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Thread: Development Diary #35 - 1st of July 2009

  1. #141
    Dominus et Deuculus Keraunos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Seil View Post
    That has nothing to do with my question

    Here -

    If activated, will the Theater AI control only units assigned to it in the order of battle, or will it control all units within its own area that are not assigned to other Theaters (directly or indirectly)?
    As I understand it, earlier on it has been stated that units are commanded by AI based on assigment. That's why if you take command of individual unit, you 'deactivate' (AI-wise) entire tree. Also, Johan has stated in this tread that to make an invasion you need to attach naval units to land command.

    So it seems that it will only control units assigned to it, not within its own area. AI doesn't seem to be able to reorganize command structure in Player-controlled countries.
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  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauri View Post
    I'm pretty certain you can't make new theatres
    In that case, you could make many theatres, and have lots of bonuses applied to lots of units or, well... decreasing ranges for them, so logistics wouldn't be too much a problem..
    However, reading the AI Control DD does make it looks like I might've been wrong...

    And as for inteligence for the AI
    I'm pretty sure you're wrong Bonuses are assigned to units via command structure, and you cannot assign one unit to more then one, say, theatre command. As each command have certain radius of influence, it's gonna be counter-productive to have more command units.
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  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Seil View Post
    That still doesn't answer the question of which units it controls - just those attached to it, or those stationed in the region and not attached to any other regions.

    The problem is that a Theater is both an area on the map and a formation like any other. It's unclear what the interaction there is.
    No, it is pretty clear and has been answered.

    The theatre only controls whatever unit is attached to it and nothing else.

    The difference to other AI HQs is that while it works towards its objectives, it does it within the context of the region, which it is responsible for.

    Example:
    Imagine you have a German Eastern front theatre with the historic three army groups north south and centre.

    Now you decide to take away 70% percent of the forces of army group centre and put it to manual control, but you do not move it.

    So the theatre AI of the Eastern front will spot a big gap in army group centre. It can not plan with your now manually controlled force because you might start to redeploy this at any time to any other place in the world.
    So the theatre AI will shuffle around its forces and move forces from army group north and south to the centre so that the frontline matches the opponent everywhere as best as possible.

    So I think you see that if your intention is really to keep the manually controlled forces in the region of Germany's Eastern front, then from an overall perspective your forces will not work together well. Of course, when you only manually control one or two divisions in the region this effect is hardly noticeable. And maybe over time you learn what works and what not.

    But in general, if your goal is to mess around with army group centre, then you should remove the AI control from the theatre, put army groups north and south unter AI control and manually control army group centre. In this case it is also clear that you as player have also the task to do the overall coordination of the Eastern front theatre.
    Last edited by joeenochs; 01-07-2009 at 23:53.

  4. #144
    As another example, if you want to pull of an invasion to England then you have to assign forces to this and you have to use these forces entirely towards this goal.

    So if you assign the Western theatre AI the task to perform an invasion to England, it will have a very hard time to decide how many forces it should invade England with and how many forces it should keep in France to defend the coast. On the other hand, if there are two theatres, one for England and one for the rest of the Western front, then both theatres can concentrate on their tasks. And the player or the AI overall war planning entity will decide what theatre gets what ressources.

  5. #145
    Second Lieutenant NrmK's Avatar
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    Yes, well... What can I say? It was 23:30 here in Finland when I wrote. Tired and unrational, don't listen me x)

    That depends on can you give several objectives to one theatre/army group, I think.
    Case 1. You can give AI theatre "East": Moscow, Leningrad, Kiev as objectives.
    Case 2. You can give only one objective: Moscow OR Leningrad OR Kiev. Right?
    I'd prefer case 1.

  6. #146
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    Sweet bejeebus! That's really cool Johan, thanks!
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  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by liebgot View Post
    Though Germans in eastern front had 3 army groups not 3 Theaters,its seems to me interesting to form(if such thing will be possible of course) 3 german AI theatares for Eastern front.
    I mean 200 or what German divisions is realy much for one colosal AI Eeastern theater, I mean certainly will be more efective if actualy will be 3 theaters(North, Center ,South).
    Barbarrosa was so immense battlefield that one german Army group had up to 80 divisions at some points/as well in game, and thats the size in a rank of Allied theaters.
    Historical aproach of Germans towards their army groups on eastern front could be understand hat those were practicaly different theaters.For instance in 1942 Germans put an accent on strenghtening only South group(not enough resources to strenghten all 3)and logistical an other support aproach tells as that South group at least in preparation for offensive in 1942 is considerred as,allmost, separate theater.

    There is allso a question I currently cant answer to myself:
    If my eastern front is one and only big eastern Theater,and that theater I choosed to be led by AI..than can I give separate orders to army groups that are under the command of this AI theater?. Will AI theater understand that I want him to advance in 3 directions-Leningrad, Moscow, Kiev?Can I give an order to Theater to atack simultaneously in 3 directions? 3 goals?If not,than how can I give order to subordinated unit of this AI theater to atack in different directions when those units are allready under AI theater control?
    Or maybee Me to be coommander of Eastern theater and than army groups to leave to AI with their separate orders?

    So many questions I cant wait to answer myself when I download the game..its 34 days left.. isnt it!?
    It is not a good idea. Only the Eastern front as a whole is a good theatre, the army groups can't be.

    Read Manstein. (Or read wikipedia)
    In his book there is a sentence like:
    There comes a time, where even the commander of an army group has to coordinate with other army groups.

    You could never say this sentence about the western front when you are in charge of the eastern front. If the Americans land in the Normandie, the Eastern front is not directly affected. Only that it probably gets less ressources.

    On the other hand, if army group centre breaks, army group south is in danger of being encircled. It is not so hard to understand.

    Exactly for this reason Manstein urged Hitler to appoint a field marshal who would be responsible for the entire Eastern front and who would report to Hitler. This never happened and it might be that this is why Germany lost the war.

    Also, if the theatre is AI contolled, there is no way for you to manually control any unit below the theatre. And it is exactly because the AI can't now what the player does. But it would have to know to coordinate.
    Last edited by joeenochs; 01-07-2009 at 23:51.

  8. #148
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    Personal command... I had completely forgotten that x3. Whups?
    Well, no matter. I intend to play mostly with AI on because I want to see how good it is really.

  9. #149
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    Wouldnt just leaving the theater under manual control and give the army groups under it to the ai with clear objectives (if this is possible, I think it is but I am not 100% sure) have the same results?

    so just go one step below theater in the hierarchy to organize your troops better (or more to your liking)

    I hope this is possible

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by lordashran View Post
    Wouldnt just leaving the theater under manual control and give the army groups under it to the ai with clear objectives (if this is possible, I think it is but I am not 100% sure) have the same results?

    so just go one step below theater in the hierarchy to organize your troops better (or more to your liking)

    I hope this is possible
    Yes, it is possible.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by NrmK View Post
    You welcome, I think
    I can't of course say anything surely but I have always imagined that we can create on Theatre for anything we want to.
    As Germany
    One for Poland
    One for Fall Gelb
    One for Seelöwe
    One for Mediterranian
    One for Africa
    Three for Barbarossa and one more to Finland
    Et cetera.
    Actually you probably only want one Theatre HQ facing the SU. Otherwise the AI would not be able to balance the front, respond to enemy troop movements and use reserves properly. The 'Nord' 'Mitte' and 'Süd' Armies can easily be subordinated to a Theatre HQ, or so I imagine. Apparently size does not matter, at least not concerning # of divisions (or army corps) below Theatre HQs in HoI3.
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  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by 33Vortex View Post
    Actually you probably only want one Theatre HQ facing the SU. Otherwise the AI would not be able to balance the front, respond to enemy troop movements and use reserves properly. The 'Nord' 'Mitte' and 'Süd' Armies can easily be subordinated to a Theatre HQ, or so I imagine. Apparently size does not matter, at least not concerning # of divisions (or army corps) below Theatre HQs in HoI3.

    But it's no fun.. I can't play Hitler and change places of entire armies between Heeresgruppes if they are under one HQ

    Quote Originally Posted by liebgot View Post
    I believe mostly AI is same as enemy AI(with some tech and doctrine difference of course and leaders give a bonuses),but main difference if we leave AI to drive armies is our capability to envisone concentrations of forces and directions of atack and that requires strategical thinking and understanding of our forces, ground and enemy.

    At the end,maybee, it will be found that best will be that even army groups HQ-s will be under our command, but armies and corps beneath to be left to AI.Than a orders of the same goal to different armies and corps on different positions will be used for instance for concentrated atacks.Well planned combinations of goals given to AI armies culd even produce large encirclements.

    I allways wanted to se this game where player will be abnle to play on many levels.
    Single divisions level(if someone wants)
    Corps and army level,
    Army group level,
    Theater level.
    Thats exactly what we will get with this capital game I hope!
    Giving some armies/korps to AI and controlling some of them would be really good. Give AI order to "Stand your ground" and then use manually cotrolled Panzerarmees to pinzer entire armies.
    Or ordering AI to move in one unified front and controlling some armoured formations?
    Last edited by NrmK; 02-07-2009 at 00:09.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by NrmK View Post
    But it's no fun.. I can't play Hitler and change places of entire armies between Heeresgruppes if they are under one HQ
    Of course you can. Only that this HQ can't be AI controlled.

    You can have three AI controlled army groups under one manual controlled theatre. Since the theatre is manually controlled, it is you, who assigns the armys to the three army groups.

    Only thing you can't do is put army group south under AI control (in real life it was Manstein) and at the same time tell the 6th army to hold Stalingrad at all costs. So yes, you can't do every insanity in the game, Hitler was capable of doing. This is because Johan is proud of the AI performance and does not want to see it perform poorly.
    Last edited by joeenochs; 02-07-2009 at 00:19.

  14. #154
    Second Lieutenant NrmK's Avatar
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    Could I remove 6th army as an entirely separate formation under the theatre? So it would be separate from any other formation (armygroups etc.) under the theatre HQ? That could solve the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by liebgot View Post
    Orr..give to armies composed by infantery to be led by AI and give them some goal to catch stright forward .I the same time by youself command elite panzer group, than pass or bypass your advancing AI "foot" armies and stab the enemy frontline, encircle..and leave AI armies to deal with enemy pockets you formed while you are resting your tanks for even deeper pincer move.

    This game,if this kind of mixed Player/ AI command of armies will be possible,now seems to me will even offer a kind of roleplaying,realy...
    I am Guderian ,called "fast Heinz.. move away..me and my panzer group will do a mirracles where ever is needed and you ordinary(AI) soldiers can follow me if you want and can.
    It could simulate some intereting personal hatered between commanders Heeresgruppe is commanded by Model who orders slow andance but commander of 5th Panzerarmee von Manteuffel doesn't listen and punctures a hole thought the front

    P.S. I just remembered that I have a goddamn dentist tomorrow morning at 9:45... And it almost half past one... There goes my beauty sleep...

  15. #155
    I'm pretty sure you're wrong Bonuses are assigned to units via command structure, and you cannot assign one unit to more then one, say, theatre command. As each command have certain radius of influence, it's gonna be counter-productive to have more command units.
    A unit can't be in more than one theatre, that's correct. However, since the theatre HQ has a range, say an Eastern Front division in Leningrad won't get a bonus if the HQ's in Kiev (for example), but, if you make a new theatre for the upper part of Soviet, it will get the bonus, thus everyone get's bonuses
    Get my point? You'd be able to eliminate the lack of bonuses... If you're good enough

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by NrmK View Post
    Could I remove 6th army as an entirely separate formation under the theatre? So it would be separate from any other formation (armygroups etc.) under the theatre HQ? That could solve the problem.

    P.S. I just remembered that I have a goddamn dentist tomorrow morning at 9:45... And it almost half past one... There goes my beauty sleep.
    Yes.

    You can attach the 6th army directly to the Eastern front theatre HQ. If that is manually controlled, then you are fine.

    And of course you can also always remove it totally from the theatre and still move freely in the region.

    Of course as each level in the chain of command provides boni, you are losing these boni entirely or parts of it.

    Good luck for tomorrow. :-)

  17. #157
    Second Lieutenant NrmK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeenochs View Post
    Yes.

    You can attach the 6th army directly to the Eastern front theatre HQ. If that is manually controlled, then you are fine.

    And of course you can also always remove it totally from the theatre and still move freely in the region.

    Of course as each level in the chain of command provides boni, you are losing these boni entirely or parts of it.

    Good luck for tomorrow. :-)
    I don't need any bonuses, I'm a military genious (Sound's familiar?)

    Thanks, just have to hope that I don't fall asleep in the nice chair...

    Quote Originally Posted by liebgot View Post
    dddeentist!?

    Good night(I believe?)
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    Last edited by NrmK; 02-07-2009 at 00:42.

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by NrmK View Post
    But it's no fun.. I can't play Hitler and change places of entire armies between Heeresgruppes if they are under one HQ
    You mean, you can't f*** things up?
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  19. #159
    Second Lieutenant NrmK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 33Vortex View Post
    You mean, you can't f*** things up?
    Excactly It's no fun winning always so sometimes you have to be historical and screw everything up.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by NrmK View Post
    I don't need any bonuses, I'm a military genious (Sound's familiar?)

    Thanks, just have to hope that I don't fall asleep in the nice chair...
    Half asleep in the chair after few sleep in the night is probably not so bad. This is my way to deal with the situation sometimes.

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