A BETA-preview Barbarossa AAR

[hendriks]

the game isnt gonna be an exact representation of what happened in ww2.
its just a game. The dates, casualties, doesnt have to be 100% spot on for the game to be enjoyable.
If people want an exact copy of what happened during ww2 then either build a time machine or read a book.
letting germany wipe out your division to fulfill some fantasy of ww2 unfolding right before your eyes is quite silly.

I agree about the dates and partly about the casualties, but the game is based on exact representations out of the WWII area and prior to that. Great pain has been gone through to balance things out and get historical representations, even on regimental name level!
A USSR being in Berlin in 1942 does not belong to that. Nor will it be that way in the final version I'm sure, as this AAR is based on an months old beta.

Exact representation; probably impossible as when you would replay history now with all the real persons again, the outcome would be very different, it's called hindsight. But, every nation building huge tankarmies to go on conquest sprees should not be possible, neither does a USSR holding Germany back almost on the border. when HOI1 came out, there was NO eastern front, the USSR AI was totally unable to do anything, so you didn't even need to prepare, that changed a bit later a lot already after the first few patches. We are all trying to push as hard as possible here to get as much balance in PRE-patch, or at least point it out, as we want to have a hard, challenging opponent in the AI for this more then great looking game.

[hendriks]

If you play the game ahistorically, you should not expect historical results.

Maybe something else should happen if you play that ahistorically, maybe a slap on the wrist from Stalin, as retreat was not allowed, hence, pulling back units would result in....you losing your head in front of your PC

[alanschu]

Great pain has been gone through to balance things out and get historical representations, even on regimental name level!

The regimental name level means little, as it's just there for flavour (and something I have started to wonder if Paradox should even include since people like to bitch up a storm about every little error in these things).

Maybe something else should happen if you play that ahistorically, maybe a slap on the wrist from Stalin, as retreat was not allowed, hence, pulling back units would result in....you losing your head in front of your PC

What would you suggest? A doctrine setting that prevents units from retreating?

[Cidal]

I read your AAR but didn't read this whole thread, so this might have been asked before: Is there GDE or something similar to that effect that represents early Soviet drawbacks?

[Väinö I]

I read your AAR but didn't read this whole thread, so this might have been asked before: Is there GDE or something similar to that effect that represents early Soviet drawbacks?

I doubt it, as there are now plenty of tools in the game to represent that without "artificial" mauls.

For one, in all screenies this far, Soviet officer-enlisted ratio has been shown as 75%. For comparison, Germany seems to have 150% in '36. When the value drops below 100% your troops shatter more easily, and it may have a variety of other effects as well.

[Bobb4]

I agree about the dates and partly about the casualties, but the game is based on exact representations out of the WWII area and prior to that. Great pain has been gone through to balance things out and get historical representations, even on regimental name level!
A USSR being in Berlin in 1942 does not belong to that. Nor will it be that way in the final version I'm sure, as this AAR is based on an months old beta.

Exact representation; probably impossible as when you would replay history now with all the real persons again, the outcome would be very different, it's called hindsight. But, every nation building huge tankarmies to go on conquest sprees should not be possible, neither does a USSR holding Germany back almost on the border. when HOI1 came out, there was NO eastern front, the USSR AI was totally unable to do anything, so you didn't even need to prepare, that changed a bit later a lot already after the first few patches. We are all trying to push as hard as possible here to get as much balance in PRE-patch, or at least point it out, as we want to have a hard, challenging opponent in the AI for this more then great looking game.

Let's be realistic here, while all credit to Singleton Mosby he is no Rommel (no offense)...
We are a few weeks into the AAR and everyone is crediting him with holding back the German Panzers...
He is following a what if scenario I am sure based on his experience with HOI2.
By my guestimate he is being soundly whipped. In other words the AI is playing better than in HOI2.

But anyone who wants to play an exact WW2 experience obviously does not one understand the game and two really should read all the DD first.
Johan has said countless times things should happen like they did in WW2, not that they will. The AI has free will so to speak. The fact that Finland has not joined is a good indication that maybe the German diplomatic AI has not convinced Finland to join or that maybe German has not invited finaland to the party, remember limited war options. (I stand correct on this if it cannot happen)

Lastly this is a 1941 barbarossa scenario with divisons pre-placed by the game at the start. A human german player may have a whole lot more or less to throw at the red bear come 1941...
Just my five cents.

[Third Prophecy]

This is also an older Beta build, so a lot of things -- from troop dispositions to combat values -- may have been changed, even if most of it is pretty solid.

I too believe Singleton is being smacked around -- he's not even close to holding them off. In fact, he's running away to get better ground... If you think that Germany is just going to let him set that up, you have another think coming.

The most efficient and simple move would be to have the Panzer Tanks roar past the Russian infantry, whether to blitz to the Line Single is forming, or to harry the flanks of the retreating Russians. It really depends on how fast he can beat feet to the line.

It is, in essence, a race. If Single can form a solid Line of Defense, his chances of winning go up -- but if the Germans beat him to it, or even break through, then he's probably going to be shot by a Commisar

[brisduv]

the game isnt gonna be an exact representation of what happened in ww2.
its just a game. The dates, casualties, doesnt have to be 100% spot on for the game to be enjoyable.
If people want an exact copy of what happened during ww2 then either build a time machine or read a book.
letting germany wipe out your division to fulfill some fantasy of ww2 unfolding right before your eyes is quite silly.

This is not about fulfilling some German fanboy's Barbarrosa fantasies. It is about the poor state of the Red Army in June 1941. It should not be able to stand and fight against superior German forces, in leadership, combat skills/training and operational readiness. The Germans had been planning this campaign for 6 months, the Soviet Army was going through major doctrinal changes prior to this and Stalin had ordered his troops not to raise their operational readiness despite obvious signs of a German attack. The Germans were defeated by the Soviet reserves, logistics and the weather. Two weeks into the campaign the map should not look like that. I understand this is not a simulation of the War in Russia but the whole world. All I am saying if what we are seeing here is a 1941 June start then the OOB of the German and/or Soviet forces must be flawed or the AI is not aggressive enough. I am not talking about huge encirclement battles, the AI may not be capable of that but it should be able to engage and destroy inferior forces and occupy objectives in a somewhat historical way. Time will tell but this so far makes me less wanting to buy this game than to purchase it. That is always the danger of pre-release AAR's, is it how the game will work? Back to the action...

[hendriks]

Well, he let slip a word about the "battle of Danzig", I would draw the conclusion from that that pretty soon, he's in eastern Prussia...

[hendriks]

This is not about fulfilling some German fanboy's Barbarrosa fantasies. It is about the poor state of the Red Army in June 1941. It should not be able to stand and fight against superior German forces, in leadership, combat skills/training and operational readiness. The Germans had been planning this campaign for 6 months, the Soviet Army was going through major doctrinal changes prior to this and Stalin had ordered his troops not to raise their operational readiness despite obvious signs of a German attack. The Germans were defeated by the Soviet reserves, logistics and the weather. Two weeks into the campaign the map should not look like that. I understand this is not a simulation of the War in Russia but the whole world. All I am saying if what we are seeing here is a 1941 June start then the OOB of the German and/or Soviet forces must be flawed or the AI is not aggressive enough. I am not talking about huge encirclement battles, the AI may not be capable of that but it should be able to engage and destroy inferior forces and occupy objectives in a somewhat historical way. Time will tell but this so far makes me less wanting to buy this game than to purchase it. That is always the danger of pre-release AAR's, is it how the game will work? Back to the action...

Exactly what I meant, thanks! ...apart from the wanting to buy it ...

[Sparrow]

Wasn't there supposed to be some air focus in the last couple of chapters, I shall re-read.

For all the excuses being made about the dated beta, and what is the point of a beta if you are not testing current builds, can we get an aar with a release candidate?

Still this does whet the appetite, thanks.

[TheLoneGunman]

This is not about fulfilling some German fanboy's Barbarrosa fantasies. It is about the poor state of the Red Army in June 1941. It should not be able to stand and fight against superior German forces, in leadership, combat skills/training and operational readiness. The Germans had been planning this campaign for 6 months, the Soviet Army was going through major doctrinal changes prior to this and Stalin had ordered his troops not to raise their operational readiness despite obvious signs of a German attack. The Germans were defeated by the Soviet reserves, logistics and the weather. Two weeks into the campaign the map should not look like that. I understand this is not a simulation of the War in Russia but the whole world. All I am saying if what we are seeing here is a 1941 June start then the OOB of the German and/or Soviet forces must be flawed or the AI is not aggressive enough. I am not talking about huge encirclement battles, the AI may not be capable of that but it should be able to engage and destroy inferior forces and occupy objectives in a somewhat historical way. Time will tell but this so far makes me less wanting to buy this game than to purchase it. That is always the danger of pre-release AAR's, is it how the game will work? Back to the action...

Don't lose faith because of an out-dated beta AAR.

He's trying to show some of the cool new features in the game, not how accurate the Eastern Front was at the time they released that beta to the press corps.

He's also said that so far, the AI is handling the war very well and is winning. Much more than we can usually say for the German AI in HOI2.

Let's not think the game is crap before it's even out.

[Aubrey]

I too believe Singleton is being smacked around -- he's not even close to holding them off. In fact, he's running away to get better ground... If you think that Germany is just going to let him set that up, you have another think coming.

Err...isn't that Russian Defence 101? Give up territory to gain time and draw out the invader's supply lines and exhaust his army? I seem to recall Napolean struggled a bit with that, too...

[Baneslave]

For all the excuses being made about the dated beta, and what is the point of a beta if you are not testing current builds, can we get an aar with a release candidate?

Maybe, because he is previewer, not betatester? (I am not sure if Singleton Mosby is actually a betatester).

Indeed, I am just writing the most massive and in depth preview you have ever seen of a game

To repeat: Singleton Mosby isn't a beta tester, so he doesn't have the newest beta build.

[Registered]

For all the excuses being made about the dated beta, and what is the point of a beta if you are not testing current builds, can we get an aar with a release candidate?

Singleton is a reviewer, not a beta testers. I'm guessing the devs and beta-testers have better things to do right now than write AARs (as nice as those would be).

@brisduv: This isn't what the frontline should look like with and AI vs AI game. A human player, however, knows what's about to happen and won't make the mistakes that Stalin made.
Plus, it is a beta. We've no idea what balancing has been done in the mean time.

[Singleton Mosby]

Let's be realistic here, while all credit to Singleton Mosby he is no Rommel (no offense)...
We are a few weeks into the AAR and everyone is crediting him with holding back the German Panzers...
He is following a what if scenario I am sure based on his experience with HOI2.
By my guestimate he is being soundly whipped. In other words the AI is playing better than in HOI2.

I too believe Singleton is being smacked around -- he's not even close to holding them off. In fact, he's running away to get better ground... If you think that Germany is just going to let him set that up, you have another think coming.

At the moment I am pushed back but not shattered like the Soviets were historical. My main line of resistance is way to the west of the historical line as well, altough I wouldn't be sure if I can hold the Stalin line if I can get the Beta to keep up as long as september or october. There are two reasons for this however:
1. the Germans don't uttilize their mechanized force to their full potential. Instead of quick stricking forces they batter them against my main points of resistance.
2. My troops are perhaps a bit too strong but more important, there are so many of them. I have no idea about the number of German units at this point but I have hundreds upon hundreds of divisions.

To repeat: Singleton Mosby isn't a beta tester, so he doesn't have the newest beta build.

Thank you. I wish I had a newer version

@brisduv: This isn't what the frontline should look like with and AI vs AI game. A human player, however, knows what's about to happen and won't make the mistakes that Stalin made.

I might very well give this scenario a second try and opt for the historical strategy and next play as the Germans and blitzkrieg, which will be the most widly used strategy once the game is out.

[Sparrow]

I love the same excuses over and over again. Honestly I do love the aar but we are getting rather late in the game for lame excuses such as two month old beta builds. It's not 1995 and metered internet usage last I checked. Turn on those brains instead of getting defensive. This is a preview of a limited functionality game and it does matter because the German AI should be involved in a sea battle in the atlantic and the med along with North Africa at this point. So it does play into how much resources it is allocating to the Ost Front and what the player is experiencing.

As a paying customer I want to hear that the naval and strat ai are working. I want to see a preview that actually talks about what is going on in the air game instead of saying I'll post it in the next couple of chapters and does not.

How can you have a real preview with non functional aspects of the game?

Make all the excuses you want however in the end they are still excuses. I am going to buy this on day one but at this point I'm expecting to be disappointed and left waiting for a couple of expansions and a mod to get a decent game out of this as usual. After so many games it gets a bit tiring of this same song and dance.

The only reason I go into this detail is because of people constantly saying it's ok that everything is dated. BOH!

[Naga Niome]

Well I think the AI is doing a very good job, I was honestly hoping it would "Blitzkrieg" into several parts of his defense because it inches in chinks of his whole retreating line, but hasn't taken the effort to go 3+ provinces eastwards.

I hope the AI makes pincers towards objectives it has to capture and ends up swallowing Singleton across the Dniepr river.

I am watching this to see Germany crush him lol.

[SiRanger]

I wish to thank Singleton for his willingness to take time to write-up the preview with an early beta build. The insight into the game has only whetted my appetite for August 11th (when Amazon has told me to expect delivery -- but, I'm hoping its the 8th).

[Registered]

As a paying customer I want to hear that the naval and strat ai are working. I want to see a preview that actually talks about what is going on in the air game instead of saying I'll post it in the next couple of chapters and does not.

So how much have you paid Singleton?

Perhaps you should try sacrificing a goat, that often works on the devs.