techs aren't given, IIRC).

edhunter76 · Jul 21, 2009

serial said:
In HoI2 there whas an advantage in creating puppets. First of all the puppet has its full IC, not only 1/5, secondly the puppet gives you most of its ressources, and this way you gain more of them, thirdly no need to worrie about partisants. The only disadvantages is that the puppet has weaker technology then you, but it can upgreade quickly via blue prints, and you dont have direct control over what the AI spends IC on.

Annexing all the invaded countries leads to bigger need of troops because of a partisan activity and the need of producing more is higher. Also, generally speaking gaining more IC is obviously something I'm always looking for.

dirkxj · Jan 7, 2011

Does anyone know if ther is a change coming for Hoi 3 in regards to the creation of puppets?
In Hoi 2 it was possible to create puppets out of occupied in stead of annexed territories, which makes sence.
I am very much missing this option in Hoi 3. Even Mods that were created by enthousiasts do not come close to the realism puppet nations had in Hoi 2 (ministers and such).

Slan · Jan 7, 2011

dirkxj said:
Does anyone know if ther is a change coming for Hoi 3 in regards to the creation of puppets?
In Hoi 2 it was possible to create puppets out of occupied in stead of annexed territories, which makes sence.
I am very much missing this option in Hoi 3. Even Mods that were created by enthousiasts do not come close to the realism puppet nations had in Hoi 2 (ministers and such).

A puppet in occupied territory is a Collaboration Government. It is in the game, only not in the way you are looking for it.

dirkxj · Jan 8, 2011

Indeed, in the Hoi2 game Germany could release Flanders ans a puppet state which expanded over a part of France, Belgium and The Netherlands. This release became a state with head of state, ministers, own military etc. Now (with a mod) only Belgium can release Flanders before German Invasion and as a consequence Flanders is much smaller. I wonder why the builders of the game did not include the old options from Hoi 2 into Hoi 3....

Slan · Jan 8, 2011

dirkxj said:
Indeed, in the Hoi2 game Germany could release Flanders ans a puppet state which expanded over a part of France, Belgium and The Netherlands. This release became a state with head of state, ministers, own military etc. Now (with a mod) only Belgium can release Flanders before German Invasion and as a consequence Flanders is much smaller. I wonder why the builders of the game did not include the old options from Hoi 2 into Hoi 3....

Because in the new engine, every single nation decreases performance, even if it doesn't actually exist. Or at least that's the official statement, anyway.

shepherd352 · Jan 9, 2011

dirkxj said:
Does anyone know if ther is a change coming for Hoi 3 in regards to the creation of puppets?
In Hoi 2 it was possible to create puppets out of occupied in stead of annexed territories, which makes sence.
I am very much missing this option in Hoi 3. Even Mods that were created by enthousiasts do not come close to the realism puppet nations had in Hoi 2 (ministers and such).

In the ICE mod, when you defeat a country they try to go into exile but you get three options:

Occupy (in which case you get to set the occupation policy).

Puppet (the government is under you thumb and you will not suffer partisan problems but you get a national dissent hit).

Annex (the land is yours but the people hate you and you get a larger national dissent hit).

In most cases, annexing is unrealistic. People need to believe they have some level of self determination or they will fight against their oppressors. I think occupation, with policy choices, is the most reasonable option during the course of the war.

loki100 · Jan 9, 2011

edhunter76 said:
Anyway, I have played HoI2 a lot, but never really thought about the advantages of annexation versus puppet state. I have always annexed the countries I've attacked and never even considered about making a puppet state. So, is there any reason why I should prefer puppet state over annexation and what are the main differences?

The choice and consequences is a bit less clear cut than it was in HOI2. For a start most countries in a faction will go Govt in Exile and as Slan says you then make your choice using occupation policy (at one end few resources, no IC, decent leadership, low partisans at the other a lot of IC and a lot of partisans), but some will surrender outright. If they've still got a decent army left then a puppet is useful (they come over to you), equally it spares you having to worry too much about leaving a garisson. In theory you get some regular resources but in practice not a lot. Outright annexation nets you leadership and IC but also a permanent (in the game frame) problem with dissent.

In the main I've had reasonable experience with then setting objectives (usually I'm content they stay at home and properly garisson ports etc) and in my current game (as USSR) my now loyal Finns wandered off, as asked, to deal with the war in Central Asia and the Bulgarians are proving sort of useful in taking out an axis Yugoslavia. Generally though don't expect too much from your new allies and you won't be too disappointed. But at worst puppets at least mean you don't gradually wear down your combat army with masses of garissons.

Think Tank · Jan 9, 2011

Just a note that after puppeting the puppeted nation doesn't appear to move its units, unless they have current orders, until you save, resign and reload.

unmerged(314211) · Oct 2, 2011

government-in-exile in hoi3??

Slan · Oct 2, 2011

usarmyfan89 said:
government-in-exile in hoi3??

Thread-necroing much? Anyway, yes, Government in Exile was one of the main features of Hearts of Iron 3.

Ricox · Oct 2, 2011

Baneslave said:
In HoI3 puppeting is harder, as you can only make puppets from territories you own, meaning that you have annex them first, meaning that there cannot be Government in Exile from that country.

Not in For the Motherland, there you can puppet with wargoal even if the country would normally go into GiE.

unmerged(162341) · Oct 2, 2011

From my perspective I think annexation is in game almost always wrong move.

Annexation is extreme state of occupation,thus rebellion is high.

Virtually, by annexation player is enforcing some occupied nation to became part of his nation.....

Occupation is much better, its also more flexible because you can,by changing occupation policy, squeeze occupied land as you like(more squeezing,more unrest of course).

And puppet is excellent way to,free resources and free loyal troops.

I think annexation is worst thing to do in any circumstance,except if it is a historical mechanism of getting back core (national) provinces(Anschluss of Austria and Czech as most notable example)

Slan · Oct 2, 2011

But realistically you can't really keep up occupation indefinitely. There must come a point where you decide whether you allow an independent government to rule directly (ie. a puppet) or to take control yourself (ie. annexation). Occupation is always a temporary measure.

unmerged(162341) · Oct 2, 2011

Slan said:
But realistically you can't really keep up occupation indefinitely. There must come a point where you decide whether you allow an independent government to rule directly (ie. a puppet) or to take control yourself (ie. annexation). Occupation is always a temporary measure.

Of course.
But few years is not to much.

If one have proper occupation troops ,its quiet.

That is why I (GER) have many(100 and more) small (Gar x1+ MP x1,and maybe Militia x1+ MP x1) divisions like a net over occupied Europe and squeeze it decently to extract anything out of them.I am insensitive master:closedeyes:.

Annexation or puppet state?

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