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Thread: Development Diary #27 - 6th of May 2009

  1. #161
    Second Lieutenant Rush's Avatar
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    This AI feature is good to role play certain aspects of the war

  2. #162
    Procrastinator extraordinaire Registered's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unddu View Post
    If the AI is worse than you are, then there is no reason for any serious gamer to let the AI handle things.
    You could have it take care of an easy theatre ,mopping up last resistance for example, while you take care of the big fish.
    Not all players want to micro manage every theatre all the time.
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  3. #163
    Philosopher of the Future Alexander Seil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unddu View Post
    Im not convinced this is a good idea.
    There are three possible options:

    - The AI is worse than you are.
    - The AI is better than you are.
    - The AI is just as good as you are.

    If the AI is worse than you are, then there is no reason for any serious gamer to let the AI handle things.
    Of course, for some of us, Hearts of Iron is not a competition to see who can paint the world gray by 1943...
    Last edited by Alexander Seil; 06-05-2009 at 21:34.

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by unddu View Post
    Im not convinced this is a good idea.
    There are three possible options:

    - The AI is worse than you are.
    - The AI is better than you are.
    - The AI is just as good as you are.

    If the AI is worse than you are, then there is no reason for any serious gamer to let the AI handle things.

    If the AI is better than you are, then things become even more silly, since you can just let the AI run the game for you.

    Only if the AI is just as good as you are does it make sense to let it handle certain aspects of the war. And really now, only option 1 is likely to be the case.



    It's just silly to let a big part of the player's action be taken over by the AI. Let's play chess, but let the AI move the queen and towers. Let's play CIV but have the AI handle ships and planes. In HoI2 and Eu3 you the human can easily handle a 4 or 5 front war, so has the game now become so obtuse you need the AI to help you out?
    Its fun not real world. If you dont like it then dont use it. I myself would like to have few games with hands-off. Its good for semi realism. If you like to controll every division (like I do) then its your choice.
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  5. #165
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    In my opinion the real issue is how the AI tries to reach its objective. Especially when the objective is a major urban center, the decision to surround the city or take it on the run can be crucial. Additionally, if I give an army group an objective and make it blitzkrieg, will it form one spearhead or multiple? Also, would it try a pincer movement to encircle the enemy? Those are the questions that haven't been answered and are going to be the key in how effective AI control will be.

  6. #166
    Philosopher of the Future Alexander Seil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sangeli View Post
    Those are the questions that haven't been answered and are going to be the key in how effective AI control will be.
    As Johan said, the AI is the same for the player and the other countries on that level, so the question is, how effective is AI in general? The problem is not specific to player's forces.

    On this note, by the way, I'd like to say to the general public - "Haha, told you so!"

    Johan's outline of the "multilevel" AI (which is the same for the player as it is for the computer opponent at the "lower" levels) is basically what I predicted many months ago, which was received with some skepticism

  7. #167
    Star Swirl the Bearded Baneslave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unddu View Post
    If the AI is worse than you are, then there is no reason for any serious gamer to let the AI handle things.
    Many players chose to leave the IC sliders automated even if it was unoptimal decision. There are many people who aren't interested in optimising their gaming for "serious gamer" level.

  8. #168
    Philosopher of the Future Alexander Seil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baneslave View Post
    Many players chose to leave the IC sliders automated even if it was unoptimal decision. There are many people who aren't interested in optimising their gaming for "serious gamer" level.
    Also, not everyone scraps the Red Army on January 1st, 1936, builds IJN into a cruizerg force, or declares war on Tibet to get rid of the peacetime IC modifier...

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Seil View Post
    Also, not everyone scraps the Red Army on January 1st, 1936, builds IJN into a cruizerg force, or declares war on Tibet to get rid of the peacetime IC modifier...
    These are more of exploits than evaded micromanagement, but point still stands.

  10. #170
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    Although I usually have to manage everything, I can think of situations where it could be useful. The last time I played HoI2 seriously, frx, my lads were advancing virtually at will (but for some annoying holdouts) into Central Africa. I didn't want to think about that however because Barbarossa was about to start. It would have been nice to have been able to delegate, especially since I didn't *really* care about that theatre.

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  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by unddu View Post
    Im not convinced this is a good idea.
    There are three possible options:

    - The AI is worse than you are.
    - The AI is better than you are.
    - The AI is just as good as you are.

    Actually, that is not at all the case. The AI is much, much better at multitasking, assessing chance, assaying needs and observing for changes quickly. The AI is much, much worse at evaluating long-term potentialities (Player knows from past experiences what is coming and how things will change; aka hindsight).

    The AI can be relied on to behave like an AI. The difference this time is that the structure is more segmented, which will allow it to organize better than past games. As well, with this new system available to beta, the over-all quality of the AI will improve. Patches will probably tweak the AI further.

    In terms of what the Theatre AI will or will not handle, remember that it is the same AI that has to handle all the nations that the player/players are not controlling. I can't see any reason why the player-controlled countries' AI would not use as many assets as the AI controlling enemy countries.

    Playing as Germany in a solo game, I anticipate that I will be using Theatre Command AI to conquer Africa once I get those formations organized, and defend conquered Britain and France. At the Army Group level, I will have the AI mop up the Primpet Marshes, and probably secure the Southen half of Turkey and defend against Allied attacks from Syria and Iraq. I may use Army Group AI to finish off the Netherlands, and defend along the Maginot line during the Spring '40 invasion.

    I'm really looking forward to seeing how the AI will handle the North Atlantic after I've secured Britain. That will tell me how effective it really is. Though the campaign through the Belgian Congo will be a challenge.

  12. #172
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    This sounds really great. I wonder how far the AI can take this, imagining the US planning its massive oversea invasion of Europe. In the earlier HoI-games it always felt like oversea-attacks where more scripted events and less actual strategic decisions. Hope this will change with this new AI.

    If the AI could order support in form of air or naval bombardment, that would also be nice. And of course dedicated air generals that you can give the task to use its units for support requesting commanders or in general assault enemy positions, for naval patrol a big area, prepare an assault on a coast...yea this would all be very very nice, if the AI could take all the micromanagement from the person playing. I can see a lot of players coming to this game and trying it out. Back in HoI2 I tried Switzerland first, because I imagined that would be the least trouble. With HoI3 I can try Germany and turn the AI help all the way on and be on my way of trying all the things offered piece by piece.

  13. #173
    Philosopher of the Future Alexander Seil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baneslave View Post
    These are more of exploits than evaded micromanagement, but point still stands.
    I mean, your example was pretty tame The "serious gamer" doesn't just leave his sliders under AI control - the Cruizerg Fleet is an essential item in his toolbox and is widely considered a legitimate strategy.

  14. #174
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    This is so awesome that I'm almost completely speechless. I had no idea you would even dare to try something so ambitious as this AI. As it has been said here earlier, if you manage to get even half of this actually working, it will be a new benchmark for future gamemakers.

    If anything, this DD has finally convinced me that I need to buy HoI3 immediately on release, not a year later as I normally buy my games... (I have made one exception to that rule: Empire Total War. That was a bad decision.)
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  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by King View Post
    It's Czech defence line.
    Thank you. And best wishes with this marvelous game.

    (it is truly epic)

  16. #176
    Philosopher of the Future Alexander Seil's Avatar
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    Actually doing the AI this way should make it much easier to tweak, as Johan hinted. The old "front" system was bulky and too static to function properly in a fluid conflict. It's a lot easier if you can teach the AI to do simple things first, and complex things later, instead of trying to teach it both simultaneously.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by dsteve3 View Post
    Actually, that is not at all the case. The AI is much, much better at multitasking, assessing chance, assaying needs and observing for changes quickly. The AI is much, much worse at evaluating long-term potentialities (Player knows from past experiences what is coming and how things will change; aka hindsight).

    The AI can be relied on to behave like an AI. The difference this time is that the structure is more segmented, which will allow it to organize better than past games. As well, with this new system available to beta, the over-all quality of the AI will improve. Patches will probably tweak the AI further.

    In terms of what the Theatre AI will or will not handle, remember that it is the same AI that has to handle all the nations that the player/players are not controlling. I can't see any reason why the player-controlled countries' AI would not use as many assets as the AI controlling enemy countries.

    Playing as Germany in a solo game, I anticipate that I will be using Theatre Command AI to conquer Africa once I get those formations organized, and defend conquered Britain and France. At the Army Group level, I will have the AI mop up the Primpet Marshes, and probably secure the Southen half of Turkey and defend against Allied attacks from Syria and Iraq. I may use Army Group AI to finish off the Netherlands, and defend along the Maginot line during the Spring '40 invasion.

    I'm really looking forward to seeing how the AI will handle the North Atlantic after I've secured Britain. That will tell me how effective it really is. Though the campaign through the Belgian Congo will be a challenge.
    Oh its going to be so fun rping with this :P

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  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Registered View Post
    You could have it take care of an easy theatre ,mopping up last resistance for example, while you take care of the big fish.
    Not all players want to micro manage every theatre all the time.
    Hmmm.... things I would love to use the AI on

    As germany:
    Africa
    West Front post fall of france
    Scandinavia post conquest

    As UK
    Africa
    Asia/Indian land forces

    As US
    Whichever theater I'm *not* concentrating on

    As Japan
    Post-conquest China
    'Russian invasion'
    SE Asia post conquest
    Island defense


    Hmm...this post is more about the fronts that I hate rather than the AI I guess

    -Doc

  19. #179
    Newbie Demi Moderator Gaute65's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by unddu View Post
    Im not convinced this is a good idea.
    There are three possible options:

    - The AI is worse than you are.
    - The AI is better than you are.
    - The AI is just as good as you are.


    Have you tried to play HOI2 or EU3 the same way the AI plays it?

    No pause, no hindsight, no bending the rules?

    For me , let AI control all fronts, it will make the game harder and more fun to play.

    Hopefully Paradox will add if options. like you can give orders to army central to attack province Y if army north controls province X
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  20. #180
    OoC, will I be able to retain control of production regardless? As I'd love for them to give them orders but I'll prepare their forces for them, if you don't mind.

    Also, will it show you their plans?
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