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Thread: Late to the Dance - a Prussian AAR

  1. #21
    sounds interesting - There are so much more money in later start. And subsequent armies.

    BTW the pic showing your generals has the wrong URL. It's showing your units as well...
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  2. #22

  3. #23
    Human Enewald's Avatar
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    The corridor, forever it German shall be!
    In good times and bad times!

  4. #24
    The Goldmattress Mattabesta's Avatar
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    Let this be an inspiration:

    I mam just sparing the world I have as musch income as the nexst 5 below me and litterally evry single province in germany has a maufactorie. I cruched france in two wars, both in 1 year and austria was beaten in a ton of wars, mostly becuse they inherited blob hungarty wich had inherited lithunia wich had inherited poland wich had inherited novgrod, no lies just hasburgs populating like rabbits you can see the remnants. RUSSIA is not unly unified but rich as fuck 2nd in income and has mufctories all over the place and level 4 forts in evry province.
    EDIT sorry for pic size
    Last edited by Mattabesta; 04-05-2009 at 22:23.

  5. #25
    Warden of the Cinque Ports Teep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by naggy
    Teep: He'll be the great by the time I'm done! (we hope). But you are correct - too many Friedrichs
    2 things, you obviously havn't seen how many louis' France had. Also, I think Prussia had 1 elector Frederick William and I think 3 each of Fredericks and Frederick Williams when they were kings of and in Prussia.

    Fixed.
    Last edited by Teep; 05-05-2009 at 09:31.

  6. #26
    The Goldmattress Mattabesta's Avatar
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    why dose the quote say: posted by mattabesta

  7. #27
    Captain Tjena Med Laxen's Avatar
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    A future of blood and iron =)
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  8. #28
    Field Marshal naggy's Avatar
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    Chapter 2: The Stability Rollercoaster

    1st order of business: Build an army. 2k cav and 4k inf aren't going to scare anyone in this corner of the world.

    In 1399, you build cavalry and don't stop.

    In 1688, I'm building infantry and artillery - I want a 1:1 ratio. All of Europe will hear it coming. Start with 2 more infantry, then 6 artillery. This will take a while. In the meantime, it's time to recover stability. Inflation is no problem, given my 0.50% inflation reduction.

    May 12: Sweden offers an alliance. This should keep Russia off my back.


    June 15: Holstein asks for a Royal Marriage. We accept - Poland is target #1 so we can get strong enough to take on Austria.


    June 17: Daughters are sent all over Europe, resulting in RMs with Anhalt, Bavaria, Saxony, and the Palatinate. The important part is wooing electors and maybe hitting the inheritance jackpot. I also want lots of military access throughout Germany.

    June 25: Denmark offers an alliance. A Northern Alliance is shaping up.


    August 11: Portugal embargos us. Er...wha?


    Bavaria offers an alliance. We accept. Pre-IN, this would lead to diplo-vassalization. Post-IN, 5 province Bavaria is immune.


    September 1: Stab rises to -2. Ethiopia tries to set a record for fastest collapse - 4 months!

    September 23: The PrawnStar-less Iroquois are annexed by France. Note to self: Do not try playing the Iroquois in 1688.

    December 1: Stab rises to -1. If you have to take stab hits, take them earlier rather than later - your stab rises MUCH faster.

    January 1, 1689: Production tech 33. Seeing as there's nothing but +1 PE gains from here on out, don't expect much more of this except from neighbor bonuses, until I start hitting the ahead of time penalties.

    March 1: We hit stab 0, without revolts!

    May 21: Portugal allows trade again. On the trading front, we get crap merchants (especially with - stab), but our 2 merchants are in Manhattan, the richest CoT in the world. Hopefully they didn't get any Bear Stearns stock.

    June 1: Stab 1 and Naval 33 (Heavy Frigate). To celebrate positive stability, King Friedrich embraces the Scientific Revolution, to the detriment of Regimental Camps.


    June 9: General E. von Hessen-Homberg dies. He was a great general, or so we've been told.

    July 1: Land, Trade, and Government 33. We get the Coehorn Mortar (slightly better stats) and another idea! The Coehorn Mortar has 1 dot more fire, shock and morale off/def, so it's a good upgrade.


    For our idea, I pick Patron of the Arts. Soon, I'll get an artist, and we'll try and jump a few steps innovative.


    September 1: Stab increases back to -2.

    December 1: Stab increases to -1.

    January 1, 1590: A quick recap:
    Armies: 6k Inf/3 Art and a 2 cav army
    Merchants: 3 in Manhattan, 1 in Stockholm
    Prestige: 5 (need 20 for Prussia)
    Gains: None yet.
    Ideas switched: 3
    Stab hits: 10 (8 regained)

    Were I HRE, I could get back 1 stab/month, but I'm not, and won't be soon. The three Theocracies are going to vote for Spain, and I haven't convinced the Palatinate, Bavaria, or Saxony to vote against themselves yet.

  9. #29
    Field Marshal naggy's Avatar
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    War and the Tech Tree

    I will take a moment and explain why I'm building Artillery.

    From Land Tech 33 to Land Tech 38:
    Infantry increases Fire/Shock modifiers from 1.1/1.1 to 1.25/1.3
    Cavalry increases Fire/Shock modifiers from .05/4 to .05/4.2
    Artillery increases Fire/Shock modifiers from 2/.3 to 4/.45

    That's right: Artillery doubles its effectiveness in the next 35 years (1690 for 33, 1725 for 39).

    Artillery also lends half its defense to the unit in front of it.

    My Gustavian Infantry (5/4 fire, 4/3 shock 7/5 morale) improve to 5/6 fire, 4/4.5 shock, and 7/7.5 morale).

    At Land Tech 34, when I can upgrade to Caroline Infantry (6/4, 5/4, 8/6), that improves to 6/6, 5/5.5, 8/8.5, with my artillery also doing similar amounts of damage from the back ranks.

    On the flip side, I get no new artillery until Land 47. Owie.

  10. #30
    Field Marshal naggy's Avatar
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    Enewald: Poland will have something to say about that.

    Azugal: Glad to have you!

    Kami: Actually, there really isn't. I think you get 5 ducats or 6 months of income, whichever is larger. I started with 90 something ducats, and only 6k men. Your army and navy size is based as a %age of unmodified force limits, I think.

    Mattabesta: When did you start?

    Teep: They have people other than Louis?

    Tjena Med Laxen: Da!

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by naggy View Post
    I will take a moment and explain why I'm building Artillery.

    From Land Tech 33 to Land Tech 38:
    Infantry increases Fire/Shock modifiers from 1.1/1.1 to 1.25/1.3
    Cavalry increases Fire/Shock modifiers from .05/4 to .05/4.2
    Artillery increases Fire/Shock modifiers from 2/.3 to 4/.45

    That's right: Artillery doubles its effectiveness in the next 35 years (1690 for 33, 1725 for 39).

    Artillery also lends half its defense to the unit in front of it.

    My Gustavian Infantry (5/4 fire, 4/3 shock 7/5 morale) improve to 5/6 fire, 4/4.5 shock, and 7/7.5 morale).

    At Land Tech 34, when I can upgrade to Caroline Infantry (6/4, 5/4, 8/6), that improves to 6/6, 5/5.5, 8/8.5, with my artillery also doing similar amounts of damage from the back ranks.

    On the flip side, I get no new artillery until Land 47. Owie.

    What about the cavalry of the Era? a 4x modifier is still huge. Is it Gallop (shock 3/3 ?) With the 4x shock you get a 12 shock unit. Compared to the Gustavian 4/3, which only gives 4,4/3,3 .
    The inf is cheaper, but isn't MP a higher a concern? And when trying to destroy armies the first 5 days of shock is everything! Secondly does the added defensive value from artillery offset the defensive bonus, you get by having more mobile armies?
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  12. #32
    Field Marshal naggy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kami View Post
    What about the cavalry of the Era? a 4x modifier is still huge. Is it Gallop (shock 3/3 ?) With the 4x shock you get a 12 shock unit. Compared to the Gustavian 4/3, which only gives 4,4/3,3 .
    The inf is cheaper, but isn't MP a higher a concern? And when trying to destroy armies the first 5 days of shock is everything! Secondly does the added defensive value from artillery offset the defensive bonus, you get by having more mobile armies?
    Gallop vs Gustavian + Coehorn loses 1.5 shock before the roll is made, much more if the infantry is defending in poor terrain. Thus, the cavalry requires a good roll to do anything major in shock, only to get torn to pieces in fire.

    Let's take 5 dice rolls for everyone with no terrain- 14 Gallop (0/0 4/2 4/2) cavalry (2 on each wing) vs 10 Gustavian + 10 Coehorn:

    Calculation method:
    Cavalry:
    (Cav off dots + roll - inf def dots) * cav tech modifier * # of units

    Inf/Art:
    (Inf off dots + roll - cav def dots) * inf tech modifier * # of units +
    (Art off dots + roll - cav def dots) * art tech modifier * 50% penalty for back row * # of units

    Shock:
    Gallop: 4 + 5 - 4.5 = 4.5 * 4 = 18 * 14 units = 252 damage/day
    Inf/Art: (4 + 5 - 2) * 1.1 * 10 units + (3 + 5 - 2) * .3 * .5 (half damage in back) * 10 units = 77 + 9 = 86 damage

    Daily damage (I'm reducing damage each day due to casualties)
    Gallop: 252 + 250 + 249 + 248 + 246 = 1245
    Inf/Art: 86 + 84 + 82 + 80 + 78 = 410

    Fire:
    Gallop - 0 + 5 - 6 = 0, no damage
    Inf/Art: (5 + 5 - 0) * 1.1 * 10 units + (5 + 5 - 0) * 2 * .5 * 10 units = 110 + 100 = 210 damage/day

    Total damage:
    Gallop: 0
    Inf/Art: 981

    In 10 days, the cavalry with 4 extra units on the wings takes 1391 casualties to my 1245, and loses morale much faster (4 offensive morale to 7.5 defensive, against 7 offensive morale to 2 defensive).

    Unless they can get to the next province and to a third province faster than my army, I can hit them again with low morale.

    Look at this again at tech 39, using Arme Blache Cavalry (3/5, 5/4, 5/3) vs Caroline Infantry (6/6, 5/5.5, 8/8.5).

    Shock:

    Cav: 5 + 5 - 5.5 = 4.5 * 4.2 = 18.9 * 14 units = 264.6 damage/day
    Inf/Art: (5 + 5 - 4) * 1.25 * 10 units + (3 + 5 - 4) * .45 * .5 (half damage in back) * 10 units = 90 + 18 = 118 damage

    Daily damage (I'm reducing damage each day due to casualties)
    Gallop: 265 + 260 + 255 + 250 + 245 = 1275
    Inf/Art: 108 + 107 + 106 + 105 + 104 = 530

    Fire:
    Gallop - 3 + 5 - 6 = 2 * .05 * 14 = 1.4 damage
    Inf/Art: (6 + 5 - 5) * 1.3 * 10 units + (5 + 5 - 5) * 4 * .5 * 10 units = 78 + 100 = 178 damage/day

    Total damage:
    Gallop: 5
    Inf/Art: 890

    Again, inf/art wins (1280 casualties for inf, 1420 for cavalry). Morale is still going to result in the death of cavalry, and the results get worse for dragoons and hussars. God help the Austrians with their Latin Knights

  13. #33
    Ahhh - You are a battle genius!

    So mixed armies are best for winning battles - In this case you had a art regiment for each inf.. This is equal to more troops and less shuffling of fresh cav for the second round ( I admit - They don't do a lot of fire dmg.)

    1. But Cavalry can still lose battles. 5 days of shock -> retreat -> regain morale -> defensive bonus + 5 days of shock

    etc. etc etc.

    2. It's very difficult to complete a overrun, if you don't do a whole lot of shock damage in the first 5 days. (IMO a flaw in the battle system).


    Edit: And i probably will start using more art, and then have seperate all cav. kill stacks. I thank you for the detailed explanation
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  14. #34
    Field Marshal naggy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kami View Post
    So mixed armies are best for winning battles.
    Depends on what tech level you're at.

    In the early game, inf and art modifiers are so low, cavalry can trounce them both.

    Later, when inf and art get more pips and better modifiers, cavalry dies horribly. You first see it at Land Tech 18-22 until you get Latin Caracolle, and then right before you get Gallop, and then again at LT 33 or so when the artillery modifier increases and the Coehorn Mortar is available.

    Also, keep in mind that I'll soon have the Prussian discipline decision - add 36% damage (+25 from decision, +6 Quality, +5 Absolute Monarchy) on my end and unleash the pain.

    Even your cav idea of retreating after 5 days isn't so hot, since in Europe, provinces are small enough that they can follow and still catch you before you regain morale - and cav loses morale quickly compared to an inf/art stack. All they have to do is keep you retreating so you can't reinforce, and you may still be toast.

  15. #35
    American Tyrant Beamed's Avatar
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    I patiently await the next update, being a huge fan of Prussia and mid to late game starts.

    Oh, didn't I post here already? Eh. Not much to add, just noting that artillery is indispensable with infantry. Combine it with a high discipline and your casualties will be incredibly low - attrition, however, will remain.
    "We give the facts. You can't say that we have a slant because of it. I hear that the jury's in on evolution."

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  16. #36
    I was of course thinking about LT 33-39, as you examplified.

    The provinces are small, but Art is slooow. It is possible to time an attack with cav. Time in + 5 days + time out before the first. And if you can get the enemy into your own turf they will gain attrition as well depleting the battle strength of each regiment further.


    Morale is, as you point out, the critical point. But in my (unscientific) experience it's possible to do the 5 day dance enough times or get away with an all cav army.


    My final argument of, why cav is better at hunting down armies, is cav's ability to flank. It's possible to inflict more damage and subsequently an overrun.
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  17. #37
    Field Marshal naggy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kami View Post
    The provinces are small, but Art is slooow.
    Maneuver generals are your friend, but you're right.

    Morale is, as you point out, the critical point. But in my (unscientific) experience it's possible to do the 5 day dance enough times or get away with an all cav army.
    Ah. I've had mixed experience.

    My final argument of, why cav is better at hunting down armies, is cav's ability to flank. It's possible to inflict more damage and subsequently an overrun.
    This is true. One fun tactic is to use inf/art to beat the army down, then let an all-cav stack run them down and kill them while the inf/art assaults.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by naggy View Post
    Maneuver generals are your friend, but you're right.



    Ah. I've had mixed experience.



    This is true. One fun tactic is to use inf/art to beat the army down, then let an all-cav stack run them down and kill them while the inf/art assaults.
    Yes they are.

    I see.

    Excellent strategy . But it may not be necessary with the prussian discipline


    EDIT: And i like your detailed start. Keep it up.
    Last edited by Kami; 08-05-2009 at 11:55.
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    Read it or you will pay in blood

  19. #39
    Warden of the Cinque Ports Teep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by naggy
    Teep: They have people other than Louis?
    Yes, they had a few Phillip(e)s, Johns and Henris.

  20. #40
    Field Marshal naggy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teep View Post
    Yes, they had a few Phillip(e)s, Johns and Henris.
    Louii's in disguise, I say.

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