Development Diary #22 - 1st of April 2009

[Carlstadt Boy]

This no-peace-agreement thing is definitely the worst news in HOI3 development so far. With only one catastrofic decision Paradox has destroyed its reputation in my eyes. And not because it is a bad thing for the game, but because Paradox treats us like idiots with this. Freedom has been the best thing in HOI2 for me, in fact I played only one historical campaign so far (and even that ended ahistoricaly). The beaty in HOI was that I was able to play as Netherland in war for colonies, or resurgent British Empire fighting with the US. And the goal there was taking Ceylon, Malaya, Hawaii or Panama in peace agreement. You have now completely taken that freedom from us. In HOI2 we could use acceptall if we wanted some ahistorical peace with one of the major alliances, and that peace doesn`t have to be an exploit, but something that considered plausible. Paradox, thank you for thinking that we are cheating idiots.

[Sargnagel]

Someone should edit the DD perhaps to prevent posts like that.

[danielshannon]

I'm assuming when you say 'sow enough discord' that you'll be doing it without actually landing troops in America. If that is the case it'll simply be impossible. That's like Soviet Union collapsing and anti-Communist government taking control after 4 months into Barbarossa.

I'm probably beating a dead horse here, but I don't see how its impossible. We know that strategic warfare can reduce national unity and I was under the impression that a low national unity may result in coups (maybe thats just Party organization?). If germany got ICBMs and started strat bombing American cities and beat off a few Normandy style landings, then I think they should be able to reduce American national unity. They could couple this with having their spies work to increase the organization of pro axis parties, couldn't they? I'm not talking real life, just purely in game terms wouldn't this be possible? Shouldn't this allow for a seperate peace?

[gunnergoz]

I'm probably beating a dead horse here, but I don't see how its impossible. We know that strategic warfare can reduce national unity and I was under the impression that a low national unity may result in coups (maybe thats just Party organization?). If germany got ICBMs and started strat bombing American cities and beat off a few Normandy style landings, then I think they should be able to reduce American national unity. They could couple this with having their spies work to increase the organization of pro axis parties, couldn't they? I'm not talking real life, just purely in game terms wouldn't this be possible? Shouldn't this allow for a seperate peace?

If the whole peace negotiation mechanism is supposed to be there to permit and support highly fantastical game scenarios such as the one above, then I have absolutely no problem with its absence from the game. I think PI is doing what it can to make the wargame more realistic, be it possibly at the expense of all possible what-if, far-out scenarios.

[Cidal]

I'm probably beating a dead horse here, but I don't see how its impossible. We know that strategic warfare can reduce national unity and I was under the impression that a low national unity may result in coups (maybe thats just Party organization?). If germany got ICBMs and started strat bombing American cities and beat off a few Normandy style landings, then I think they should be able to reduce American national unity. They could couple this with having their spies work to increase the organization of pro axis parties, couldn't they? I'm not talking real life, just purely in game terms wouldn't this be possible? Shouldn't this allow for a seperate peace?

I'm sure if you drop about 100 nukes on America dissent level will be soaring and America will just turn into a massive anarchy, but this is assuming that America won't do the same to Germany which is extremely unlikely.

[gianlucad]

Worth waiting...

[FNK_Drake]

If the whole peace negotiation mechanism is supposed to be there to permit and support highly fantastical game scenarios such as the one above, then I have absolutely no problem with its absence from the game. I think PI is doing what it can to make the wargame more realistic, be it possibly at the expense of all possible what-if, far-out scenarios.

But if the AI never accepts these ahistorical peace deals with a few provinces, how does it detract from the game?

the AI in HOI2 would never sign small peace deals, but if the player wants to do things differently, what possible good reason is there to restrict that?

Making peace by special events only is a big mistake. It forces the player to play a historical game, and lets face it, that gets boring.

Its all been done before, I thought that HOI3 would be a game of choices, but it seems I am wrong.

Its not JUST playing as minor nations that will be affected, now any attempts to go ahistorical as a major will be met in failure much like how the peace events in HOI2 made a mess of things in these situation.**

The new political system is wasted if the game is going to end in a unrealitic mess because nobody made peace events for a Communist france, or a Fascist america..

Really.. whats the point then?

**- Example: Playing as a belligerent but neutral Italy I managed to carve out an empire by invading Yugoslavia, Greece, and Vichy france. I allied Hungary, Austria, and Bulgaria, but once the Soviets steamrolled Germany, all those nations magically became Soviet puppets.

Why? Because of event based peace system. Nobody can Code an event for every possible situation, so the best solution to Peace deal in HOI3 is a dynamic one that does not rely on events or set circumstances.

At the very least keep the peace negotiation. its not like it will hurt the game, the major powers AI never accepts those peace deals anyways.

[Cidal]

**- Example: Playing as a belligerent but neutral Italy I managed to carve out an empire by invading Yugoslavia, Greece, and Vichy france. I allied Hungary, Austria, and Bulgaria, but once the Soviets steamrolled Germany, all those nations magically became Soviet puppets.

Why? Because of event based peace system. Nobody can Code an event for every possible situation, so the best solution to Peace deal in HOI3 is a dynamic one that does not rely on events or set circumstances.

At the very least keep the peace negotiation. its not like it will hurt the game, the major powers AI never accepts those peace deals anyways.

Why would Hungary, Bulgaria, etc. suddenly become Soviet puppets if they're your ally? I'm sure the one prerequisite would have to be the fact that they're at war with Soviet Union.

The peace system in HoI2 and even in EU3 was pretty much broken. In EU3 I have on countless occasions survived while on the verge of total destruction by offering 10 gold or even white peace to cease hostilities.

[Communazi]

I often invade poland then broker peace so I have a buffer with the SU so I can focus on invading France/UK/Spain. This is the sort of strategic element I'm worried about, perhaps having cores on another country should automatically have an event linked to it?

reclaiming the cores + lowering their national unity basically offers a peace deal where you get those cores and everything else is restored?

[mrwarre85]

I have never posted on this message board before, but am posting today to say that I will likely not purchase this game without some form of player driven peace engine.

WW II was not an ideological battle to the finish; it was a political war, the same as every other war in history. Politicians then trump up ideological differences to first motivate their citizens to fight and win the war, then to help historians write accounts that are favorable to them.

Case and point, US Standard Oil provided fuel for the German Air Force, and although Americans don't realize it they once invaded Canada and also committed what numerically is a far worse genocide on the Native Americans (no, I'm not European or Canadian, I'm an American who loves his country but also knows the score).

As far as the game goes, to echo what has already been said, this features absence takes away a lot of re playability. I would have never played HOI 2 had this feature been absent-- In fact, I have never once played a game as Britain, Germany, Japan, USSR, or the USA. Thus, I have needed this engine to end all of my games conflicts.

Best,

Mike

[gunnergoz]

You know, you might have a point if this were a political simulator, but it is a war game - first, last and foremost. My enemies can seek peace at the end of my gun barrel or from six feet under ground - its all the same to me.

[Hansag]

Nice aesthetic touch to the mobilization button.

And it cant be modded in? please...

So if Argentina invades the Falklands in 1943, then it's a fight to the death between the allies and Argentina?

WWI was a war that ended with total German defeat when their national unity cracked.

There should be a "casualties" counter in the Strategic Warfare indexes as well in that case. I mean, if your military just conquers country after country WITHOUT significant casualties, then it shouldn't matter that much, but if you (or the AI takes control of one of your fronts) and launches suicide missions, then casualties should mount and lower national unity.

[EnglandWarrior]

Nice aesthetic touch to the mobilization button.
So if Argentina invades the Falklands in 1943, then it's a fight to the death between the allies and Argentina?

I think the return to status quo event already mentioned by Paraox would take care of this.

[Tambourmajor]

This DD is nothing short of awesome. Keep up the good work, People of the Paradox!

[Hansag]

Yah, but what I mean is, its now impossible to stop fighting when you've changed the status quo, i.e. conquered the Falklands and then integrated the province into your own realm.

[Sirveri]

So if Argentina invades the Falklands in 1943, then it's a fight to the death between the allies and Argentina?

That's pretty much the way it was in HoI2. I never touched falklands because I don't want the wrath of the allies to pour down and crush poor little Argentina.

I think we'll be able to write up our own 'decisions', and I suspect we'll be able to use those decisions to fire peace. I also suspect that this is how they'll fire Vichy.

We could write our own peace events and simply set AI=0 so the AI never uses them for total war scenarios.

Or, since we can likely use nat unity as a trigger,
country = GB
AI = 10
nat unit NOT = 20
Province NOT controlled
South Hampton OR
Plymouth OR
London OR
etc...

fire event "England abandons Europe to Facism"

Basically in this case the idea is that Germany has won the battle of britain and has bombed the country to pieces and has caused severe havoc in the atlantic which thanks to their victory in the air has made air interdiction of their wolf packs impossible. Faced with a successfull German sea lion invasion, the now desperate British offer peace for a chance to remain independant and cast off mainland Europe.

While I would also like to have a seperate peace screen (you guys already have it from EU3), there are work arounds. They're just annoying and take work and will basically mean vanilla won't be used very often.

[Narakir]

No longer will the Anschluss event fire on the 1st of March 1938 there is now a certain amount of uncertainty. Not to say that all events have been shunted into the decision system, but the key ones have been.

This is a very good news, less date-waiting even if it sacrifices pure historical accuracy.

Do we'll still have the opportunity to make almost all we want with date fixed events or shall modders rely more on gameplay this time ?

Examples that comes in my mind are :
- A coup d'etat/Assasination attempt on date X, player chooses if he want it to be successful or not.

[JuergenGDB]

I have a question concerning technical breakthrus firing off after you capture nations, etc.. Will this still happen or has this been changed as well?

I used to not research certain things, becuase you would get them for free after conquering or annexing other nations. I had to write them all down, so I would not waste time researching them.

[Gabicho]

The new peace negotiations system doesnt look so good...And you should also think of ahistorical possibilities as well as mods,e.g. what if I play with Brazil and want to conquer only a province of Argentina?Annexation doesnt seem as the only realistic option here...

Indeed.
This "no peace agreement" thing will render most minors pretty much unplayable, since you simply won't be able to accomplish "small-scale" objectives, which is the only way you can play as a minor and "turtle" up to becoming a regional power.
Only the majors fought a "total war", and then again, it was more because of specific political, ideological, social, economic, strategic and military circumstances than because that's "THE WAY" to go in WWII.

Leaving most countries stuck in "total war" forever doesn't make any sense, at least to me, and will only lead to unrealistic and ahistorical gameplay. Like if country A goes to war with country B, and after 10 years of each having their single militia division sitting in their trenches without any fighting, and they don't any manpower, resources and supplies left, their government type has changed... and they can't sign a white peace?
And what if you play as, say, Colombia, go to war with Venezuela, destroy all of their army, navy, airforce, occupy all of their territory, they have 0 IC, 0 Manpower... and you can't ask them for a peace in which you ask for a single coastal province with a port???

[GLENN]

I have never posted on this message board before, but am posting today to say that I will likely not purchase this game without some form of player driven peace engine.

WW II was not an ideological battle to the finish; it was a political war, the same as every other war in history. Politicians then trump up ideological differences to first motivate their citizens to fight and win the war, then to help historians write accounts that are favorable to them.

Case and point, US Standard Oil provided fuel for the German Air Force, and although Americans don't realize it they once invaded Canada and also committed what numerically is a far worse genocide on the Native Americans (no, I'm not European or Canadian, I'm an American who loves his country but also knows the score).

As far as the game goes, to echo what has already been said, this features absence takes away a lot of re playability. I would have never played HOI 2 had this feature been absent-- In fact, I have never once played a game as Britain, Germany, Japan, USSR, or the USA. Thus, I have needed this engine to end all of my games conflicts.

Best,

Mike

This just goes to show you how the next generation looses touch with reality.


USSR and Germany killing people for lame reasons is only a differance of political opinion?

And the Japanese conduct on humanity is only a differance of political opinion?

You probabaly voted for Barack Obama too!

Next time you post, I'm going to bomb your house like Japan did to the USA. Surprise!

Then after you loose everything and cry, I'll just say its a difference of political opinion.

Come on over, I'll torture you until you accept my negotiated settlement. Mu ha ha......

Why do you think some things are banned from this game?

Under these conditions it is all out war.

If you can find a few people still alive from WW2 that experienced these things ask them about negotiated peace.