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Development Diary #22 - 1st of April 2009

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mandead said:
Whoaa....

You're talking about a diplomatic defeat, what Germany was left with after they'd already made peace. Very different thing.

It was a very different story on the ground before the armistice. Their army was very short of food & supplies, but was still largely intact in places, and the High Seas Fleet was still a match for the Royal Navy, until German sailors scuttled it. ;)

The military situation in 1918 was very different to that in 1945.

But this is for the History forum, so...
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This is complete crap do not post nazi stab in the back propoganda on this forum, thank you.
 
But in theory in some mod they could have scripted surrender events for every nation, giving the player the other ones territory?

And lets take the situation of Yugoslavia in 1941, would the pro-german government go to exile to London in case Germans conquer them? :confused:
 
King said:
Left with 100,00 man army, no tanks, no air force, virtually no navy, and a cripilling reperations bill. This was a pretty total defeat, as the French intended it to be, if the allies had just enforced that treaty there would of been no World War II.
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Just my thoughts/playing devils advocate/want to know how the system would work in a WW1 setting (for mods):

I thought WW1 even ended without even 1 allied soldier stepping foot onto German soil on the offensive, and the Kaiser's armies withdrew fairly intact (or so I thought), so while national unity may have been 1%, not 1 "IC" was captured, and Germany wouldn't have broken/capitulated according to the new system, or would the "German Revolution" occupied provs count to this

Also, I thought many historians believe that had Versailles not been harsh in the first place (remember Hitler rose to power on the wave of resentment from the perceived 'injustices' of Versailles), there may not have been no WW2 either.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I like learning new things

Edit: I withdrew 1 comment/observation, and added an alternative
 
Quick question about laws,

I assume that new laws themselves could be modded in but are the "5 seperate levels", as Johan put it, harcoded/required , or could you have laws that only have 3 levels or up to 9 (for example)?
 
Kikaider said:
I thought WW1 even ended without even 1 allied soldier stepping foot onto German soil on the offensive, and the Kaiser's armies withdrew fairly intact (or so I thought), so while national unity may have been 1%, not 1 "IC" was captured, and Germany wouldn't have broken/capitulated according to the new system, or would the "German Revolution" occupied provs count to this

Also, I thought many historians believe that had Versailles not been harsh in the first place (remember Hitler rose to power on the wave of resentment from the perceived 'injustices' of Versailles), there may not have been no WW2 either.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I like learning new things

Edit: I withdrew 1 comment/observation, and added an alternative
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you are right about the situation in ww1, in opposite to ww2. even more, the german army was still on allied and russian soil.
while in ww1 the national unity broke apart, in ww2 i really cant see how to describe any kind of unity, or how this term could be applied to that situation.
 
Kikaider said:
Quick question about laws,

I assume that new laws themselves could be modded in but are the "5 seperate levels", as Johan put it, harcoded/required , or could you have laws that only have 3 levels or up to 9 (for example)?
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I get this as a modder's request. Worst case scenario is, when you make the effects and conditions of 3 levels the same, then you'll have 3 level laws (1-2-3, 4, 5). In a similar fashion, you can make laws that depend on the levels of another law. This way you can have max_possible_number_of_laws^5 level.

Though, if I know P'dox and their moddability policies, these won't be needed. :)
 
If unity is low enough it should be possible to blow them without entering their borders. Startegic warfare, collapse of industry (due to lack of resources) etc. German army wasnt exactly 100k at the end of the war. Many provinces were still occupied (especially in the east) so Wehrmacht was transformed into Freikorps (volunteer army) to cover that area. But thats a completely different story.
 
With this system are there going to events to prevent china from collapsing so fast? unless you can take out all the warlords and have events that drive up your unity it would seem that Japan will steamroller just as fast through china. Love to be proven wrong though.

edit. I do love were this is going though gameplay wise.
 
praxiteles said:
I get this as a modder's request. Worst case scenario is, when you make the effects and conditions of 3 levels the same, then you'll have 3 level laws (1-2-3, 4, 5). In a similar fashion, you can make laws that depend on the levels of another law. This way you can have max_possible_number_of_laws^5 level.

Though, if I know P'dox and their moddability policies, these won't be needed. :)
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Ah, but the way I understood it is that you need to step from one side to another (almost like a slider, e.g. belgian 'steps' to full mobilization), unless I misunderstood something). By setting 1,2,3 doing it that way, wouldn't that induce that its harder to leave one extreme to go 'up' to 5 vs. 'down' to 1-3

which could be a desired effect I admit, but not necessarily the best way to work it. Hence my question :D
 
Wow, that discussion is getting somewhat heated on all sides and I see devs responding more to history than game mechanics :confused:

A DD on events would be nice. There's no way all of the SU would surrender at once, would they? I imagine the soviets not yet occupied would try to reorganize themselves as a new country. Or does the old bitter peace event take care of it?
 
Johan said:
1. Note there are no surrender negotiations in Hearts of Iron 3, World War II is total warfare and is fought to the finish. We have special events for specific surrenders, like the forming of Vichy France, but in general if a country’s national unity breaks then all provinces that have been captured or are linked to the capital are occupied and remainder fights on with the government in exile.

2. ...Strategic warfare, we already mentioned that strategic warfare can be used to lower national unity. It is now perfectly feasible to bomb Rotterdam and induce the Dutch to surrender.
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These arguments seems in contradiction.

A Nation will surrender or will fight till the end?
 
Quorthon said:
These arguments seems in contradiction.

A Nation will surrender or will fight till the end?
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I think the hidden point that Johan was making is that surrender is not a negotiation or an option. A country fights on until it can't anymore (national unity) and then automatically surrenders. When it hits the wall, it doesn't negotiate, it doesn't ask the attacker, it doesn't take requests from the attacker. The defeated country just automatically surrenders.

... and then the entire discussion on governments in exile take over.
 
Devout said:
I think the hidden point that Johan was making is that surrender is not a negotiation or an option. A country fights on until it can't anymore (national unity) and then automatically surrenders. When it hits the wall, it doesn't negotiate, it doesn't ask the attacker, it doesn't take requests from the attacker. The defeated country just automatically surrenders.

... and then the entire discussion on governments in exile take over.
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How about Belgium King that simply surrendered his country and his army to Germans and closed himself in his castle until the end of war?
 
liebgot said:
How about Belgium King that simply surrendered his country and his army to Germans and closed himself in his castle until the end of war?
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I agree. I think that it would be better for Paradox and its customers if this topic will be reworked. Please Johan, King, etc. I know that is not so nice to see your work criticized but sometimes you can make a mistake and this forum can help you to understand it.

At the end of the day you can still say that you are right 99% of times :rolleyes:
 
liebgot said:
How about Belgium King that simply surrendered his country and his army to Germans and closed himself in his castle until the end of war?
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Makes no difference, there was still a goverment in exile in England.
The king was considered 'in no position to rule the belgians'.

This is one thing that would be accuratly portrayed in HoI3. The germans defeat the belgian army in europe, national unity collapses, a goverment in exile is formed. The goverment in exile keeps control of Congo. Germany occupies belgium.
 
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