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That is of course true. The key word is winter equipped, troops used to fight in harsh climates (like the Siberians were). To them, the severity of the winter around Moscow was probably something they were fairly used to, and although the troops themselves might have been more or less on par with the rest of the Red Army, being rested, well fed, well equipped, and acclimatised to the weather conditions would put them leagues ahead of the opposition (in this case being the luckless Germans of army group center).
 
Maybe this is a bit out of place, but speaking about "unternehmen barbarossa" I was always amazed about the success of the german army during the first two years of the campaign, considering the huge amount of divisions and armys the Soviets had.

A couple of weeks ago i started reading von Mansteins "Lost victories" and only than i realized that the typical russian Schützen-Division was in no way comparable to a german Infantrie-Division.

Manstein writes that 2 german Infantrie-Divisions (around 15.000 each) were - by sheer Manpower - the equivalent of 3 russian Schützen-Divisions (around 9.000 each).

I really don't know wether a beat a dead horse here, and this has been taken into account a long time ago.

But it seems to me like this has always been translated into the poor performance of russian divisions during the start of barbarossa, because up to now the different makeup of divisions could be modeled?
To be honest, Barbarossa is the only scenario I'm not looking forward to play. The main reason is that we don't really know too much about soviet military, and won't know till 2041 (when russian archives will finally be opened), so 90% of it is pure specualtion. Many historians've tried to make soviet OOB, but we simply don't have enough sources. Even worse, historians that had access to sources had it only because they have had agenda as well (see, IMHO, Volkogonov). It's simply impossible to replay eastern front in HoI2, let's hope HoI3 will be better. I'm looking forward to play soviets in late 1941 ;)
 
That is of course true. The key word is winter equipped, troops used to fight in harsh climates (like the Siberians were). To them, the severity of the winter around Moscow was probably something they were fairly used to, and although the troops themselves might have been more or less on par with the rest of the Red Army, being rested, well fed, well equipped, and acclimatised to the weather conditions would put them leagues ahead of the opposition (in this case being the luckless Germans of army group center).

They have already been opened. Just not completely. There are still many secrets inside Russia but there has been alot of Previously unknown information coming out in the past decade.


On the other matter. If my reading is correct there were around 30-35 divisions amassed around Moscow of which 10-15 could be considered 'elite'. These 10 or 15 divisions are where the tales of the 'elite' Siberian Divisions comes from. Whether or not they were actually better trained than the rest of the Red Army can be a matter of debate as long as these subjects are discussed. I cannot name the books i have read as i never owned any of them and it has been awhile but they are definitely much more credible than Wikipedia, which i have found to be a very untrustworthy source.
 
@serial

No Question about that. But consider the consequences:

While the Soviets catch up in doctrines ... they will have a huge - and undue - advantage if their divisions are built like german Divisions.

Their divisons shouldn't be built like german ones at the start of barbarossa at least. And in the end it's a question about manpower. Sure they should have much more than Germany. But how much is the real question. And how much they can equip. Producing equipment for 9.000 is something different than for 15.000.

To make it simple 300 german divisions would be: 4.5 Mio Soldiers. 300 Soviet-Divisions just 2.7 Mio. Thats a hell of a difference.

Volkssturm restructuring etc. not taken into account. The point is more on the russian side. How good/big should those divisions be.

Especially with the new frontage-System the makeup of divisions (two, three or four brigades) makes major difference.


I dont fully understand.

The Soviets wont build German style divisions (the player may decide to do that). I dont think this would give any significant advantage due to they are dramatically low of officers (after the purge).

In reallity the Soviets should have from 1936 to 1945, a total of about 30 000 000 of manpower. Germans should have more than 10 000 000 (about 5mln lost and about 4mln of Volkssturm alone).
Producing equipment for 15000 is more then 9000 but it is still more then 1/3 more fire power. Again no one is making them build German style divisions.

The difference from the system in HoI3 between the more historicaly accurate is only the scale. Instead of for example a division of 15000 and 9000, you get 9000 against 6000.
 
Chapter three: Stavka’s orders part II

The Pripjet marshes will be defended with small forces and roadblocks. Here I have the advantage of terrain, I have a lot of it and will be able to fall back to the Dnjepr and the Polotsk landbridge (not sure how this future is named). I will thus leave all of Lithaunia to the Germans after only some general resistance, only defending Minsk and the river lines. Once I have build up my forces I will strike back at them. That’s the main plan, the big picture, however. For now, I am struggling to keep the Germans at bay long enough to build the intended defences.
ejddmg.jpg

A defensive position is created just south of the river Niemen, It’s flanks resting on the river to the north and the swamps to the south. The force should be strong enough to hold the Germans while the Western-front conducts a fighting withdraw to and through its position. They will move on towards Minsk and dig in.

One of the first battles fought on June 22nd is the one for the fortified town of Brest-Litovsk. An armoured corps has dug in but due to a command hick-up there is not enough infantry to support the force. As a consequence the corps will be badly mauled and the fortress premature lost.
This part of the front is hit most severely on the early morning of the 22nd. Several powerful attacks throw my troops back. Strong as they are they are not strong enough to hold back the German forces.
A fighting withdrawal is conducted all across the sector.
5chgxy.jpg

Further to the north the last bit of the Western Front, its flank is in the air, is almost non-existent. Here the Soviet troops first line of defence is set around Riga and on the Dvina river. A handful of divisions will be attempting to slow down the German hordes but no miracles are to be expected. Provinces are lost in quick succession and I just know it will take a whole lot of fighting to retake them later on (the stability of this Beta will probably not last until that point).
15mmz5f.jpg

The Soviet Airforce, while not being the powerful force I wish it to be, is in reasonable shape. I have about three dozen units, which are grouped in eight ‘fleets’. Three fighter division will intercept Luftwaffe forces over the Western Front while three fleets composed of various types of bombers will interdict and attack the enemy forces. I will use them to disrupt attacks by ground attack and slow the enemy down by interdiction.
More to the north the seventh unit will perform both roles at once.
Main target for these air-fleets will be the two German spearheads. The northern one obviously aimed at Riga and Minsk, the southern at Kiev straight through the Stalin line. Planes operate above Odessa as well.
2wf4idd.jpg
 
I was just about to ask about your airforce????
And you seem to have read my mind.
Splendid AAR.
One thing I would like to know is the displacement of the enemy forces and your intel on them...
I know it is all first blood at the moment but does it look like the AI commander has a plan? Any encirclement on their part?
 
I will be looking forward to your next part of the AAR. Can you give us some info about how Air combat is done and whether air groups are destroyed quickly (like in HoI2) or just loose a lot of organisation quickly (fighter vs. fighter for example).
 
Amazing!

But God, I hope the province occupation graphic can be modded. I want the HOI2 system, whereby the province simply is coloured the colour of the country that occupies it. I hate this stripy nonsense.

Furthermore, I think I preferred the arrows being a solid blue or red, not this outline business. Oh well, that's why the Gods invented modders!
 
I will be looking forward to your next part of the AAR. Can you give us some info about how Air combat is done and whether air groups are destroyed quickly (like in HoI2) or just loose a lot of organisation quickly (fighter vs. fighter for example).

I'd rather ask whether AI really use the airforce, as the one in HOI2 was not really keen on it.
 
I'd rather ask whether AI really use the airforce, as the one in HOI2 was not really keen on it.

I was testing some logistics stuff earlier today in the mediterranean with France in a war versus Italy. And I managed to lose airsuperiority, and my troops kept getting bombed constantly.
 
That's really good info - it will give more challenge when playing as major.
On the other way it will make every medium or minor more impossible to play :(

I think everyone accepts this additional challenge if that's the price for seeing AI using Stukas to cover blitzkrieg through France
 
That's really good info - it will give more challenge when playing as major.
On the other way it will make every medium or minor more impossible to play :(

I think everyone accepts this additional challenge if that's the price for seeing AI using Stukas to cover blitzkrieg through France

Build more interceptors and field divisions with antiair brigade. Use those interceptors to hit unescorted bombers and use antiair brigades to survive everything else.