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Thread: Werewolf General Planning Thread

  1. #2781
    Ironhead was right EUROO7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhead 5 View Post
    Back to the way we hemorrhage players; I suspect that the reason (and again, this is not an indictment of AOK's playing style) is because -- as EURO said -- this has become chess. Start any new game, and I can predict with 99% accuracy what will happen: Day 1, two villagers will be run up, one will be lynched. Day 2, repeat. Day 3, repeat. Day 4, repeat. Day 5, or sometime around there, a JL emerges and outs a baddie or two. For those lucky enough to be in the JL or in a wolfpack, the game becomes slightly more interesting; for everyone else, they are still sitting there, twiddling their thumbs and waiting to be told who to vote. Day 6, wolfpack tries to hunt JL while JL tries to ping and out baddies. Day 7, repeat. Day 8, repeat. Day 9, repeat. Day 10, repeat. Day 11, or sometime around there, the wolfpack has been whittled down and the JL has lost all scanners. Now it is endgame and might become interesting for the handful of players left. Game ends; new game starts, start again at Day 1.
    So you're problem is with the players.
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  2. #2782
    Big nasty meany jonti-h's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by punkbob View Post
    I also think that the recent forum slowness might be killing interest as well, especially for something like Werewolf that requires a ton of activity. I gave up on the recent big game because it was taking me so long to read each post in the thread.


    Which leads me to another point, if they kill the OT yet again, they tend to leave this subforum alone. It might be wise to avoid that scenario.
    Holy cr*p I agree with punkbob.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhead 5 View Post
    I agree with jacob-Lundgren -- let's simplify, and find solutions instead of bickering and taking personal offense at the problems being mentioned.

    This ought to be a discussion among all in the community. I respectfully submit that we should answer, in a fair discussion, such questions as:
    OK

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhead 5 View Post
    1. Is there a problem, and what is it? (is the problem only that we cannot attract new players? or is it that we cannot retain new players? or is it something else?)
    Well there definitely is a problem. Activity has gone through the floor, and there are fewer people signing up than before. It's not just that we have trouble attracting new players, it is that we have trouble keeping the players we do have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhead 5 View Post
    2. Are there any problems with gameplay? (Euro said it has become chess; is this true? if so, why, and how do we fix it?)
    Inevitably, there comes a point where playing essentially the same game with the same people becomes formulaic. As far as Lite is concerned, there is not a great deal that anyone can do, lite is a short form of the game that does not allow for much finessing. The only change for lite can come with a change in player behaviour, rather than anything the GM does. Full WW is different. For my part, I tend to keep my head down in full as I haven't a clue what goes on, but full WW allows the most scope for changes in the game. I think that while GMs shouldn't go nuts in full games, changes to the way the game is played are what makes it interesting. Yes, there should be player feedback and it should be listened to *at the end of the game* but full should not be allowed to become static.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhead 5 View Post
    2a. I have contended that there are cultural problems -- such as AOK outing himself as a wolf, and still somehow surviving to lynch important goodies. Does anyone else think this is a problem?
    It shows that AOK could sell sand to an Arab, and there aren't enough people with the wit to counterbalance him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhead 5 View Post
    2b. AOK established the "Coalition Against Werewolf Zombies" a couple of years ago. I contend that zombieism is back and as debilitating to the game as ever -- but because it has been incorporated into our gameplay, it is easily dismissed. Does anyone else think this is the case?
    I do indeed. We have seen, especially in Lite, a number of games where players have been hunted early in order of how good they are, so players like you, AOK and me have been hunted early in the game and that had encouraged the remaining players to shut up, and basically prepare themselves for execution, not that they needed much preparing. It is *exactly* the same problem as in 2007 (when IIRC CAWZ was thought up) whereby the wolves would eat all the active players and leave the deadbeats to die in a mess of their own stupidity. It should not, must not, be allowed to start again - the only way to counteract it is to hang the players who do it and hunt them early. We also have a problem where there are a lot of people who sign up and then don't do much. Nobody expects all players to have the analytical skills of AOK *but* people can contribute in their own ways. You don't have to post walls of text, but to think and be active in the game. There's a problem however with people who come into the game and do sod all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhead 5 View Post
    3. Does our site offer enough positive and unique features to entice players that could spend their time at other WW sites?
    Never been on any other sites, so iunno.
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  3. #2783
    Lone wolf marty99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhead 5 View Post
    1. Is there a problem, and what is it? (is the problem only that we cannot attract new players? or is it that we cannot retain new players? or is it something else?)
    Attracting new players and retaining new players is definitely an issue, perhaps the major one. But there are others, I think the lack, or total absence, or roleplaying has diminished the fun of games recently. I'm not an RP guy and I consider analysis more important, but it does help the atmosphere of a game greatly.

    I think as a community as a whole we have become a lot less civil to each other - not more aggressive game-play wise (which is fine), but more derogatory to players personally, and whether or not some players may occasionally mess up there is no need to insult them personally; I'm not criticising as I am guilty of this also, but I think this sours the atmosphere of a game. In the older games if someone made a mistake other people would acknowledge it sure, and perhaps take punitive action, but they wouldn't spend so much time complaining. Sometimes I think we take ourselves too seriously. Remember we are designated as an RP game.

    Another problem is that any product has a limited life-cycle, there is nothing wrong with the current game but for many people if they play the same game too much they eventually tire of it, the same is true of any game in the world in fact. This is a separate problem from the lack of new recruits: no matter how many new players we get, if our stable group of players continue to grow tired of the game at the rate they do, we will never have the same numbers we did at our peak.


    2. Are there any problems with gameplay? (Euro said it has become chess; is this true? if so, why, and how do we fix it?)
    Yes. I was - sometimes still am - one of the worst people for following AOK mindlessly. While I think sometimes this can be beneficial purely for analysis, it reduces the overall fun of the game, and I can understand why many new players wouldn't understand why Werewolf can be so great if all they see are these random bandwagons.
    However, I don't think your policy of getting everyone to provide a reason for their vote every day is much better, sometimes there is little to analyse, sometimes players have little time to do the analysis. People who continually offer no justification for their vote, however, should be considered for being lynched.
    I think a less structured game would be better, of course throaways and bandwagons are bad for analysis, but I've now come to the conclusion that ordering people how to vote, and providing blueprints for future analysis, is even worse.

    In terms of actual role set-up, I think, always have, that the JL is a terrible thing whenever it gets powerful. Non-JL villagers then become totally useless in the game. A lot of GM's try to counterbalance this by making the wolf-packs more powerful, this may balance the game but it does not address the issue, the games are still stale and boring even if the baddies win.
    A JL should not only be less powerful in identifying baddies but should be easier to infiltrate as well. White Daimon in particular is a GM that strives for this and I think future GM's could learn from him.
    We need to make the game fun for normal vanilla villagers, being one can be tedious for some players, but it doesn't have to be. Again the answer is not to give everybody traits and make them part of a super-duper organisation, but to structure the game so that each individual players contribution is important, and that also there is greater scope for working behind the scenes.

    2a. I have contended that there are cultural problems -- such as AOK outing himself as a wolf, and still somehow surviving to lynch important goodies. Does anyone else think this is a problem?
    There has always been collective stupidity in werewolf. You yourself have evaded the lynch as an outed wolf a good few times. The recent episode was one of the more extreme examples of this, true, but that was partly due to the disillusionment of the villagers at the time. I don't think we will ever solve completely that kind of stupidity, and anyway I believe that obtuseness, the whole idea of an uninformed and terrified mob, can sometimes be a good thing in WW.

    2b. AOK established the "Coalition Against Werewolf Zombies" a couple of years ago. I contend that zombieism is back and as debilitating to the game as ever -- but because it has been incorporated into our gameplay, it is easily dismissed. Does anyone else think this is the case?
    I think you are confusing ''zombieism'' with ''sheepishness'', being a zombie is never doing anything of note and only posting once a day. A sheep can be active but does not think for themselves, and yes I think this is a problem. But I don't think complete inactivity is part of our gameplay. We still do focus on lynching inactives sometimes, and they certainly aren't looked upon favourably by the community. But I agree that we should place more emphasis on independent thinking.

    3. Does our site offer enough positive and unique features to entice players that could spend their time at other WW sites?
    I've looked at MafiaScum recently, I haven't played in any of their games but I believe Paradox Werewolf is unique in terms of internet werewolf/mafia - or at least, it used to be. The great thing is the fact that although we do place a lot of value on analysis and discussion, at the same time we don't - or at least we didn't - take ourselves too seriously. And those who didn't wish to participate in that side of the game used to roleplay instead and that was encouraged.
    I don't think there's a problem with the level of analysis generally, in fact there is probably more than in the older games, it's just that those people that didn't participate in discussion would RP instead, while now we consistently have a large proportion of players contributing nothing to the game.

    Our role-setup I think is superior to most offerings, and the fact that we have one large game at a time and as such our set-ups evolve over time, building on previous games, is better than the behemoth forums where there are countless variations, makes for more balanced and fun set-ups.

    Also, the main theme across the internet for this game is mafia, werewolf is considerably rarer and as such we have a bit of a niche in the market, so to speak.

    Lastly, and most importantly, Paradox is not a dedicated mafia site, and although many of us love this game a little more than is healthy and frequent the actual main forums very little, we still have the benefit of PI players and OT-goers coming here to play. For dedicated players interested only in this game this may not be an advantage, but I feel most players feel a lot of loyalty to our brand of the game, and wouldn't move to other sites.



    3a. What are our shortcomings?
    I've kinda covered that already, it sort of overlapped into my other points, so I won't say anything further.

    So those are my thoughts. I've just wrote down everything that has occurred to me at this time, and it may not all be very helpful, but I hope that at least some of it may be of some interest.

  4. #2784
    Captain, United States Army Ironhead 5's Avatar
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    Good insight, jonti-h, thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by EUROO7 View Post
    So you're problem is with the players.
    My problem is with how anemic this community has become. My diagnosis is that players have left because the game is predictable and boring. My prescription is a change to our culture, not the players.

    WW generates a mob mentality; that is part of the fun. But when the mob mentality points the community in the wrong direction over and over again, we need a cultural change to get pointed in the right direction again.

    There are some things that innocent villagers should never, ever do because they are so detrimental to the good of the village; and so when someone in the game does it, the mob should assume the worst and descend upon the troublemaker for an immediate lynch.

    Among these things a villager should never do:

    1. Announce that he is a wolf. Even if he really is just a "suicidal villager," he has drawn attention away from the real baddies. Besides, players who want to quit have another recourse -- asking to be subbed out.

    2. Vote-snipe to create a tie; unless the villager is a member of the JL and the JL has reason to believe the lynchees are baddies. If this happens, a shrewd baddie will claim afterward that he is part of the JL; it is incumbent upon the JL to verify this, and if they do not the village should lynch the tie-maker.

    3. Vote-snipe to switch from one frontrunner to another without giving a reason (ie, "I'm convinced now that so-and-so is a more likely baddie due to the weight of argument given by Messrs. Lundgren and Yoshi"). If an unjustified vote-snipe occurs, the village should assume it was done to save a baddie and the next day's lynch should proceed accordingly (either by lynching the vote-sniper or the frontrunner who was saved).

    4. Voting for anyone else on days when a baddie is outed. If there are no other outed baddies, and an otherwise unimpeached player outs someone as a baddie, the village must focus like a laser on either the player outed; or, if his integrity is impeached by an independent source, the player doing the outing. Saying "so-and-so has enough votes, let's try to run up someone else" is just inviting the baddies to save their outed packmate. If the outed player turns out to be a goodie, the player who did the outing has a lot of explaining to do (but unless he has an outstanding explanation, he should be lynched).

    5. Out someone as a baddie who is not a confirmed baddie. If someone has been scanned as a baddie, he should be outed. If he has been pinged because a goodie managed to infiltrate a wolfpack, then he should be outed. If, as sometimes happens, a villager just has a strong suspicion, he should state his suspicion and the case -- but not lie and say he was scanned and pinged as a baddie. Such lies are detrimental to the good of the village and, unless the liar has a god explanation, he ought to be lynched.

    One significant exception to all the above standards: the JL will do whatever is necessary to kill baddies, and so if an established JLer violates one of the above rules he should of course be afforded enough flexibility to execute his plan. If someone who fancies himself a JLer violates these rules and in so doing fails to identify and kill baddies, the village ought to assume he has been compromised and should proceed accordingly.

    EUROO7 and AOK. 11 champion the virtues of guiding lynches by organizing as many votes as possible onto only two candidates -- thus generating data for analyzing. This intent is good and does in fact yield results down the road -- if the shepherd is good. But when baddies organize votes that way, they do so in a way that benefits them and devastates the village. Because of this risk, villagers must assume that shepherds whose affiliation have not been confirmed are evil and not blindly follow their exhortations (confirmed goodies, especially JLers, should be allowed as much leeway to shepherd votes as they can get away with). The corollary to this is to be suspicious of anyone who does blindly follow such shepherding as a likely packmate of the shepherd.

    These are the cultural changes I think we ought to make.
    "...don't hesitate to kill Ironhead 5, he controls this village."
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  5. #2785
    Captain, United States Army Ironhead 5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marty99 View Post
    I've looked at MafiaScum recently, I haven't played in any of their games but I believe Paradox Werewolf is unique in terms of internet werewolf/mafia - or at least, it used to be.
    Mafiascum is the largest site I've ever seen -- tens of thousands of active players -- but it is also the worst. I still play there from time to time, but after every game I throw up my hands in despair. It really isn't much fun -- too cold and impersonal.

    Having said that, the one thing they are Nazis about is providing a reason for your vote. Mindless voting earns an immediate lynch there; that is NOT what I am trying to bring here (per se), but I would like to see a happy medium between the draconian restrictions there and the libertine voting here.
    "...don't hesitate to kill Ironhead 5, he controls this village."
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  6. #2786
    Ironhead was right EUROO7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhead 5 View Post
    EUROO7 and AOK. 11 champion the virtues of guiding lynches by organizing as many votes as possible onto only two candidates -- thus generating data for analyzing. This intent is good and does in fact yield results down the road -- if the shepherd is good. But when baddies organize votes that way, they do so in a way that benefits them and devastates the village. Because of this risk, villagers must assume that shepherds whose affiliation have not been confirmed are evil and not blindly follow their exhortations (confirmed goodies, especially JLers, should be allowed as much leeway to shepherd votes as they can get away with). The corollary to this is to be suspicious of anyone who does blindly follow such shepherding as a likely packmate of the shepherd.
    That's not at all how I play.

    Firstly, I don't get involved with the lynch if the players are being active and analysing and discussing things in the thread. It is only when I see nothing happening that I tell people to vote one person. They do so, and in that a bit of data is revealed. How long it took a player to make the switch, if he mindlessly followed me, I keep a close eye on him, if he challenged me, and came up with sound analysis, I follow that analysis and move however many votes I can to fit the analysis of that player. Once again, the people most likely to follow AOK and I are the wolves.

    We don't say vote x and y, then leave. At least that's not what I do, and your attempts to try to portray what I do as systematic and methodical is only making you look uninformed and out of touch with what really happens in the game.
    And one day we will die and our ashes will fly from the aeroplane over the sea
    But for now we are young let us lay in the sun and count every beautiful thing we can see......
    And victorious in war shall be made glorious in peace

  7. #2787
    GM/Brutal Werewolf Leader Demi Moderator jacob-Lundgren's Avatar
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    I mindlessly vote with you guys a lot....although it is part of my greater plot to then later abuse the fact I did to hide myself from whatever side is trying to kill me.
    A person of swedish descent who doesnt speak swedish. Number of PMs in swedish to date I couldn't understand 18
    altering your sig so you hope you wont get anymore confusing PMs
    Priceless

    *Will update fully when I come up with something good to stick in here*

  8. #2788
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUROO7 View Post
    That's not at all how I play.
    I didn't say that is how you played. I said you champion the virtues of such gameplay. As you said earlier in the ongoing game, you don't deal in single votes -- you deal in mass votes.


    Quote Originally Posted by EUROO7 View Post
    It is only when I see nothing happening that I tell people to vote one person. They do so, and in that a bit of data is revealed. How long it took a player to make the switch, if he mindlessly followed me, I keep a close eye on him, if he challenged me, and came up with sound analysis, I follow that analysis and move however many votes I can to fit the analysis of that player. Once again, the people most likely to follow AOK and I are the wolves.
    Right -- nothing wrong with you or AOK. 11 trying to shepherd votes, but since the rest of the village does not know your affiliation they should avoid following you. As you note -- those who allow themselves to be sheep are likely to be bad -- which is why it should never happen, as the baddies are supposed to be trying to blend in.


    Quote Originally Posted by EUROO7 View Post
    We don't say vote x and y, then leave. At least that's not what I do, and your attempts to try to portray what I do as systematic and methodical is only making you look uninformed and out of touch with what really happens in the game.
    *bangs shoe against table* these ad hominem straw man attacks will not stand! *bang* we will bury you!

    But seriously, saying I am "uninformed and out of touch with what really happens in the game" is just silly.
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  9. #2789
    Ironhead was right EUROO7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhead 5 View Post
    I didn't say that is how you played. I said you champion the virtues of such gameplay. As you said earlier in the ongoing game, you don't deal in single votes -- you deal in mass votes.
    You are wrong about that. And while I do deal in mass votes, that does not mean I don't analyse who does what why and when.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhead 5 View Post
    Right -- nothing wrong with you or AOK. 11 trying to shepherd votes, but since the rest of the village does not know your affiliation they should avoid following you. As you note -- those who allow themselves to be sheep are likely to be bad -- which is why it should never happen, as the baddies are supposed to be trying to blend in.
    Has it crossed your mind their following AOK and me is their attempt to discover our allegiance? Do you propose that no one say anything until a JL emerges to tell everyone who to mindlessly vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhead 5 View Post

    *bangs shoe against table* these ad hominem straw man attacks will not stand! *bang* we will bury you!

    But seriously, saying I am "uninformed and out of touch with what really happens in the game" is just silly.
    Not when you repeatedly potray my modus operandi as something it clearly is not.
    And one day we will die and our ashes will fly from the aeroplane over the sea
    But for now we are young let us lay in the sun and count every beautiful thing we can see......
    And victorious in war shall be made glorious in peace

  10. #2790
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUROO7 View Post
    Do you propose that no one say anything until a JL emerges to tell everyone who to mindlessly vote?
    How in the world did you conclude that this was the thrust of my criticism???
    "...don't hesitate to kill Ironhead 5, he controls this village."
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  11. #2791
    Ironhead was right EUROO7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhead 5 View Post
    How in the world did you conclude that this was the thrust of my criticism???
    If players can't know everyone's allegiance so they must not follow anyone.

    Not everyone has the time to completely analyse every post and vote accordingly.
    And one day we will die and our ashes will fly from the aeroplane over the sea
    But for now we are young let us lay in the sun and count every beautiful thing we can see......
    And victorious in war shall be made glorious in peace

  12. #2792
    Captain, United States Army Ironhead 5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUROO7 View Post
    If players can't know everyone's allegiance so they must not follow anyone.

    Not everyone has the time to completely analyse every post and vote accordingly.
    Now you're catching on! Those players who cannot make heads or tails of the data available will have to serve as an ad hoc jury; and the demagogues who think they know what is best for everyone will have to serve as prosecutors, trying to convince them through strength of reasoning to cast their vote for their candidate.
    "...don't hesitate to kill Ironhead 5, he controls this village."
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  13. #2793
    Ironhead was right EUROO7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhead 5 View Post
    Now you're catching on! Those players who cannot make heads or tails of the data available will have to serve as an ad hoc jury; and the demagogues who think they know what is best for everyone will have to serve as prosecutors, trying to convince them through strength of reasoning to cast their vote for their candidate.
    Yes.
    And one day we will die and our ashes will fly from the aeroplane over the sea
    But for now we are young let us lay in the sun and count every beautiful thing we can see......
    And victorious in war shall be made glorious in peace

  14. #2794
    Big nasty meany jonti-h's Avatar
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    Obv, I have no problem with anyone saying "everyone vote........." but I do have a problem with the sheep following when nobody knows their role.
    Support the right to arm bears My Lemeard Cookie for making a 4 way TIE
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  15. #2795
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonti-h View Post
    Obv, I have no problem with anyone saying "everyone vote........." but I do have a problem with the sheep following when nobody knows their role.
    Agreed. The person trying to play shepherd is not the problem; it is the sheep who willingly follow the shepherd, instead of regarding the shepherd with deep suspicion.
    "...don't hesitate to kill Ironhead 5, he controls this village."
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  16. #2796
    Ironhead was right EUROO7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhead 5 View Post
    Agreed. The person trying to play shepherd is not the problem; it is the sheep who willingly follow the shepherd, instead of regarding the shepherd with deep suspicion.
    So what do we do?
    And one day we will die and our ashes will fly from the aeroplane over the sea
    But for now we are young let us lay in the sun and count every beautiful thing we can see......
    And victorious in war shall be made glorious in peace

  17. #2797
    Quote Originally Posted by reis91 View Post
    Jerard played one Big game, but was dropped out by inactivity. Can't remember the others in last 3 months.
    Jerard played in more than one game, I remember calling him jerald for multiple games. I suppose it could have been a Lite game but I doubt it, I haven't played much Lite at all in teh last few years.

  18. #2798
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbr View Post
    Jerard played in more than one game, I remember calling him jerald for multiple games. I suppose it could have been a Lite game but I doubt it, I haven't played much Lite at all in teh last few years.
    reis hasn't been here very long.
    And one day we will die and our ashes will fly from the aeroplane over the sea
    But for now we are young let us lay in the sun and count every beautiful thing we can see......
    And victorious in war shall be made glorious in peace

  19. #2799
    Captain, United States Army Ironhead 5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUROO7 View Post
    So what do we do?
    That's the crux of it. There's not much we can do; certainly we should not try to fix this with rule changes; that would almost certainly backfire and stifle creativity and chaos.
    "...don't hesitate to kill Ironhead 5, he controls this village."
    Author of the best Werewolf rant of all time.

  20. #2800
    Ironhead was right EUROO7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhead 5 View Post
    That's the crux of it. There's not much we can do; certainly we should not try to fix this with rule changes; that would almost certainly backfire and stifle creativity and chaos.
    Both AOK and I will leave.
    And one day we will die and our ashes will fly from the aeroplane over the sea
    But for now we are young let us lay in the sun and count every beautiful thing we can see......
    And victorious in war shall be made glorious in peace

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