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Thread: AI-question for Paradox.

  1. #41
    Studio Manager Paradox Dev Team Johan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Rehab View Post
    @Johan:

    Hi there Johan. This is Kieran from the Creative Assembly, the chaps behind Empire.

    Forgive me if I cut to the chase, It's not particularly sporting (Or accurate) to suggest Empire 'has no AI'.

    I appreciate I may have misread your remark, but I note several other readers have taken it the same way and in two subsequent posts you havn't bothered to correct them, so I can only assume it was your intention to take a swipe at Empire.

    If I'm wrong, please do let me know. Otherwise meet me on Hang Man's Hill at midday, the weapon is swords.

    Yours,
    Kieran
    Sorry.

    Just was irritated after paying for the game at releasedate and basically winning every single battle first try.

    Then having the AI being unable to build armies that were challenging (even if you had no clue about the gamemechanics, which the manual did not explain.)

    Basically I was able to knock out denmark in 1 year as Sweden by just marching the troops i had at start to christiania and kobenhavn.

    It felt like "build something random, and move armies randomly at weak positions". The AI in eu1 was a bigger challenge and that one could not handle more than 2 targets per country.

    We've been slaughtered for bad ai in games as well, but I'd expect that if you got a budget over 1M USD you'd be able to have at least 1 guy at AI for a year

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  2. #42
    Major mbabbs's Avatar
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    I have to agree that at launch, whilst ETW is enjoyable, its not because of the AI.

    I'm waiting for patches and mods to make it playable.

    ........having said that I will be waiting for the first patch before I delve into HOI3 aswell.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Johan View Post
    Sorry.

    Just was irritated after paying for the game at releasedate and basically winning every single battle first try.

    Then having the AI being unable to build armies that were challenging (even if you had no clue about the gamemechanics, which the manual did not explain.)

    Basically I was able to knock out denmark in 1 year as Sweden by just marching the troops i had at start to christiania and kobenhavn.

    It felt like "build something random, and move armies randomly at weak positions". The AI in eu1 was a bigger challenge and that one could not handle more than 2 targets per country.

    We've been slaughtered for bad ai in games as well, but I'd expect that if you got a budget over 1M USD you'd be able to have at least 1 guy at AI for a year
    First, thanks for buying Empire.

    Second, if I may, as we know the fans will have their say and are the last, and most critical line of judgement. Rightly so as they're our customers.

    So, as a player, we appreciated your feedback and interest in Empire.

    Hopefully you'll feel more challenged with the upcoming release of the new Multiplayer Campaign beta. I'm sure one of our many AI programmers would be up for a game if you're looking for opposition...

  4. #44
    Philosopher of the Future Alexander Seil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gigalocus View Post
    Not much has been mentioned about AI except 'its much better' so I'm eagly waiting the mechanics of the AI Particuarlly to see how well they adapt to changing conditions, something that was poorly handled in HOI2.
    I overlooked this part of the post before.

    That's actually not all that we know about the AI. For example, we know that the operational and strategic AIs are distinct (i.e., the other countries' strategic AIs are sort of like players ordering around their military subordinates). We know that operational AI, if ordered, can do things like falling back to more favorable defensive positions.

    Most intriguing is that the AI, apparently, remembers the overall situation to some extent and refers to this "memory" to see if any changes have occurred.

  5. #45
    If I'm wrong, please do let me know. Otherwise meet me on Hang Man's Hill at midday, the weapon is swords.
    Please guys, wait at least until HOI3 is out
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  6. #46
    General Will Lucky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Rehab View Post
    I'm sure one of our many AI programmers would be up for a game if you're looking for opposition...
    Johan, Paradox's honor is at stake here I advice accepting and then soundly smashing him to pieces.

  7. #47
    Philosopher of the Future Alexander Seil's Avatar
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    Make it interesting.

    Find some freeware/open source/whatever game with a programmable AI (I'm sure there's some version of chess coded in Java or something that could be ripped to pieces for this purpose).

    Then it's Johan's best AI coder versus Creative Assembly's best AI coder in a contest to assemble a winning AI in two weeks (by winning I mean winning two matches in a row).

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Seil View Post
    Make it interesting.

    Find some freeware/open source/whatever game with a programmable AI (I'm sure there's some version of chess coded in Java or something that could be ripped to pieces for this purpose).

    Then it's Johan's best AI coder versus Creative Assembly's best AI coder in a contest to assemble a winning AI in two weeks (by winning I mean winning two matches in a row).
    Pop will eat itself ....

    Rather have third party reviewers come to the reasonable conclusion that HOI3 is the better game
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Seil View Post
    Make it interesting.

    Find some freeware/open source/whatever game with a programmable AI (I'm sure there's some version of chess coded in Java or something that could be ripped to pieces for this purpose).

    Then it's Johan's best AI coder versus Creative Assembly's best AI coder in a contest to assemble a winning AI in two weeks (by winning I mean winning two matches in a row).
    chess isnt a very good test to be honest. its very different from your average computer game in how the AI is handled. "Go" though might be interesting >:-) good humans still win that consistently against computers afaik.

  10. #50
    Lt. General azid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Rehab View Post
    @Johan:
    ....
    If I'm wrong, please do let me know. Otherwise meet me on Hang Man's Hill at midday, the weapon is swords.

    Yours,
    Kieran....
    hahahahahahah
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  11. #51
    Lt. General Fulmen's Avatar
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    Ooh, Paradox Interactive vs Creative Assembly.

  12. #52
    Second Lieutenant JonReb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fulmen View Post
    Ooh, Paradox Interactive vs Creative Assembly.
    Guess who wins.

    (Ok, I admit this forum is biased)

  13. #53
    Uncivil Servant Velko's Avatar
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    Well yeah, but we must remember that the whole idea of Pdox games and TW series is completely different. TW games focus on tactical level battles, where you see neat cohorts of infantry clashing into each other and men dieing and so on. Here in Paradox you move some counters, get a dice roll and a report of the outcome. I've heard people compare ETW and EU3, and I think that's mostly useless. ETW doesn't try to match EU3's campaign in terms of complexity or AI: it is not necessary, because the game has a different focus. EU3 (nor HoI3, for that matter) does not feature cool battles of infantry lines and artillery, because the game has a different focus. OK, the ETW campaign AI is a bit silly now, but I believe it will be improved sooner or later. I am enjoying both Paradox games and Empire Total War. (although I still consider myself a Paradoxian rather than a Totalwarrior...)
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  14. #54
    But the truth is that CA failed to deliver a working AI for ETW. The AI is a total mess, indeed most of the game is a mess.

    If I were CA I would be looking to find answers internally and sack the muppets who failed to deliver. I have spectrum games that had a better AI and more features.

    Even with their new MP expansion that will allow a 2 player game, its not going to work if the rest of the countries under AI control can't do basic things like send troops overseas or make peace etc.

  15. #55
    Hopefully you'll feel more challenged with the upcoming release of the new Multiplayer Campaign beta. I'm sure one of our many AI programmers would be up for a game if you're looking for opposition...
    Does that mean the game still won't have an AI of its own?

  16. #56
    Second Lieutenant Steeltrap's Avatar
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    Well I've played ALL the TW series, way back to Shogun.

    I've played HoI2 extensively.

    I also bought EU: Rome.

    So as a customer:

    1. ETW is a disgrace as released. If I could be bothered jamming it back to my retailer on the grounds it fails under the Sales of Goods Act (1912, I think) I would. I like my retailer, however, and I don't want to fight them over CA's abysmal job, especially as the 'compulsory registration' really screws the retailer. I suspect CA/Sega does that so they don't face a tidal wave of people taking their crap release back for the $$.

    2. HoI2 was brilliant, and FAR more complicated than any TW game.

    3. I though EU:Rome sucked at release. I stopped playing it within 1 month of buying it and have never gone back to it.

    4. Based on the dev diaries here, and the way Paradox genuinely engages with their customers, I will buy HoI3.

    5. Based on the comparative contempt with which CA deals with its customers (try posting legitimate criticism or requesting help from SEGA/CA), AND the fact that they seem not to learn anything from their previous releases (e.g. pathfinding and the fact the AI NEVER disbands obsolete units, just to name a couple of continued failures in their games, and I could probably list 20+ such things that have a considerable effect on the AI's ability to play effectively), hell will freeze over before I buy another CA game within 6 months of its release (if not longer).

    Cheers
    p.s. Congrats to Johan for getting a response from CA. That's something most of their customers have no hope of achieving. Guess it helps to run another game company with a good rep....
    Last edited by Steeltrap; 10-06-2009 at 14:43.

  17. #57
    Field Marshal bbasgen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Rehab View Post
    First, thanks for buying Empire.
    I'm sure you guys have great sales numbers, but I'm one of presumably many that won't buy your game due to the litany of problems, namely a poor AI. I've been a fan of the TW series with Medieval 1 and bought every game since.... stopping at your latest.
    Last edited by bbasgen; 10-06-2009 at 14:49.
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  18. #58
    First member of the 200k club finyou2's Avatar
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    Here should be warning for those who support Total War, as people here doesn't seem to have good experience from it.

  19. #59
    Part Time Game Designer King's Avatar
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    Although I do apprecaite that everyone has an opinion about ETW (apart from me it seems as I never bought it). I think that perhaps we could move this dicussion back onto HoI3. We've all had our fun but let's play the discuss HoI3 game now, otherwise King we throw a sulk and take the ball home with him
    Nostalgia is not as good as it used to be

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steeltrap View Post
    3. I though EU:Rome sucked at release. I stopped playing it within 1 month of buying it and have never gone back to it.
    give it another go now after patches + expansion

    EDIT: I swear i didnt see the above post when I posted :P

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