Is this a Pyrrhic victory?

[Dead William]

Usually my sea battles against the UK as Germany last a few days at most, before I retreat to save my navy dfrom damage. This one lasted more than 14 days... Anyway, my Kriegsmarine at this time consisted of three CV IV's, the 11 CA, 5 CL 36 DD and 12 TP. Attempting Seelöwe I got into a battle with about 80 odd British ships.

German losses:
Graf Zeppelin (CV)
Scheer CA
Lützow CA
Deutschland CA
Prinz Eugen CA
Slight damage to other ships

British losses:
Resolution, Warspite, Ramillies, Royal Sovereign, Valiant, Rodney, Barham, Queen Elizabeth, Malaya (Battleships)
Courageous, Ark Royal, Furious, Glorious (Carriers) Eagle (CVL)
Repulse, Hood, (Battle cruisers)
York, Exeter, London, Shropshire, Norfolk, Royal Oak (Heavy cruisers)

Is this a great victory or a net loss? A lot of old ships in the British list. Six CV's in three paralel builds going and two new CA to come off the ramps within the month, new series to start as soon as the new tech is researched.
Opinions?
DW

[ecnan02]

I'm going to score this as a German win. 9 BBs, 2 BCs and 4 CVs take a lot of time to replace, I don't care who you are. Too bad about the loss of your CV and CAs, but I think that you came out ahead. The real test of whether you got a strategic win though is whether or not your beachhead got established on England.

[Gigalocus]

Royal Oak is a battleship no?

That is quite a good victory though ...

[alan_le_cowboy]

Did you finally manage to do Sealion?
If yes, its a victory. If not, a lost.

Naval warfare for itself does not bring anything in the game.

[CharonJr]

IMO the main question is, what was your objective ?

And the next question would be how much of the RN is still active in your theater ? Is the RN still able to project its force ?

Your sure did a lot of damage to the RN, but unless the Kriegsmarine now rules the seas at will (at least in your area of operation) I would not call it a decisive victory, but it surely is a victory.

CharonJr

[Mattabesta]

loss you are the human player losing one CV is eqal too 10 AI cv's the player should NEVER loose carriers.

[son of liberty]

loss you are the human player losing one CV is eqal too 10 AI cv's the player should NEVER loose carriers.

Never? I have "never" never lost a carrier. Losing one carrier to achieve your mission objective, in this case sealion, can be acceptable.

[LiamRiordan]

Its a tactical victory, and a IC victory in my eyes. But at a strategic level it can be classed as a stalemate. Since the RN has a lot of ships under their beck and call with allies. German ships can be a pain to replace early in the game, if you've got France though, and as you said you got some other ships on the way, it it close to victory on the seas.

Keep the enemy Navy locked down and kill them convoys, they be smugglin your booty!

Nice battle by the way, the best I got was sinking 3 US Carriers after losing 7 Battleships... Darn Argentinians...

[ecnan02]

Never? I have "never" never lost a carrier. Losing one carrier to achieve your mission objective, in this case sealion, can be acceptable.

I agree. Sometimes when you're in a real "ball buster" battle, things happen. Just like in real life, the player should not be afraid to take losses. Playing (and fighting) that way actually causes more.

In this case, inflicting these kind of losses against the UK, this is a win, any way you look at it. The UK can't replace 15+ capital ships in any sort of time. And with its fleet being the UK's only real shield, this is a HUGE hit. Even for the US, 15+ capital ships (and I really discount CAs here) is a big blow.

My biggest grump is the US naval bombers that chew up my CTFs sinking CVs and BBs with none of their own losses. What are my CAGs doing???? I just hope that HOI 3 addresses this properly.

[EnglandWarrior]

If you managed a successful Sealion then I would chalk it up as a Strategic Victory.

If you didn't Sealion but the destruction has left it possible - within the near future - then I'd say it was more of a tactical victory.

If you can't Sealion for a while I'd say it was more of a stalemate-minor victory.

[Le Jones]

If you managed a successful Sealion then I would chalk it up as a Strategic Victory.

If you didn't Sealion but the destruction has left it possible - within the near future - then I'd say it was more of a tactical victory.

If you can't Sealion for a while I'd say it was more of a stalemate-minor victory.

I'd agree with this - and the comment that the UK will struggle to replace these losses.

[safferli]

Personally, I'd count this as a victory. You've beat the superior doctrine and admiral-lead RN quite significantly. Plus, you're replacements are practically finished, so you can exploit this move.

Interestingly, Germany can win the war of naval attrition very easily, in HoI2... And you just leveled the playingfield with that win.

Now, if you additionally lost all of your TPs, filled with Mar and Arm, then it'd been a lost, of course!

[Bluemystic]

I played Red Barons scenario (Cold War Ext. Project) where DDR is allied with Soviets. After conquering Europe (apart of greece) i changed doctrines in to Fleet In Being (which put me way behind in techs) and managed to build pretty decent Navy of Carriers (VI) and Battleships (VII) plus Some CA,BC and huge amount od DD's for screening purposes. I destroyed RN near shores of India but USN won one particular battle and they took out 7 CV's of mine. For me that was huge loss. Strangely i had like 3 fleets (2 CTF's with 8 CV's each and 1 Battleship Group with 8 SBB's including 12 screens for each fleet) and won 3 battles but i inflicted no casualties in USN instead i lost lots of CV's. I know about ovestacking penalty and US has better doctrine for CV's. But inflicting no casualties with 60 ships.....Now i raised amount of CV's in each fleet to 12 plus 3 CVL's + 15 screens with AA. USN is still strong but they do not dare to cross atlantic. I can't approach the coast because of their air fleet of TAC's and Naval Patrols. I will wait until they make the mistake. (CV VII in queye)

[Dead William]

I lost not a single transport and England is so much trampled smoking ash beneath my hob-nailed boots. I normally never fight big battles like this, the cowardly Brits flee with their tails between their legs at the earliest instance.

I should not that I had abandoned Sealane interdiction and moved to Base strike, so I might have been ahead in doctrines.

[TRP]

Considering that you're playing as a new naval power in an early pahse of the war, I'd count this as a good victory on your behalf. Not a great one, but definately good. What matters most, however, is whether or not you managed to invade England with your naval superiority.

[great_chairman]

definite victory. best one i've pulled off, though, was two 30-uboat high stacks and a 15-high stack, 30s led by doenitz and raeder and 15 led by bohm. bohm had his entire fleet sunk from under him, raeder likewise, and doenitz limped back with four half-strength uboats. the trade? home fleet

the lesson here is as long as you can stop the royal navy from interefering in sealion, any trade of your combat ships is worth it, because once you get around 9 divisions on the islands against the ai, it's gg.

[dertechie]

You pulled off Sealion and destroyed a large chunk of the RN's ability to project power. You lost a Carrier and some soak-off ships, they lost the Home Fleet. CAs/CVLs in a CTF are capital screens against enemy fleet carriers, expect them to take damage.

I'd call that a win, especially with your other ships ready to come off the slipways and join the fleet.

[Sharkfreak06]

You'd be out of your mind to call this a Pyrrhic victory. You pretty much traded one CV for Britain. The only other real obstacle in your way is the USN. I usually spend about a year ('44) sinking the USN in the Atlantic before invading the US... so as long as you have ~12-18 carriers and ~10-15 BBs by then you'll be totally ready.

[Tanesis]

I agree. Sometimes when you're in a real "ball buster" battle, things happen.

Those be the best battles, when it could go either way. The victory is sweeter for its having been so close.

As for the OP then this is a decent victory. The loss of a CV is a bit of a bugger but you hammered the RN (all those BB's gone. A sad day for the empire )

Tanesis,

[donzz]

In my current Germany game I gave up some naval doctrine techs and went along the "Base Strike" line of doctrines (the one that Japan and the USA use). It takes a long time to research them all since my tech teams aren't made for it, but I'm playing a long game and by 1944 I'm the king of the seas. I have 90-100% positioning vs 50-75% for UK and US. I have one 30-ship carrier group that usually has 6 carriers in it and a bunch of screens (I have 9 carriers atm but usually some are in drydock for repairs and I'm constructing more). I also have a 30-ship SAG with about 8-9 battleships and some heavy cruisers to round out to 15 capital/15 screens. Again, I have to rotate the heavies frequently for repairs.

Anyway, both of these groups smash anything they come up against with the technologies I have. I'm all the way down the list of techs to Carrier Warfare, which leaves only two more doctrines to learn and they are years away still. I realize that eventually the US will catch up with my techs and I'll lose my advantage, but I hope by then to have a significant numerical advantage .

This wouldn't work for every Germany game (for one thing you need a very large economy to build all the ships) but I'm finding it quite rewarding in this one.