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But now to my question to you; do you have anything (like music, gfx etc etc) that are ready to be implented and that you'd like to see implented into the 0.01 relase on sunday?

Well I could myself implant that so not the size get's bigger when you posting to me the 0,01 version;) I know how to implant GFX;)
And sorry but it seems we won't have .csv files for every starting country for 0,01. But I can send you the pictures and names and you can make them.

60 hours and mod willl be realised.

The mod will be released Sunday, around 12:00 clock CET - GMT +1.
Maybe one hour later or earlier;)
 
Finishing the last for the upcoming relase (actually, coding some welcome events as we speak) and there won't be any larger things added for the 0.01 release, so we shouldn go ahead and talk a bit about the 0.02 release and when/what we can/should except to be in it:

Gukan:How long do you think it will take for you to write the names on the map? Can anyone help you in order to speed up the work? (If I get some kind of list or the provincenames.csv, I can help a bit with this task, but it's up to you if you need/want help or not)

El-faith/gukan: Provincenames.csv; how long do you estimate it to take?

JRHINDO: C'est musique, when do you hope to get back your computer, so you can provide the music packs?

Hax / bad_haggis: When do you estimate that you're finished with coding in all ministers in proper .csv's that's collected?

supaplex / mesina2 (can't remeber whos task it is), sorry: How is it going with the revolt.txt? And how long do you except that you need?

Anything/anyone I forgot?

Beside this things (that I think should be in 0.02); I'd plan to make some larger, initial events for war, peaces and if revolt.txt is finished, some events of puppets breaking free, nations released etc.

Also, as soon as provincenames are ready, we should start to re-distribute IC, manpower and resources (it's in province.csv) into how we like it.

After doing some thinking and calculation (yes, sometime my work is boring) I thought of this suggestions:

In vanilla, ex. Bosnia would have 7 IC and one division would could 10 manpower and 8 IC . I suggest we multiple it with 10; so that ex Bosnia would have 70 IC, but a brigade (note: not division) would still cost 8 ic (unchanged, in order to prevent AI to spam infantry or such) but cost 10 or 100 manpower (doesn't matter really, IC is the key).

So then we have to define two things and decide on a couple of others and I say my version and you can critise or accept:

Which is the strongest nation IC-wise in june 1991, I guess Serbia?

Okey, let's say Serbia has 100 IC. (index, just a figure) How much should Kosova, Vojdovina, Croatia, Bosnia etc have?

Okey, after that; how much manpower was actually used historically in military / semimilitary groups? My thinkings is the following re: manpower:

the manpower we wrote as "vanilla" is as close to historical as possbile; the player - in certain circumstances - can increase the manpower available by certain measures - forced draft in cost of dissent, money loss, etc - in order to reinforce / build new brigades.

And do we go for brigade/battalion or battalion / company? I'd say the later; there's lots of provinces and there will have to be lots units to cover the great areas of the map.

Lastly, since the game is really fast (due to the few nations, lack of events and such) and it goes really quick for the AI to take provinces because of vanilla speed; me think that we should cut down speed DRASTICALLY; like speed 2 for inf (regular infantry, 1 for inf / art), 1 militia and such like and maybe 3 for armor, since AI / player will be able to take massive amounts of provinces because there's so many province; this could also been seen as it took loong time to consilidate conqured territory. This, together with longer combats like in WIF, I think is the best way to simulate the different type of warfare (compared to WW2) that occured during the Yugoslav Wars.

Over and out
 
Since the MP-layout isn't done and we're still using vanillas province.csv (that defines how much manpower that is in a province), you better ask that question a bit down the road when a design decision is taken on that point because manpower affect very much (how much will a unit cost? 10mp? 100mp?1000mp?) so it's later down the road.

I'd recomend to stay by that vanilla mapowers. Also i wouldn't recomend you to use wikipedia sources for manpower issues (such as looking how many citizens does each country have - and then converting them to manpower), because in most of these countries (for example Bosnia) somewhat 50% of citizens havs other nationality beside Bosnian (Croatian or Serbian, mostly), but on wikipedia are still counted as Bosnian. Same thing could go for Slovenia, because in Slovenia there are lots of people with Bosnian nationality counted as Slovenes.

PS. I also wouldn't recomend a map with so much provinces. Reason: How could you cover all those border provinces with your units, i mean, most of border provinces will still be empty even if you only focus on filling them up with your units. But i don't know, you probably have some solution to this, though i'd like to hear it
 
I'd recomend to stay by that vanilla mapowers.

Why do you recommend that? Either way, we have to redo the whole unit, manpower and IC layot, so that's merely a designdecision, so feel free to argue for your opinions.

Also i wouldn't recomend you to use wikipedia sources for manpower issues (such as looking how many citizens does each country have - and then converting them to manpower), because in most of these countries (for example Bosnia) somewhat 50% of citizens havs other nationality beside Bosnian (Croatian or Serbian, mostly), but on wikipedia are still counted as Bosnian. Same thing could go for Slovenia, because in Slovenia there are lots of people with Bosnian nationality counted as Slovenes.

Wikipedia is quite good (and especially when it comes to the balkan countries) to show the demographics of the country; i.e. in Bosnia (as of 2002) there was 1,10% Bosniaks, 1,81% croatians and 1,98% serbs. There was also 4,85 of other nationalites/ethnic identidy plus a 8,9% undeclared/unknown, so it's more than accurate for a mod for a game, me think.

Also, I never wrote we should just take the figures right off Wikipedia. I wrote that we should make the manpower, so that the player/AI could reach roughly historical accurate levels. In addition to that, I think we should have event that mobilize even more (forced draft, etc) to a cost of dissent. In even more future version if the tech tree is put back on, we can move it there; techs that increases manpower growth or one-time-only increases in manpower in cost of ex dissent or else.

PS. I also wouldn't recomend a map with so much provinces.

Considering the map has been in development for like more than a year; now is hardly the time to revert all the work that has been done.

Reason: How could you cover all those border provinces with your units, i mean, most of border provinces will still be empty even if you only focus on filling them up with your units.

First of all, the Yugoslavian War wasn't fought with divisions as in vanilla and thus, we won't have the vanilla divisional/brigade system, that will give us lots more units to occupy the provinces.

Also, as I also wrote, meausres like decreasing the speed of all units, make battles longer and increase the time/energy it takes to occupy a province (we could increaste revoltrisk, so one MUST have an unit to suppres rebels in EVERY taken province, so that AI nor player can advance to fast).

But i don't know, you probably have some solution to this, though i'd like to hear it

See above.

Okey, I'm doing the latest things. All countries won't have accurate starting cabinets (since I haven't recived them for all nations) but some will atleast; also I did some other changes, but that you have to wait until tomorrow to see. :rofl:

zybnex.png


15p66hy.png


4t901w.png


e1df9u.png
 
This is like a teaser.
 
Gukan:How long do you think it will take for you to write the names on the map? Can anyone help you in order to speed up the work? (If I get some kind of list or the provincenames.csv, I can help a bit with this task, but it's up to you if you need/want help or not)
Don't know how many time.... but hope it we be ready for 0.02 :D

El-faith/gukan: Provincenames.csv; how long do you estimate it to take?
Yesterday i send some work to El-Faith about province-names.csv. Waiting an answer.

Also, as soon as provincenames are ready, we should start to re-distribute IC, manpower and resources (it's in province.csv) into how we like it.
As i post before, with province-names file it will be easier, but we can work with the maps provided by El-Faith (the maps i posted in my last post) to know where ic, manpower, resources and VP will be placed.

After doing some thinking and calculation (yes, sometime my work is boring) I thought of this suggestions:

In vanilla, ex. Bosnia would have 7 IC and one division would could 10 manpower and 8 IC . I suggest we multiple it with 10; so that ex Bosnia would have 70 IC, but a brigade (note: not division) would still cost 8 ic (unchanged, in order to prevent AI to spam infantry or such) but cost 10 or 100 manpower (doesn't matter really, IC is the key).

So then we have to define two things and decide on a couple of others and I say my version and you can critise or accept:

Which is the strongest nation IC-wise in june 1991, I guess Serbia?

Okey, let's say Serbia has 100 IC. (index, just a figure) How much should Kosova, Vojdovina, Croatia, Bosnia etc have?

Okey, after that; how much manpower was actually used historically in military / semimilitary groups? My thinkings is the following re: manpower:

the manpower we wrote as "vanilla" is as close to historical as possbile; the player - in certain circumstances - can increase the manpower available by certain measures - forced draft in cost of dissent, money loss, etc - in order to reinforce / build new brigades.

And do we go for brigade/battalion or battalion / company? I'd say the later; there's lots of provinces and there will have to be lots units to cover the great areas of the map.

Lastly, since the game is really fast (due to the few nations, lack of events and such) and it goes really quick for the AI to take provinces because of vanilla speed; me think that we should cut down speed DRASTICALLY; like speed 2 for inf (regular infantry, 1 for inf / art), 1 militia and such like and maybe 3 for armor, since AI / player will be able to take massive amounts of provinces because there's so many province; this could also been seen as it took loong time to consilidate conqured territory. This, together with longer combats like in WIF, I think is the best way to simulate the different type of warfare (compared to WW2) that occured during the Yugoslav Wars.

Over and out
Maybe i'm good with map modding, but my modding skills finishes here :eek:o . Knowing this, i will say something trying not to look like a dumb :D
My vision of the mod, is that everybody can handle 5 tech-teams (80+ IC) and everybody can raise and maintain at least an army to protect his own border (That can be made lowering cost on units, or raising IC).
About speed, i can't see units with speed 1-2-3. This can be good for border provinces, but for Serbia moving a unit from Beograd to the macedonian frontier will take years. So my point here is raising the speed.
And for combat... i think we need something diferent than in vanilla. In vanilla what you lose in every combat is organization but little or none strength. We need to raise the strength lost in every combat.
 
Maybe i'm good with map modding, but my modding skills finishes here .

You're to modest; you're not "good", you're excellent with map modding. :D

My vision of the mod, is that everybody can handle 5 tech-teams (80+ IC)

I disagree with this point; I think a small power like RSK shouldn't have 5 tech teams for the sake of it; it becomes to much sandbox, but since we don't even have a tech tree yet, I think we should take this discussion later on in the future.

and everybody can raise and maintain at least an army to protect his own border

But could they IRL? I don't think so; that any further conquest etc wasn't done was rather because of that they didn't want it, politcal, etc etc, but in terms of AI not go rushing in order to take every, single province, it may be needed anyway.

Also, if we're going the historical route; I hardly think any nation (maybe bosnia, croatia and serbia) had enough brigades/battalions to fill all the provinces on the map anyways, so that one we have to think about.. Mainly, do we want in to be a sandbox game in a balkan enviroment or do we want to do a historical game about Yugoslavian wars within the HOI2enginge?

(That can be made lowering cost on units, or raising IC).

Yes of course.

About speed, i can't see units with speed 1-2-3. This can be good for border provinces,

Unfortuantley, we can't decide in which provinces speed is set by, unless we don't model all those provinces as mountains or similar, but I have a suggestion you may like (see below the next qoute):

but for Serbia moving a unit from Beograd to the macedonian frontier will take years.

But there is strategical redployment which will be waaay faster than attacking, so that wouldn't be an issue; as I see it, one gotta differ from two things:

Moving is attack in HOI2: When moving into enemy territory, we don't only calculate the time it would take; but also battle, supress initial counter attacks, set up depots, clearing forests etc until the whole province are "secured" which would take much more time than:

Strategical deployment: The movement of troops via trains, trucks, busses etc into already secured provinces, mainly through the domestic countrie etc

Since I have problems seeing any other good solution on this very hard dilemma, I really think is the best way to handle things, but I can always change but then I want to hear changes that are possible to hadnle within the HOI2-eninge. It is not meant to be a critism of you or anyone, but one must know the constraints of the enginge and how it will handle things, so I like to hear how a better solution yet stll reaching the goals we want that are possible within the enginge.

And for combat... i think we need something diferent than in vanilla. In vanilla what you lose in every combat is organization but little or none strength. We need to raise the strength lost in every combat.

Okey, but was really battles in Yugoslavian wars bloodier (strenght = lives) than WW2? I think not, but I still agree that we should model the battles to be longer and more dragged out compared to vanilla and that will in it turnes result in more loss of strenght..
 
Hax / bad_haggis: When do you estimate that you're finished with coding in all ministers in proper .csv's that's collected?

Well bad_haggins seems have disappeared:( Well mostly of the revolt countrys (RSK, RS, WB, H-B have ministers done but when those countrys aren't implanted I won't send them right now, them will come in 0,02 version:)

About the speed I think we should do as Gukan says above, and still the distance of province to province isn't fixed so that will also slow down the movement.

EDIT: TW remove Montenegro from being puppet of Serbia and if possible make SFRY (Yugoslavia) as a off-map country.
 
Last edited:
With the AI going greedy to any unprotected province, we can't do anything else than making every nation able to build enought units to protect them. I'm not talking of a panzer division, but a militia... In the context we are moving militia can be seen as a group of people defending their own town?
In teach teams i told about the 5 teach teams for everyone but seting the limits in avalaible teachtems and skills of this teachtems. Maybe all countries can be making 5 research at a time, but countries like Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia? will finish the research before only because they will have better teach teams.
I see your point between combat movement and strategic redeployment... but will AI use it wisely?

And battles.. a point for you again, battles sure see lest deaths at YW than in WW2, but from my point of view the vanilla battles didn't model well the WW2 battles, if we can do it better....



And finally. I made a test with Georgia font over the map:

namesgeorgia.png

Georgia
names.png

trixiplan

As you can see i made it fast, as some names didn't match with the ones in the trixiplan map :p
 
Okey, after 0.01 is released (i'm almost finished with it), I don't intend to fix anything more for now because I'm losing my interest in this very quick. It's very hard to make something working when people doesn't send me the things I need so I can mod it in, and since no one else than Gukan and Vaximilian (nothing personal against anyone) knows to actually mod and how the game mechanics works, it is very frustrating that ppl says that they wont X to look like Y without accepting or understanding how the game works or what can be done with the enginge.

So yes, take care of your modder, because in the end of the day, this mods wellnes and popularity doesn't lie if we have this song or that minister pic, it is in the whole, but especially, that the game is fun to play and feels like the Yugoslavian war.

Well bad_haggins seems have disappeared:( Well mostly of the revolt countrys (RSK, RS, WB, H-B have ministers done but when those countrys aren't implanted I won't send them right now, them will come in 0,02 version:)

About the speed I think we should do as Gukan says above, and still the distance of province to province isn't fixed so that will also slow down the movement.

Huh? But then we will have the AI going on a conquer quest in lightning speed, it won't simulate historically how the war was fought and it's just going to be one intense clickfest. And as long as no one else comes with a better idea that knows how it works and discuss for it, I withdraw from this part of the mod, because you gotta know what you're speaking of and how the enginge handles things to understand the consequenses. Sorry.

EDIT: TW remove Montenegro from being puppet of Serbia and if possible make SFRY (Yugoslavia) as a off-map country.

Okey, that's a bad solution (otherwise, Paradox would have made exactly that with Russian SSR, Estonian SSR etc). For gameeninge reasons, we should decide: either make Serbia and Montenegro as SFRY or make Serbia SFRY and make montenegro puppet of them, but having SFRY as an off-map nation is only good for events, nothing else: because you can't (serbia, montenegro) can't produce more than 1000 of each resource before it is sent to off map nation that can't build industry, can't build and deploy units and so forth.

With the AI going greedy to any unprotected province, we can't do anything else than making every nation able to build enought units to protect them.

Okey, but then we're going very alt history, because so much unit, never fought in Yugoslav wars if we don't go down to company level.

I'm not talking of a panzer division, but a militia... In the context we are moving militia can be seen as a group of people defending their own town?

Yes and therefore I say - and said before - that home town defence should be made of GAR (unmovable) and not MIL, MIL should be semi-miltary organisations that can and will move.

In teach teams i told about the 5 teach teams for everyone but seting the limits in avalaible teachtems and skills of this teachtems. ]Maybe all countries can be making 5 research at a time, but countries like Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia?will finish the research before only because they will have better teach teams.

Yes that's a possible but... well, yes, pretty good solution.

I see your point between combat movement and strategic redeployment... but will AI use it wisely?

That can be modded in the AI-files; let's say Serbia want to redeploy it forces from west to east, that can be done, no problem.

And battles.. a point for you again, battles sure see lest deaths at YW than in WW2, but from my point of view the vanilla battles didn't model well the WW2 battles, if we can do it better....

Of course we can and will do the battles better than vanilla; excatly how, is a matter of discussion.

And finally. I made a test with Georgia font over the map:

The winner, I think.
 
Georgia: TeutenburgerW
Trixieplain: Hax, Supaplex
Adler: KaiserMuffin?

Mesina2, El-Fatih, Gukan and JRHINDO what do you think? :)

Change my vote to Trixieplain, so we can go ahead with that task. :D

Also, please, please, please, lads, can we make a last big effort and write the names of the leaders of Vojdovina, so all startning nations have names?

Head of state:
Head of goverment:
Foreign minister:
Armaments minister:
Minister of security:
Minister of intelligence:
Chief of staf:
Chief of army:
chief of air:
chief of navy (same as chief of army, me thinks)

Also, if you have photo (doesn't need to be converted), post it I convert it.
 
Georgia:
Trixieplain: Hax, Supaplex, TeutenburgerW
Adler: KaiserMuffin?

Mesina2, El-Fatih, Gukan and JRHINDO`??
P.S. YOU, yeah you who read this can also vote;)


EDIT: TW we have already for Vojvodina ministers, we don't need that.
I will upload that for you later, I am not on my personal computer.
 
re vojvodina. Wikipedia says:

Socialist Autonomous Province of Vojvodina (1943-1991)

* Jovan Radic (1989 - 1991)

Autonomous Province of Vojvodina (1991-present)
Chairmen of the Executive Council

* Radoman Bozovic (1991 - 23 December 1991)
* Jovan Radiç (23 December 1991 - July 1992)
* Koviljko Lovre (July 1992 - February 1993)

Of those listed, Bozovic a) has an awesome name and b) has his own wiki page. buut will be PM of Serbia...
Božović became the Prime Minister of Serbia on December 23, 1991, after the previous cabinet resigned due to economic failure. As Prime Minister, he was a hardcore bureaucrat, under whom more than half of Serbian economy was under state ownership. After only 100 days in office, the inflation reached a shocking 10,000%. (thats so awesome btw..)