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Thread: Ships

  1. #41
    Corporal CW St J Nobbs Nobby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLand View Post
    Personally I'd prefer if it weren't 'light' and 'heavy' as well.

    Why not just go for 74-gun Ship of the Line and 46-gun Ship of the Line? Much more flavour that way.
    Kim has already said they've been changed (about seven posts up ):

    "Light and heavy were stupid names, they were left there for too long :-)

    EIC now has ship-of-the-line, 90 guns and ship-of-the-line 46 guns. So, according to the (british) rating system, they are 2nd rate and 4th rate."

  2. #42
    Second Lieutenant Digby_Chinless's Avatar

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    I do find it a shame that game developers always appeal to the masses. Please would you make some effort to keep the game mostly towards historical Trading Company fleets?

    I am unsure what timeframe the game is set in and that affects what ship types are available as the wooden warship was under constant development and improvement. While cargo vessels could carry up to 60 or 70 guns, as others have pointed out, the crew would be reduced to maximise cargo space - it's not just the space the men needed to live and sleep but storage for food and water, so while a merchantman may have had 50 guns, she could not man them all efficiently.

    If the game is set in the 1740s to 1750s frigates would be of around 28 guns and battleships of around 44 to 60. Set the game twenty years later and you'd have 30 to 32 gun frigates and battleships of 50 to 64 guns.

    These smaller warships sent overseas to foreign stations are rarely seen in computer games. Naturally every developer concentrates on 74s and 100s, just like every WW2 game seems to have a Tiger tank fetish. It would be so refreshing to buck the trend and dare to be different by using some of the smaller less common ship types. It would give the game more of its own individual feel.

  3. #43
    If they didn't include the 90 gun ships there would be alot of complaints. I think they have hit on a good solution. Making the 90 gun ships very hard to produce and maintain.

  4. #44
    Aye, having smaller and more uncommon ships in EIC would make it unique. But lets not forget about the big boys, I personally like battles with big warships instead of 10 gun sloops, I like to see all the guns fire in a huge broadside, and I like there to be more crew so in boarding combat it's not just a duel between the 2 captains. It gets boring when there's only a few guns firing at a time, imagine a battle between 2 ships that goes on and on for hours and all you hear is "pop....pop.......pop..pop...............pop". It would take so long because neither of them would be able to sink the other within a certain amount of time. Now if it was a battle between Ship of the Lines and big 48 gun frigates, there would be much more action, and more exciting, you'd hear "BOOOOMMMMMM...........BOOOMMMMMMMMMM" as the huge broadsides go off, and it shouldn't take too long to produce a winner. As for the ship classifications, I'd say the number of guns is not the only factor determining the class of that ship, it could be the ship size, armor, speed, manuverbility, cargo space and cost that also determines what class it is. And by the way, as I mentioned earlier, besides regular frigates, we should also have heavy frigates with more crew, guns, armor, and yes, bigger in size too. Again, take the USS Constitution as an example, it had 48 solid, heavy guns. Not sure about the crew number, but it had great speed and incredible armor, for it's called the "Old Ironsides" for a reason.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt.Jack Aubrey View Post
    Aye, having smaller and more uncommon ships in EIC would make it unique. But lets not forget about the big boys, I personally like battles with big warships instead of 10 gun sloops, I like to see all the guns fire in a huge broadside, and I like there to be more crew so in boarding combat it's not just a duel between the 2 captains. It gets boring when there's only a few guns firing at a time, imagine a battle between 2 ships that goes on and on for hours and all you hear is "pop....pop.......pop..pop...............pop". It would take so long because neither of them would be able to sink the other within a certain amount of time. Now if it was a battle between Ship of the Lines and big 48 gun frigates, there would be much more action, and more exciting, you'd hear "BOOOOMMMMMM...........BOOOMMMMMMMMMM" as the huge broadsides go off, and it shouldn't take too long to produce a winner. As for the ship classifications, I'd say the number of guns is not the only factor determining the class of that ship, it could be the ship size, armor, speed, manuverbility, cargo space and cost that also determines what class it is. And by the way, as I mentioned earlier, besides regular frigates, we should also have heavy frigates with more crew, guns, armor, and yes, bigger in size too. Again, take the USS Constitution as an example, it had 48 solid, heavy guns. Not sure about the crew number, but it had great speed and incredible armor, for it's called the "Old Ironsides" for a reason.

    Mmm... I have to disagee to some extend. Smaller ships give more tactical fun. Big ship battles is mostly about the one who has the most guns, best crew or even the best luck. Though on the other hand I like the sound of broadsides too. That would make frigate battles an excellent blend. The sound of a frigate broadside would still be spectacular, but the sailing and tactical skil of the player would very likely determine the victor.

    In games like AoS2 we mostly played with frigates. And games did not last for hours. An average of 30 minutes I think. Its the SoL's that tend to get boring. At the end and in the long run, its the cat and mouse play that makes the game dynamic.

    Besides. To keep some ties with history in a historical game, most battles were fought with smaller ships or big ships with less guns.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobby View Post
    Kim has already said they've been changed (about seven posts up ):

    "Light and heavy were stupid names, they were left there for too long :-)

    EIC now has ship-of-the-line, 90 guns and ship-of-the-line 46 guns. So, according to the (british) rating system, they are 2nd rate and 4th rate."
    Serves me right for not reading the thread.

    Anyway, I would be a bit irritated if the best age-of-sail naval simulation on the market didn't include Ships of the Line. But I'm glad the diversity of smaller warships is being properly represented.

    I look forward to buying the game! Will need to save it up as a treat for myself.

  7. #47
    Second Lieutenant Digby_Chinless's Avatar

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    Perhaps the very large warships will be incredibly expensive to buy/build and maintain? That would reduce their numbers significantly in the campaign game where I'd hope most fleets would be Indiamen and frigates and smaller.

    Of course in MP, and given a scenario editor, we could design battles of any size up to whatever the game engine and connections will support, so there won't be an issue with having online battles including battleships.

    I just have a special love of the odder earlier smaller battleships that were often found on colonial stations, the two-deck 44s, the 50s, 60s and 64s. Very interesting vessels.

    And as Arno says, most of the online fun is to be had in frigate actions. I recall SoL combat in AoS2 could be quite boring, pounding away for 30 minutes without effect...

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Verhoeven View Post
    Big ship battles is mostly about the one who has the most guns, best crew or even the best luck.
    Isn't that the same for smaller ships as well? Or all ships? It's all about who has the best of everything that determines the outcome of a battle. Only thing I see that's really important is how smart and tactical the captains are and how they use their ship and crew. But if the two enemies are using the same kind of ship, whatever manuvers you can do, your enemy can probly do that too. I like there to be as much gun firing as possible, so the status of the ships constantly changes. Instead of firing a few guns at a time and just circle one another, you might be losing your mast one minute, and your rudder the next, as quicker decisions would have to be made.
    Last edited by Cpt.Jack Aubrey; 06-05-2009 at 01:53.

  9. #49
    Second Lieutenant Digby_Chinless's Avatar

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    Don't forget which way the wind is blowing. I seem to recall that's kinda important too

  10. #50
    the swell as well ?? I remember hearing, (or maybe i was dreaming) that the lower decks of the SOL's were very close to the water line.

    So in large swells the lower decks of a SOL would be made near useless ?? which would probably make them just a bulkier less maneuverable Frigate in the conditions...

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt.Jack Aubrey View Post
    Isn't that the same for smaller ships as well? Or all ships? It's all about who has the best of everything that determines the outcome of a battle. Only thing I see that's really important is how smart and tactical the captains are and how they use their ship and crew. But if the two enemies are using the same kind of ship, whatever manuvers you can do, your enemy can probly do that too. I like there to be as much gun firing as possible, so the status of the ships constantly changes. Instead of firing a few guns at a time and just circle one another, you might be losing your mast one minute, and your rudder the next, as quicker decisions would have to be made.
    When its a very large ship vs a very large ship (2nd rate) the lesser tactical player can be compensated a lot by the firepower of his ship. With its range and punch it can fend off an attacker much easier, so there is less need for a cat and mouse game.The skilled player does not have much other options than to join the slugfest.

    With smaller ships there is much more dependence on the players skil. For instance you would be able to choose a tactical position much better as you will not be blasted out of the water before you get there. I am convinced a good frigate battle will be won by the player who manouvres best. Though I agree that a sloop will have a hard time against a frig. (Few exeptions, but you have to be a Thomas Cochrane, Speedy vs Xebec style).

    I ask myself. Who has a better chance? A sloop vs a medium frigate or a medium frigate against a medium ship of the line? I guess armament and crew rating would be very important.

  12. #52
    I don't think there were very many instances in the whole age of sail of a frigate engaging a ship of the line, let alone beating one.

    I recall reading that on occasion, ships of the line would not engage enemy frigates unless the frigates fired first, because it wouldn't be gentlemanly to pick such an uneven fight.

  13. #53
    Second Lieutenant Digby_Chinless's Avatar

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    I believe TheLand is correct, a gentleman's agreement.

    Don't happen much online

  14. #54
    There was a battle between two British frigates and a French Ship of the Line, it was called "Action of 13 January 1797", it was a battle off the coast of Brittany during the French Revolutionary wars. The French 74-gun ship of the line, the Droits de I'Homme, was unable to use her lower gundeck due to the rough seas, and she was unstable in the water, creating a really hard time for her gun crew to aim her guns. But on the other hand, the two British frigates, the HMS Amazon of 36 guns and the HMS Indefatigable of 44 guns, were doing much better, being much steadier in the water due to lower height and hull design, they also had enough waterline clearance to use all their guns as well. The French 74 was battered by the two British frigates, shots slammed one after another into the hull of the 74, but the frigates hardly took any damage; the French gun crew couldn't shoot accurately on an unstable gundeck. The damage taken by the French 74 was so severe that as the wind picked up even more, the French crew lost control of the ship, it was later swept onto a sandbar and wrecked. The French casualties were unbelievable, out of the 1300 crew aboard the French 74, 103 died in the battle, little over 300 were saved from the wreckage, and about 900 crew members were lost in the wreck. One of the two British frigates was wrecked, too. The HMS Amazon lost 3 in the battle and 6 in her wreck with 15 wounded. The other British frigate, the HMS Indefatigable, had 18 wounded and did not lose a single man.

    whoa that was a long post, hope yall enjoyed this history lesson. Many times it's more than just the ship and the crew that determines the battle. The weather gage is one of those things that really depends on your luck or how much Poseidon likes you. Sometimes I would prefer a pair of frigates for a battle instead of a SOL, a pair of frigates would be faster and more manuverable, if they form a line of battle, they could still put up a fight against the SOL, but they can out-manuver the SOL, and in situations like the one above, frigates would be much better. Usually, a SOL is with a fleet of other ships, the French 74 in the battle above was separated from the failed invasion attempt on Ireland by France. It was separated, as you may have guessed, by the violent weather. SOL's aren't made to operate alone, as they are too valuable to risk. The first and second rates never travels far at all, and they're always in the CENTER of a FLEET. The third and fourth rates are usually the flagships of smaller fleets or in pairs. So there shouldn't be very many times that you'll see a second rate go up against another second rate, unless the rest of the fleet has been totally all killed off.

  15. #55
    TY for the post Cpt. Jack. I did enjoy the little read =D

  16. #56
    Yes thank you Jack.
    Indeed the Amazon ran into shallow waters too.

    If you have seen the Horatio Hornblower series, there is an episode that they (a SoL) were threatened by 2 French frigates. Hornblower, ofcourse who else, saw the trouble and managed to repel the danger by firing one of the guns.

    Anyway. A pack of hyenas is one of the most dangerous predators in the world.
    Last edited by Verhoeven; 07-05-2009 at 13:52.

  17. #57
    Second Lieutenant Digby_Chinless's Avatar

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    Thanks Capt. Aubrey.

    That 2 vs 1 scenario I played many times online with AoS2. It was a very good scenario and well balanced. The two frigate captains needed to work closely together (one of the frigates I recall started much closer to the Frenchman and if he engaged alone the British chances were seriously reduced) and the French player could win easily if he handled his ship well but could equally easily have it handed to him if he made a mistake.

  18. #58
    Lord High Admiral merlin2199's Avatar
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    Any of you played Pirates of the Burning Sea?

    It has some issues, but the ship combat is amazing. SoL's are meant for combined fleets. Frigates are meant for single or small group actions. Each has its strengths and weaknesses.

    The SoL's battles in PotBS were/are violent affairs, immensely costly and finite. Sometimes lasting well over an hour, others lasting under 20 minutes. If you want carnage and awesome power, SoL line battles are your cup of tea. However, I found small group and single engagements the most fun. Tactics matter more, maneuverability and speed are crucial.

    Most memorable were three engagements. One in which I took down a 4th rate twice in a 42 gun frigate. Another, while escorting a friendly 4th rate in the same frigate we were attacked by 4 pirates. That fight lasted for a good hour. As we were outnumbered, keeping the wind was vital. But they were more maneuverable, there was a lot of jockeying for position. My mate's 4th rate provided the fire power, I provided the flank and rear guard, and providing fire support. We sank 3 of them and the last withdrew. The last engagement our group of 4 medium frigates where hit but a group of 6 heavy pirate frigates. Through skillful maneuvering and use of the wind and coastline we sank 2 of them and fought the other 4 to a stand still until they withdrew.

    I no longer play the game, but the one thing I miss are the ship battles. If I could get around the silly production and economic issues the game has, it would be perfect!

    Really looking forward to this game, though it has changed a lot since I first saw it. Do you get to captain a single ship in combat? Do you manage the entire company's fleet? Guess I should read up
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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt.Jack Aubrey View Post
    whoa that was a long post
    Normally I'm not a fan of long posts (that was moderate by my estimations anyway haha!) but it was very interesting, nonetheless. Cheers for the information, I vaguely recall hearing of this action before somewhere, but was nice of you to summarise it like that.

  20. #60
    Lord High Admiral merlin2199's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palisadoes View Post
    Normally I'm not a fan of long posts
    LOL guess mine falls under the "long" category
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