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Werewolf General Planning Thread

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Ironhead 5 said:
1. I had no idea you were a seducer.
2. I had no idea WD was a seer.
3. I had no idea k-59 was a spy.
4. I had no idea johho888 was a GA.
5. I had no idea EL was a seducer.
6. I had no idea EUROO7, marty99, J. Pass and Ciryandor were evil.
7. I still have no idea what Adamus is.
8. These people had no idea if I was good or evil.

All I got was a list of names. From there, I had to feel everyone out and sense who was good or evil. A great deal of trust (especially on johho's and WD's part) and a great deal of luck were involved. This was obviously not an insta-JL.
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One scanned wolf and you are in business. The link for contact is provided instantly. That is the most difficult thing in forming a JL (or forming baddie contact with the sorc and other culties). Finding who the other scanners are is the key. You are able to shorten the list dramatically instantly. Scanners have a link. Through you. Once you get a couple of pieces the JL is up and running.

Yes, there was luck, but it impacted the game immensely. One piece goes the right way and you have a JL within a couple of days. Next thing you know half the baddies are dead. If the goodies get lucky in a normal game, you get 1-2 baddies dead. Not with that trait. If you get the combined information of all those order givers you get what you saw in that game, which was a long string of outings. Rather boring. Combine that with things like the seducer trait, especially given to people such as myself who attract wolves, that caused a ton of no kills and you have a mess.

The main point is I fail to see why this is needed. Explain to me why we need stuff like this given the masterpiece from Kriszo. It adds nothing. It can subtract alot. If you guys want to play that way thats fine. I will save future GMs the trouble of my complaints and not sign up. I fail to see the point. There is nothing wrong with Werewolf. Leave it alone.

I mean really, did anyone stop and think during Kriszo's game that...wait a minute...we need 24 traits and 12 roles and a pathlogical liar that can make new abilities up? No. Jacob is right. Just keep it simple. Thats my take. :)
 
AOK. 11 said:
The main point is I fail to see why this is needed. Explain to me why we need stuff like this given the masterpiece from Kriszo. It adds nothing. It can subtract alot. If you guys want to play that way thats fine. I will save future GMs the trouble of my complaints and not sign up. I fail to see the point. There is nothing wrong with Werewolf. Leave it alone.

I mean really, did anyone stop and think during Kriszo's game that...wait a minute...we need 24 traits and 12 roles and a pathlogical liar that can make new abilities up? No. Jacob is right. Just keep it simple. Thats my take. :)
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Ok now this a bugs me. Who really wants to just replay Kriszo game over again? Sounds pretty boring to me, and I had way more fun in CI than C because of 1) being a spy 2) I5 contacting me.
 
AOK. 11 said:
One scanned wolf and you are in business. The link for contact is provided instantly. That is the most difficult thing in forming a JL (or forming baddie contact with the sorc and other culties). Finding who the other scanners are is the key. You are able to shorten the list dramatically instantly.
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Yes, my link was shortened dramatically. Too dramatically, in fact -- Kaetje the priest never appeared on my list because you seduced her that night. So my ingenious trait backfired, as I assumed you or JPass were the priest (because you were on my list).

As for the "one-scanned wolf and you are in business" complaint -- WD had a scanned wolf on Night 0. The JL was not formed until Day 3 (and none of us trusted each other until the day before johho888 died). Do you see why one scanned wolf makes no difference? You still have to be able to trust a spokesman -- and WD had no way of trusting me (nor I of trusting him). We only ever outed three baddies -- Kriszo, Ciryandor, and marty99. Hax and Lurken were killed (led by you) by pure chance. jonti-h was outed by marty99. the_hdk was outed by Paendrag. J. Pass was outed by Kaetje. And you outed yourself. So three baddies -- 2 scanned wolves and a self-outing cultist... that just about matches the statistics you cite for the functioning of a JL-less village.
 
I am also saying let us continue that game as it is. No adding roles. no extra seer or priest because then it will devolve into another round of "they are too powerful". That is counter-productive.

Let us play with what we have.

Hell, which villager doesn't want to overcome these odds? It is jonti and johho-worthy to come from behind and win for the village with these crappy odds. All the wolves have to do is avoid 1 lynch. I WANT the t-shirt that says "I survived the combined wolf-pack of death, and all I got was this lousy t-shirt" t-shirt.
 
I suppose. But the more I look at it, the more I think the goodies were facing some pretty stiff odds even before the pack merger. Consider that JPass was probably already in touch with the baddies (because I had been blasting out names of pinged baddies to him, and others from the list I had, since Day 3). WD and Kaetje would still be just as dead now; and we would still be sitting here without a scanner or anything to help us identify the baddies except voting behavior. If anyone needed a boost for game balance, it was the goodies. Instead, the baddies got a pack merger.

This doesn't seem like the sort of thing randakar would do on his own (or heck, maybe I'm wrong... how much do I know him?). I wonder if someone PM'd him to do this; and if so, who, and what did they say?

Bear in mind that the way things are now, without the ability to ping baddies, we have to hope to convince 9 of the 10 goodies to vote for the baddie -- all the baddies have to do is convince two goodies to switch their vote to a goodie, and the baddies will control the lynch. Can you imagine? On most days, the votes are pretty evenly dispersed across four or five candidates, at least until the end of the day. Now we have to focus all of the goodies (without knowing who they are) on one candidate, who is hopefully a baddie; and the baddies just have to run one candidate who they know to be a goodie, and they only have to persuade two goodies that their candidate is the more likely baddie.

And we have to do this each day -- persuade all goodies-1 to vote for what we hope to be a baddie. We're fucked -- that is why I am subbing out, unless randakar fixes the game.
 
The basic problem is when randakar rebalanced the game he ensured that he fucked it over. Either it was a poor set-up and 9 baddies were dead because of him, or it was fair set-up and merging the packs give the baddies an easy win. The lesson, GM's be true to thine own self.
 
As a general principle I think a GM should never under any circumstances change the rules once the game has started. (Clarifying unclear rules is of course something a GM must be allowed to do and sometimes things happens that isn't covered by the rules and then it is up to the GM to improvise.)

The reason for this is:
a) You never know, even as a GM, where the game will go - a string of luck or brilliance or utter stupidity by the opposing side can raise a seemingly losing side to victory. Or nothing special will happen and the game ends in a landslide victory. But that should be up to the players.
b) You break the illusion that is the game

And if the GM still thinks he needs to do something to compensate for something he messed up he should do it in such a way as to not break the illusion for the players. For example let the doc save work without rolling the dice. I still think this is wrong but the players wouldn't know so the illusion of a fair game is still there.

It is a bit ironical that Ironhead 5 is complaining about "rebalancing" the game because the only GM I have ever seen that changed the rules in midgame is - Baba-Bam - Ironhead 5 himself and what he did was - Dada-Dam - merge the remaing wolfpacks AND, even worse in my book, changed how one of the rules worked. (Pissed me of no ends when that happened since I was a cultist-soon-to-become-wolf that just sold out my wolf master to get into the JL and suddenly I was a normal cultist in another pack)

As for simple or complicated rules. I don't mind the diversity, some games can be simple some can be complicated. Both can be fun or boring depending on your role in them and how the game plays out. And there is a lot the GM can do with the setup - even with simple rules - to surprise the players.

As for hidden roles. As long as the GM states that the game will have hidden roles I'm OK with it. (I'm personally not all that found of it on principle but I was bible-thumper in a Ironhead game once and had great fun with that).

As for the pathological lier (and whatever the role EURO had in the last Ironhead game). I think a role that lets the player change the rules is bad. If for example the liar role would allow the player to pick any of the existing roles/traits for a day in the game that would be fine by me. Letting the player dream up new roles/traits during the game is even worse than letting the GM change the rules.
 
The game should not be discussed before it is over.

Also I agree with Johho, its pretty similar to what I wrote in my GM guide about being clear, concise and consistent.

This is all I will say until the game is over
 
Try giving a villager 10 doses of blessed if you want but give the baddies like 4-6 brutals as an example.
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Not the best of examples, as I fail to see how this is balance. No-hunts due to blessed trait can and do work against villagers as well. The counterpart to Blessed is Cursed, not Brutal. Brutal is counterpart to Leader, although Leader is way better than Brutal currently.

Also, I agree with Daimon, the game should be almost over, then we can get more input to discuss it.
 
trespoe said:
I am also saying let us continue that game as it is. No adding roles. no extra seer or priest because then it will devolve into another round of "they are too powerful". That is counter-productive.

Let us play with what we have.

Hell, which villager doesn't want to overcome these odds? It is jonti and johho-worthy to come from behind and win for the village with these crappy odds. All the wolves have to do is avoid 1 lynch. I WANT the t-shirt that says "I survived the combined wolf-pack of death, and all I got was this lousy t-shirt" t-shirt.
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I agree with you, the game as it stands doesn't need revolutionary ideas - evolution of what we have sure, but not a whole load of new stuff - it just causes more angst and whining later on!
Thanks for the compliment :)
 
White Daimon said:
The game should not be discussed before it is over.

Also I agree with Johho, its pretty similar to what I wrote in my GM guide about being clear, concise and consistent.

This is all I will say until the game is over
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If you are referring to me I was speaking in general terms but it is of course triggered by events that happened in the current game.

jonti-h said:
Thanks for the compliment :)
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Yes, thanks, trespoe. :) (Although I can't remember when I ever made a comeback for my side against all odds.)
 
reis91 said:
the game should be almost over, then we can get more input to discuss it.
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The game is on life support right now. I say, let's just provide palliative care. We can make sure the game dies in comfort and surrounded by loved ones.

Poor randakar. It isn't easy being a GM -- that is a terrific investment of time and energy, to put together a fresh update each day, to send out PMs to all the players who require one for their nightly action, etc. And I know from experience how discouraging it can be to have the mob openly lambasting your game, even while it was still going. But in this game, it was only a very small, but very vocal, minority who were bitching and moaning because they were about to die -- a few of us took time out of gameplay to offer up a feeble defense of randakar's game, but there was only so much I or anyone else could do without compromising our position in the game. It really wasn't fair to randakar to have his game criticized like that, especially as he is unable to defend himself in mid-game.

I was one of the majority who thought the game was going fine at that point, and the whiny brats complaining about it were only doing so because they were about to die anyway, and I thought randakar would have no problem bucking up and driving past their temper tantrums. But alas! Peer pressure. After so much criticism and no one to stand up for him, randakar did what probably (at the time) seemed to be the popular decision -- merging the packs. Maybe it was popular with the vocal minority (I note that one of his most vicious attackers became as gentle as a lamb the day he announced the pack merger), but it was a horrible decision, and it effectively ruined the game. A far better decision would have been to cancel the game right then and there and declare the baddies the winner. Why waste the time to go through completing the charade? It really isn't accurate to even call it a game anymore, as by that point the outcome was pre-determined.

I would have been one of randakar's most stalwart defenders after the game, if only he had the spine to follow-through on his own set-up (which, it appears, was pretty solid; but we will never know now, and arguing it is an exercise in futility). But I cannot defend the decision to merge the packs.
 
k-59 said:
Ok now this a bugs me. Who really wants to just replay Kriszo game over again? Sounds pretty boring to me, and I had way more fun in CI than C because of 1) being a spy 2) I5 contacting me.
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Then stop being a sheep. Only sheep needs roles and some other person to help them in order to make an impact. Get off the bench and throw yourself out there. I used to think like that. I hated being a villager. The problem wasn't that I was a villager, it was that I was a sheep with no initiative.

K, you do not need traits and roles to be an effective player. You can do it on your own. Everyone else can too. Its more fun that way. Trust me. :)

Ironhead 5 said:
I would have been one of randakar's most stalwart defenders after the game, if only he had the spine to follow-through on his own set-up
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Of course you would have been. He helped you and gave you a list from which almost every important goodie could be drawn. You are letting self interest blind you here. The pack merger was a terribly unbalanced response to a terribly unbalanced ability he gave you. As johho pointed out, you did the same thing in your clusterf**k of a game. The way to stop this is leave the game alone. It does need uber traits or uber packs. It needs a simple, balanced setup.

Not lets stop arguing here and fight in the game thread. Its more fun there. :)
 
AOK. 11 said:
I used to think like that. I hated being a villager. The problem wasn't that I was a villager, it was that I was a sheep with no initiative.

K, you do not need traits and roles to be an effective player. You can do it on your own. Everyone else can too. Its more fun that way. Trust me. :)
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This is true. You can do a lot of fun stuff with a seemingly unimportant role like a villager or a cultist. I used to long for important roles but nowadays I prefer being a villager or a cultist with maybe a little trait to spice it up.
 
reis91 said:
Not the best of examples, as I fail to see how this is balance. No-hunts due to blessed trait can and do work against villagers as well. The counterpart to Blessed is Cursed, not Brutal. Brutal is counterpart to Leader, although Leader is way better than Brutal currently.
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If you think this then you are really in need of a 2-3 hour sit down and deep analysis of WW as you are totally backwards atm. ;)
 
Ironhead 5 said:
The game is on life support right now. I say, let's just provide palliative care. We can make sure the game dies in comfort and surrounded by loved ones.

Poor randakar. It isn't easy being a GM -- that is a terrific investment of time and energy, to put together a fresh update each day, to send out PMs to all the players who require one for their nightly action, etc. And I know from experience how discouraging it can be to have the mob openly lambasting your game, even while it was still going. But in this game, it was only a very small, but very vocal, minority who were bitching and moaning because they were about to die -- a few of us took time out of gameplay to offer up a feeble defense of randakar's game, but there was only so much I or anyone else could do without compromising our position in the game. It really wasn't fair to randakar to have his game criticized like that, especially as he is unable to defend himself in mid-game.

I was one of the majority who thought the game was going fine at that point, and the whiny brats complaining about it were only doing so because they were about to die anyway, and I thought randakar would have no problem bucking up and driving past their temper tantrums. But alas! Peer pressure. After so much criticism and no one to stand up for him, randakar did what probably (at the time) seemed to be the popular decision -- merging the packs. Maybe it was popular with the vocal minority (I note that one of his most vicious attackers became as gentle as a lamb the day he announced the pack merger), but it was a horrible decision, and it effectively ruined the game. A far better decision would have been to cancel the game right then and there and declare the baddies the winner. Why waste the time to go through completing the charade? It really isn't accurate to even call it a game anymore, as by that point the outcome was pre-determined.

I would have been one of randakar's most stalwart defenders after the game, if only he had the spine to follow-through on his own set-up (which, it appears, was pretty solid; but we will never know now, and arguing it is an exercise in futility). But I cannot defend the decision to merge the packs.
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I might be inclined to listen to this well reasoned post...were it not that THE GAME IS STILL ON-GOING!

As far as I am concerned...those who were bitching and moaning before got the rules changed in a way that unbalanced the game...however, if you believe that this is the case...WHY DO YOU WANT TO BITCH AND MOAN TO GET THE RULES CHANGED AGAIN??!

That makes no sense.

Wait until after the game.

As far as I'm concerned, the fact that this conversation is going on over here while the rest of us 'rookies' are unaware of it, even though it has implications on the game play (information is being disseminated on who knew what when)...is very much against the spirit of the game.

I ask that all discussion of the current game (especially by dead players) in this thread cease, immediately. Discussion can resume once randy's game is over.
 
reis91 said:
Haven't seen anything compromising around here yet. I have seen flamed debates, fireworks, but no actual info that could jeopardize the game.

Jacob, we already had that discussion. And you point as main argument that my join date is 2010 and yours is older. I cannot fight that argument.
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You see anyone else wanting to argue WW rules with me? :p
 
AOK. 11 said:
Then stop being a sheep. Only sheep needs roles and some other person to help them in order to make an impact. Get off the bench and throw yourself out there. I used to think like that. I hated being a villager. The problem wasn't that I was a villager, it was that I was a sheep with no initiative.

K, you do not need traits and roles to be an effective player. You can do it on your own. Everyone else can too. Its more fun that way. Trust me. :)
Click to expand...

You weren't that keen on Doctor either from what I recall ;)

Ironhead 5 said:
The game is on life support right now. I say, let's just provide palliative care. We can make sure the game dies in comfort and surrounded by loved ones.

Poor randakar. It isn't easy being a GM -- that is a terrific investment of time and energy, to put together a fresh update each day, to send out PMs to all the players who require one for their nightly action, etc. And I know from experience how discouraging it can be to have the mob openly lambasting your game, even while it was still going. But in this game, it was only a very small, but very vocal, minority who were bitching and moaning because they were about to die -- a few of us took time out of gameplay to offer up a feeble defense of randakar's game, but there was only so much I or anyone else could do without compromising our position in the game. It really wasn't fair to randakar to have his game criticized like that, especially as he is unable to defend himself in mid-game.

I was one of the majority who thought the game was going fine at that point, and the whiny brats complaining about it were only doing so because they were about to die anyway, and I thought randakar would have no problem bucking up and driving past their temper tantrums. But alas! Peer pressure. After so much criticism and no one to stand up for him, randakar did what probably (at the time) seemed to be the popular decision -- merging the packs. Maybe it was popular with the vocal minority (I note that one of his most vicious attackers became as gentle as a lamb the day he announced the pack merger), but it was a horrible decision, and it effectively ruined the game. A far better decision would have been to cancel the game right then and there and declare the baddies the winner. Why waste the time to go through completing the charade? It really isn't accurate to even call it a game anymore, as by that point the outcome was pre-determined.

I would have been one of randakar's most stalwart defenders after the game, if only he had the spine to follow-through on his own set-up (which, it appears, was pretty solid; but we will never know now, and arguing it is an exercise in futility). But I cannot defend the decision to merge the packs.
Click to expand...
Iron's right, the game was going reasonalby well until the merge - which was a mistake. It's not easy though when you have vocal whiney b*tches going on at you all the time! Next time Randy, ignore the whiners and tell them to go and perform an act of self love.


reis91 said:
Haven't seen anything compromising around here yet. I have seen flamed debates, fireworks, but no actual info that could jeopardize the game.

Jacob, we already had that discussion. And you point as main argument that my join date is 2010 and yours is older. I cannot fight that argument.
Click to expand...

Jacob's right. This is all. Seriously, arguing rules with one of the most experienced players here - probably more so than even AOK and me - is not going to end well ;)
 
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