I won't argue it was dominated by men, your right in that. Men of that time period were very dominant and women were second class citizens(still are in some parts of that region). I inferred from your post you thought women didn't play a role in the shipping industry of the time, they did, but I'll stipulate it was mostly behind the scenes.
Im sure women had a huge role in boosting the morale in the dock areas. :P
Wasn't it considered unlucky to have women on board?
nah that is only an urban legend...
im guessing you saw Pirates of the Caribbean? :P
Its a superstition not an urban legend. There is many superstitions of sailing and in old days some people took them very seriously. There were people who thought woman gave bad luck on a ship as she might have caused trouble with the sailors even if she would haven't ment to do so. In a small closed area sometimes up to several months or more a man could get little fustrated and parading a woman infront of their eyes every day would not help that fustration at all. So in short a woman could bring bad luck to the ship as it might cause problems along the way.Originally Posted by Ginko
omg... the urban legend is that it is a superstition. Cause it never was a superstition, hence it is simply an urban legend cooked up by Hollywood and fantasy writers.
If i started my lecture how about i add something. Sailors never thought the earth was flat. This is also an urban legend. Picture this: when a ship emerges from the horizon, can you see the entire ship? No, only the masts. What does this mean? It means that the earth is not flat but rounded. The sailors knew this, it was the clergy that thought otherwise.
Wezqu, you seem like the kind of lad that likes to stick his nose and play the smart guy. Well maybe you are, you got any proof that it was actually recorded that sailors thought it would bring bad luck? If you do, please show us. Otherwise it is not true, and its merely an URBAN LEGEND.
They did? In any numbers? Can you give some evidence to support that? Thanks.
I believe it was fairly common for Royal Navy ships to carry women. Sometimes the captain's wife or mistress would travel. They were usually wives of the Petty Officers, such as the master gunner or the chief bosun. These were not considered women as they were married and were typically not the sweet young things the term 'women' brings to mind. Many of these women helped take care of the midshipmen and ships boys, some of which could be as young 6 or 8. They also helped out in the sick bay during and after battle.
The British East India company also routinely carried women as passengers on the larger Indiamen.
I'll be happy to work on references for you, yes.
Still waiting for that demo...
Last edited by Casikat; 01-07-2009 at 02:48.
Interesting. Thanks!
Cruizer... finally someone who actually does his research properly, thanks for the info mate.
I heard all my life that it used to be considered unlucky to have women aboard ship. A simple Google search supports that, as can be seen here, here, and here, for example.
But since I live in the United States and since I am not a native American nor descended from one, some female ancestor of mine had to emigrate from somewhere several hundred years ago, and she certainly didn't catch a flight or swim here.
Press on. Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not: Nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not: Unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education alone will not: The world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. --Calvin Coolidge
Greybriar,
NONE of your links have any actual evidence, support. Those links are useless. I could pretty much write an article anywhere about a "famous" female captain, and if you happen to find it on google would you use it as "evidence" to support your points? No, you woudnt. Becasue i dont have any documents to support my article. The same way you cant use those articles. (plus the 1st and 3rd are the same.. :P... and the 2nd one says that its an URBAN LEGEND that sailors had such superstition. and come on, seriously... Timeless Myths? You seriously think that is a valid source? :P
cruizer,
Where di you get your info if I may ask? Im niterested, cause I belive its true and id like to read further into it.
I believe if you follow Greybriar's third link you will find at the top a link "Wives and the seas". Which does support my claim.
Sorry I do not have any firm reference which support my claim. It is based on years of reading about the subject of the Age of Sail. The bulk of my knowledge comes from reading the complete series by C.S. Forrester, Patrick O'Brien, James L Nelson and Alexander Kent. I have also had the pleasure of reading several of Fredrick Merryat books, whom actually served in the royal navy in the early 1800s. I realize these are deemed historical fiction and that the main story is fictionalized, but I know James Nelson and Patrick O'Brien particularly went to great lengths to research the time period. The early to middle O'Brien books give a particularly good portrayal the daily life of the period and give the books great depth. O'Briens books are based on the life of Thomas Cochrane.
I have also read several non-fiction books such as Nelson's Navy and others. But I cannot point to specific titles. James L Nelson wrote a couple non-fiction books about pirates one specifically about women pirates.
Then kindly provide some authoritative sources to support your own claim instead of attempting to debunk others.
Press on. Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not: Nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not: Unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education alone will not: The world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. --Calvin Coolidge
Errr... evidence for an Urban Legend? The whole point of a Legend that it doesnt have an actual written source... (I could really say something funny now, but i dont want to hurt your feelings :P )
That is authoritative source? Any names of who wrote it? Where they got their info from?
Im not an expert on this, but cruizer provided authoritative sources, so check those out mate, im sure I will!
I'm not here to prove anything. It is you who is spouting off, so YOU put up or shut up.Im not an expert on this, but cruizer provided authoritative sources, so check those out mate, im sure I will!
Press on. Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not: Nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not: Unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education alone will not: The world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. --Calvin Coolidge
Im merely pointing out that you are wrong. And as I see you have no further authentive sources forcing you to rely on childish provocations. Sad.
Could have been a fun arguement... ohwell... bollocks.
I'm not trying to be insulting or anything but now you are yourself playing as know it all. You are stating that other people are wrong when everybody knows there has been women on board on ships even in those eras. This doesn't make it imposible to have people who really believed that it ment bad luck to have them onboard. This statement can be clearly shown true in this example. Even if most of the persons believe there is a god doesn't make it so that some other people can't believe there is no god. Only shape of this folklore I would say to be an urban legend is that no women was allowed at all to be on ships, but them believing to bring bad luck is not a myth as some sailors believed it would anger the sea god that was a female. One reason why figure heads on the ships were usually bare brest women is because naked woman was thought to calm the seas. So naked woman brought good luck and woman cloths on bad. So in fact the figure head would cancel the bad luck if woman would be on board.
Also its a fact that has been in several documentaries of sea travel but if you want to ignore that fact also then do so. I can't state any such documentaries as I don't remember them by name or even if I did I could not state the name in english.
Last edited by Wezqu; 02-07-2009 at 01:00.
Ok, here is how an arguement goes: we both take a side and argue our points. Truely we should have both researched more on this topic, but because we are both very impatient we didnt. Then once you have your sources, you present them.
I havent found the books cruizer mentioned, but I havent found anything that would mention that such a superstition existed. Now, why would I ignore the fact that there were certain documentaries of sea travel that mentioned this superstition? Is it my fault that I havent had the chance to find it yet. Please, if you do find the name, tell me... id be very interested to watch it.
Lets do this maturely. You dont have to get offended if I am boldy argueing my points. Its not an attack against you. Show me the info, written documents... that is how you argue, not by "offending" me or trying to provoke me. :P
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