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  1. #41
    One thing I am wondering about, should we make all provinces other than the initial settlements empty? The downside to that is that the empty provinces provide no income or benefits other than territory but the spirit of pure settlement is maintained.

    The other approach would be to maintain a number of slave pops (perhaps keeping them as mechanoids) so that there is some benefit to expansion. The problem is that this loses the spirit of settlement.

    One approach (given the 500 year time span) would be to dramatically increase population growth via faction benefits or inventions. Similar to the Suez Canal event, players might get a Cloning Vats event giving them the option of spending massive funds and goods for a significant population boost. This might be simulated as well by providing abnormally high livability in the initial bases.

    How can one make a hidden province? I don't know if Victoria supports Terra Incognita.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lipovan87 View Post
    One thing I am wondering about, should we make all provinces other than the initial settlements empty? The downside to that is that the empty provinces provide no income or benefits other than territory but the spirit of pure settlement is maintained.

    The other approach would be to maintain a number of slave pops (perhaps keeping them as mechanoids) so that there is some benefit to expansion. The problem is that this loses the spirit of settlement.

    One approach (given the 500 year time span) would be to dramatically increase population growth via faction benefits or inventions. Similar to the Suez Canal event, players might get a Cloning Vats event giving them the option of spending massive funds and goods for a significant population boost. This might be simulated as well by providing abnormally high livability in the initial bases.

    How can one make a hidden province? I don't know if Victoria supports Terra Incognita.
    I´d like to keep the slave pops free, they´d be usable by later robot units for example, in the style of the cyborg-techs and the robot factories the player were later able to build (as well as the wonder).

    About the population growth, I have to concur with the approach, having all but one settlement for each faction empty, as such the player not only decides where he wishes to expand, it also keept with the spirit of the original. This is also, in my opinion, directly connected, as you said, with the population growth, I believe we have to dramatically boost it just for the sake of colonizing the planet, however, it would still have ot correlate to 500 years of settlement. Too much growth, and the planet would look like 20th century earth after a hundred years

    Faction benefits should be applied, in a way as to keep with the original games spirit. The Hive breeds like rabbits, ergo they get +20% (or lower, if too much) population growth, the believers get a event which boosts their wars stats permanently, possibly morale only, to show faith working as a weapon, while the spartans are the same for organization. I am still struggling with ideas how we could in this chord represent the gaians.

    Hmm, somehow the text is written in a very confusing manner...
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  3. #43
    Its just a theory, but if you gave Planet one province that doesn't appear on the map and isn't connected to any other provinces, then Planet couldn't be annexed.

    With regards to growth, you'd probably want massive population growth at the start of the game, but have it slowed down through events and inventions once the population starts to get big.

    Perhaps the Gaians could have cheaper crime-fighting/fungus clearing costs, plus some random mindworm capture events?

    I think each faction should start with three provinces, one producing nutrients, one minerals and one energy. Still leaves plenty of room for expansion.

  4. #44
    Most things can be transferred easily.

    Education benefits can simulate scientific capabilities so the Believers get a hit while the University gets a boost. That can be coded via modifying the research benefits of the various pops for a faction. There is a bit of that in Victoria (original) for England that might be useful.

    Morale is easy enough to simply provide faction boosting events at the start. The same applies to organization. Social cost is more difficult. The Peacekeepers and Believers should get a minor benefit but the question is how. For now we might theorize that they both get a reduced social cost. Benefits to tax and tariff efficiency can account for the Morganites but also they get a hit to growth. The modifier for France can be useful.

    Efficiency is a problem that might be accounted for by a further modification of tax efficiency or via events that check for the size of the of the faction.

    Policing is going to be tricky given the question if we will use rebels similar to mindworms or are going to use Planet as a faction. We might use a social cost modifier for it.

    Planet is the real problem. If we can modify things such that crime is considered pollution or native life, we might be able to modify the events and buildings such that the events coded for high crime turn into pollution and mindworm problems. Railroad and colonization costs are modifiable and might represent the challenges of dealing with increasingly hostile native life.

    Industry might either be represented as modifiers to all RGOs and Factories or as military support costs.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lipovan87 View Post
    One thing I am wondering about, should we make all provinces other than the initial settlements empty? The downside to that is that the empty provinces provide no income or benefits other than territory but the spirit of pure settlement is maintained.
    This is very simple, Just place 4X99000 labourers in the initial province (only 4 not 5 as the size of the RGO will then increase automatically at game start), after 1 month the pops wil split and you will have 8 pops in a province where the RGO can only work 5. That will leave 3 pops unemployed, these will migrate to empty provinces once you colonize them and voilá you have the perfect settlement feeling. I know this works as I tried it for an aborted civilization mod for Vicky a while ago.

  6. #46
    The problem with making it that high is that the initial settlement in Alpha Centauri was of about 1000 people at the outset.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lipovan87 View Post
    The problem with making it that high is that the initial settlement in Alpha Centauri was of about 1000 people at the outset.
    Population added by events during the first 20 years? Forceful heavy breeding policys?

    Edit:
    Or can we divide the numbers of Victoria by 10? So, instead of 40000 people in one pop, you´d need only 4000 to split it?
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donnie D View Post
    Population added by events during the first 20 years? Forceful heavy breeding policys?

    Edit:
    Or can we divide the numbers of Victoria by 10? So, instead of 40000 people in one pop, you´d need only 4000 to split it?
    You'd have to alter the .exe file, I believe.

  9. #49
    They made me do it! Donnie D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palisadoes View Post
    You'd have to alter the .exe file, I believe.
    Well, I´ll be damned then, we will have to make do with the normal numbers. Seems we HAVE to take some freedoms with the original

    Besides, we have to alter the exe anyway, if not for the timespan, but I doubt it to be okay, to mod it in a way, that we´d be able to modify something so substantial. Or?
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  10. #50
    One of the key elements of SMAC was the ability to engage in genocide. When my forces were relatively weak, I always made sure to engage in the most savage war tactics the game would allow, like butchering everyone in a city and using chemical weapons, while focusing my forces to ensure success in the attacks, without having to keep anybody on the defensive. How will you model that?

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by scottland View Post
    Great idea for a mod.
    In terms of resources, a province RGO should be either nutrient, mineral or energy, or perhaps xenofongus depending on how you represent it in game. If you want more variety you could add fresh water. Everything else should be made by factories - some suggestions: Food, Colony pods, Armor/Shields, Weapons, Chassis, Reactors, Prefabricated Shelters, Terraforming equipment, Ships, Aircraft, Satellites, Androids, Science, Psych, Psi. (The last three are abstract goods that are consumed as luxury goods by your pops.)

    I like that.


    Pop types:
    Capitalists -> ?
    Aristocrats -> ?
    Clergy -> Empaths
    Clerks -> Thinkers
    Officers -> Commanders
    Craftsmen -> Builders
    Soldiers
    Farmers -> Nutrient collectors
    Labourers -> Miners
    Slaves -> Mechanoids
    Why exactly shouldn't capitalists be simply capitalists (same for aristocrats)? I mean, in terms of realism, why should society in Alpha Century not also be able to have a capitalist class? Assuming it's not the hive for example. I mean, you can't really make the exact same game in Victoria, so you have to be somewhat guided by plain reality as to how things should work.


    Nice ideas about politics/religion, but factions like the Spartans should not get Communist parties (nor be able to hold elections, if possible),
    Why? The actual historical spartans voted and were, for all intents and purposes, communists. The game spartans seem a very "self-reliant", individualistic sort, so they could be some type of republic.

  12. #52
    HOI2 Arma Patch Prj Manager coreymas's Avatar
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    Is this going to be a free mod?
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  13. #53
    They made me do it! Donnie D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coreymas View Post
    Is this going to be a free mod?
    What is the difference to a "normal" mod?

    Edit: Sorry for no updates on status etc. but I have some heavy timeschedule with exams coming up. Will do more soon
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  14. #54
    HOI2 Arma Patch Prj Manager coreymas's Avatar
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    No my question is -- will you offer this game mod for free or will you have to pay for it?
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrergsanchez View Post
    Why exactly shouldn't capitalists be simply capitalists (same for aristocrats)? I mean, in terms of realism, why should society in Alpha Century not also be able to have a capitalist class? Assuming it's not the hive for example. I mean, you can't really make the exact same game in Victoria, so you have to be somewhat guided by plain reality as to how things should work.

    Why? The actual historical spartans voted and were, for all intents and purposes, communists. The game spartans seem a very "self-reliant", individualistic sort, so they could be some type of republic.
    I agree on the Capitalists, in some sort of way, rename them Colonial Capitalists and change the pic(use a little morganite if possible, hmm, where to get such a pic ), but yes, they are the very morganite embodiement of society.

    The Spartans of SMAC are a society build on order and militaristic general values, hierarchy stands above everything, discipline, unity, strength trough organisation and superior training, so I can understand the call for no communist party for them, as well as no elections possibly.

    About Leadership in General:
    What has to be understood is, that the faction leader in the game never changes. The faction leader is always the very embodiement of the ideology the faction represents, and thus also stands for the society they build. As such, even elections only change the ministers, never the head of state, to speak in HOI-terms. Also it drives the need for some, not even to have such a thing as elections, namely The Hive and the Spartans (Though here we could enter parties as to simulate different AI-Ideas as well as strategies, like Naval Entrepreneur party, or militaristic land expansion party etc.)

    Quote Originally Posted by coreymas View Post
    No my question is -- will you offer this game mod for free or will you have to pay for it?
    I
    I... , I have to admit, the idea to pay for a mod is abhorrent to me. How would you come to such a conclusion?

    Quote Originally Posted by andrergsanchez View Post
    One of the key elements of SMAC was the ability to engage in genocide. When my forces were relatively weak, I always made sure to engage in the most savage war tactics the game would allow, like butchering everyone in a city and using chemical weapons, while focusing my forces to ensure success in the attacks, without having to keep anybody on the defensive. How will you model that?
    Genocide would have to be simulated by gas warfare and such. However, I am not sure, this is a subject we want to enter upon yet. Besides, I believe the necessity to emulate something inhuman as genocidal warfare to be very, ver very very small.
    Forgive me if our opinions on this differ.
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  16. #56
    HOI2 Arma Patch Prj Manager coreymas's Avatar
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    I did not insinuate that you would request payment.

    However i would like you to think of this.

    SMAC is not an open source or freeware product. Someone actually owns it's intellectual rights. You are using a massive amount of its material in your mod. Have you contacted the owner to get permission to use their material?
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  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Donnie D View Post
    The Spartans of SMAC are a society build on order and militaristic general values, hierarchy stands above everything, discipline, unity, strength trough organisation and superior training, so I can understand the call for no communist party for them, as well as no elections possibly.
    The actual spartans were also a society built on order, discipline and general military values, with hierarchy standing above everything, unity and blah blah blah. They had elections.


    What has to be understood is, that the faction leader in the game never changes. The faction leader is always the very embodiement of the ideology the faction represents, and thus also stands for the society they build. As such, even elections only change the ministers, never the head of state, to speak in HOI-terms. Also it drives the need for some, not even to have such a thing as elections, namely The Hive and the Spartans (Though here we could enter parties as to simulate different AI-Ideas as well as strategies, like Naval Entrepreneur party, or militaristic land expansion party etc.)
    Here is how I see it.

    The general policies of the government would be determined by the party.

    So the spartans starting as a monarchy would choose between following the model of Sparta and enslaving other cultures (Spartan Party, Fascist, Interventionism, Protectionism, Slavery, Atheism, Jingoism) or trying to assimilate them (Roman Party, reactionary, interventionism, free trade, full citizenship, pluralism, pro-military), or trying to follow a more "survivalist" attitude (Survivalist Party, Conservative, laissez-faire, protectionism, full citizenship, pluralism, jingoism).

    The morgans on the other hand, starting as a constitutional monarchy, would have to choose between free market capitalism (Entrepreneurial Party, anarco-liberal, laissez-faire, free market, full citizenship, pluralism, pro-military), corporate rule (Corporate Party, reactionary, State Capitalism, free market, full citizenship, atheism, pro-military) or a third middle of the road system (Capitalist Party, liberal, interventionism, protectionism, full citizenship, secularized, pacifist).

    And on, and on.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Donnie D View Post
    Genocide would have to be simulated by gas warfare and such. However, I am not sure, this is a subject we want to enter upon yet. Besides, I believe the necessity to emulate something inhuman as genocidal warfare to be very, ver very very small.
    Forgive me if our opinions on this differ.
    Does gas warfare kill civilians in victoria? I don't think it is the most important thing ever, and a perfect good mod can be made without touching on the isue. However...

    The primary fact of politics (not to mention general warfare) is that the other side can kill you, both as an individual, and as a group. The primary reason the party that lost the election accepts the rule of the party that won it, and the party that won the election doesn't do whatever it wants, is because it realizes that if it chose to start a civil war, it could be wiped out. That is why we have constitutions, so that all sides agree not to push over a certain line. Without democide, or genocide, politics loses all meaning. It is horrible, but it is not in any way "inhuman", in the sense of being somehow a deviation from humanity, and it is a reality both today, yesterday, and certainly in a future planetary colony where all established rules and systems have been abandoned, not to mention religion, and no overwhelmingly powerful force is capable of enforcing a code of conduct that says "Don't do this". Genocide was an option in the game for a reason. Alpha Century was essentially a planetary nation in a civil war, between people who believed in different kinds of life, and were not willing to tolerate opinions to the contrary. They accepted truces, but in their hearts they knew -they- were right, and everyone else would eventually have to follow them, or die.

  19. #59
    Despite the harshness of incessant war, generally rulers have settled on simply maintaining dominance and eventual assimilation to settle irreconcilable differences. Genocide has taken place from antiquity to modernity but the cultural abilities to assimilate people now make it mostly useless for any ideological aim and all the more inhuman.

    I see no need or good in simulating it.

    The copyrighted material is worrying though. Could we contact Firaxis for permission?

    We need not keep the term "elections" and the government names. We can change them to suit the context. Elections might become cabinet changes. Monarchy might become Personal Rule and whatnot.

  20. #60
    I'm not going to start a debate on the issue. These are my last words on the matter.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lipovan87 View Post
    Despite the harshness of incessant war, generally rulers have settled on simply maintaining dominance and eventual assimilation to settle irreconcilable differences.
    You might be able to "assimilate" if you are a majority and "they" are a minority that in unwilling to resist the process of assimilation to the degree necessary to avoid it. If however, you are a minority, or they resist, things are not quite that simple. Perpetual civil war/unrest (until political separation) or appeasement (you give in to keep the peace) is usually the result. Often, the rulers are the ones who are assimilated. In post-war terms, it would be a fairly simple matter of keeping militancy very high for non-national culture pops (because they hated your laws) so they were always rebelling, emigrating, or as the case may be, merging with national culture pops in the process of assimilation. However, the primary value to the game is the use of ruthlesness during warfare. Burning cities and such, so that the enemy is weakened even if you don't manage to hold on to the city. It might be too difficult to code a non deterministic "Pillage/Burn" event, but I believe it was a key part of the game.


    Genocide has taken place from antiquity to modernity but the cultural abilities to assimilate people now make it mostly useless for any ideological aim and all the more inhuman.
    Five words: World War Two and Nuclear Holocaust. The idea that we have "grown out of" gemocide because of "cultural abilities to assimilate" is nonsense, it hasn't been that long since "civilized" nations were firebombing cities. The threat of the ultimate, universal genocide is basically the one thing that has kept a relatively peaceful condition in the world.

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